26-09-2003 22:33									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Stupid question: How are the Webringers to know that CGN got Republic from us, if we ask CGN as part of the deal not to talk about it? Maybe we gave CFC contact.....maybe they researched it on their own...

Simple fact is that they won't unless CGN tells them so or we do. CGN could be researching it right now. Maybe we should include this clause in our trade. The "no tell" clause.

	27-09-2003 06:27									#152
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Regarding the chat with GWT:

A good job for the most part, but I am very troubled by this proposal:

quote: [12:18] MasterZen: well, we don't really want to risk bad relationships with either of you [12:18] MasterZen: if we trade techs with them you will get mad, and if we trade techs with you they will get mad. [12:18] Zayxus: german: komplizierte Angelegenheit [12:19] BigFree: sounds like: complicated entanglement [12:19] MasterZen: obviously we will not allow them to pressure us with any treaties we have signed with you [12:21] MasterZen: I have an idea [12:21] [GWT]feanor0815: can talk for for me that i understand this but dont know what the team will say ok - idea ? [12:21] MasterZen: we can agree "not to sign any agreements with the other while you are at war". [12:22] MasterZen: and since we made the chivalry - mono deal BEFORE the war, it doesn't count

I don't think we should agree to not "sign any agreements with [CGN] while [GWT & CGN] are at war." We really limit ourselves and might really p*ss off both sides by doing this. We should promise not to take sides in their war and to honor all treaties and promises regardless of the war. But it almost sounds like we're telling GWT that if they go to war with CGN, we won't trade with CGN. That's bad.

I hope I'm only overreacting to this. Ultimately, MZ may have to take the fall for this statement by saying that the team overruled him, because I do not want us to agree to NOT trade with CGN.

--Togas

	27-09-2003 08:05									#153
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I'm sorry if I didn't make it more clear on what I had intended. First of all, we haven't agreed to anything yet, and it was merely an idea by which we could fake neutrality while doing all our deals beforehand.

Secondly, has anyone stopped to think with what face we're going to tell GWT we will maintain perfect trading relationships with them AND CGN yet somehow tell them NOT to trade with GCA?

This is something like "wait, don't trade with our enemy, oh, but allow us to trade with yours"

Next time we talk to GWT we will be at war with GCA. If we ask GWT for a similar agreement (not to trade with those we are at war with) they lose, simply because we are already at war and they will not be able to make any pre-war arrangements should they agree to this.

See the logic of it all? For all I'm concerned we can try and get a deal for Invention from CGN as soon as possible no matter if the tech they plan to trade it for is as far off as Theo. As long as we do the signing before the war occurs, we're off the hook.

Finally, we can even go to CGN and tell them about this. It might even prompt them to delay their war a bit by the time it takes them to ratify any long-term tech deal. A bit more time allows CGN to transition to republic, and GWT to get any defensive preparations ready which means the war will be tougher for both of them.

	27-09-2003 10:03									#154
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But they're already at war.

--Togas

	27-09-2003 10:54									#155
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So?

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=97930

	28-09-2003 12:59									#156
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news:

quote: Hi Master Zen, fine Chat yesterday. But I think my last idea came to late since during chat people decided to destroy the nearest Riders of Netatolia. But you can tell them in any case we would stop fighting immideatly if they 'll stop their advance and retreat. I'll send them one right know. feanor0815

Proposed response:

quote: Feanor0815, We appreciate your message informing us of such terrible news. Our team is highly gratious of your honesty and straight-forwardness, and wish to reassure you that Apolyton will continue to act in the spirit of colaboration and frienship which has characterized our short but gratifying relationship. I will take advantage of this moment to re-state our proposal for a Chivalry for Invention deal. We have been informed by CFC that they will take longer in discovering Monotheism than your own team, thus, trading for Chivarly is a far more efficient exchange for the both of us. Finally, we will be in a position to offer you the world map which includes a map of CGN's territory. We would like to exchange it for your own map and as well for a small compensation of XXXg since it will include the complete map of your enemy. Best regards, and may fortune smile upon your team in its great ordeal. -MZ

Question: do we want to offer the map yet? should we wait until we get the save and check out CGN's territory? please discuss.

	28-09-2003 19:40									#157
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Let's get all the info in OUR camp and look it over before making any offers. We are the masters of information processing; let's play to our strengths before potentially making an offer we might regret.

	29-09-2003 00:27									#158
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I agree with FP that we should see what is going on from CGN's map before offering it. Other than that it sounds fine.

Side note: A few spelling errors "gracious" and "collaboration"

	29-09-2003 00:35									#159
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ok, I'll send without the map part, thanks for the corrections too

	07-10-2003 01:15									#160
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Now that the GWT may be nearing GCA territory (and the fact that we haven't gotten an answer regarding Chiv-Inv):

quote: Hello Feanor0815, Just a quick notice, since we have received no reply on your part regarding the Invention-Chivalry deal we were wondering if the deal was accepted by your team or not. We understand you have been busy with the war so don't worry, but we just wanted an answer to be sure. We would also like to inform you that Apolyton and the Gamecatcher Alliance (GCA) are now in a state of war also. It seems almost a coincidence that our two continents are fighting amongst themselves at the same time. We expect a difficult fight against a very powerful foe, but are confident in our eventual victory We wish you luck in your war against CGN. Until next time, best regards. -Master Zen Ambassador

	18-10-2003 05:06									#161
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Guess who FINALLY answered?

quote: Hello Master Zen, we have a short answer about Netatolian, have you tried to convince Neta to stop war as proposed ? Cause we got an ingame offer of peace but no attendant mail nor an answer to our notes. For we are a peaceful nation which wants to prevent war in our whole world we wanted to ask if there is a way for you to end war ? What would be your needs for this ? Perhaps we can make peace on both continents as we started war on both. Furthermore we like to ask how war did started. We heard some rumors that really shook our trust in our growing relationship and endangering the trades we intended. feanor0815 webringen ambassador

Proposed response:

1) First of all we tell them that we did talk to CGN about ending the war but they apparently decided to continue it as long as GWT didn't offer them peace themselves. Now that they did, CGN accepted.

2) We must tell them that for the moment we are not interested in peace with GCA simply because should we do, GCA will do all in their power to destroy us later.

3) The truth. We attacked them because they were becoming too powerful. They had destroyed CDG and came close to doing the same with CFC. We simply could not allow CFC to be destroyed so we geared up for war against them. That's it, no grudges, no ill-feelings, simply what people in Civ have to do when they fear their neighbor is getting waay too powerful. Something LIKE YOU BASTARDS DID TO FIRAXIS!!!



Oh and an observation, by asking us the second point it is more than obvious that they have contact with GCA and GCA asked them to mediate the conflict. Also makes me think that it was GWT which gave Lit to GCA.

	18-10-2003 05:47									#162
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Just by the way GWT is acting, it appears they want to be our enemies.

	18-10-2003 13:32									#163
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Tell them the truth. We felt that we had to go to war to win this game and that we have to continue this war unitl we have claimed GCA's lands in order to give us a chance at winning.

This is a game. War in Civ does not draw blood or kill real people, we have no reasons to show sympathy or apologize for our actions. We are in it to win it!

	18-10-2003 14:57									#164
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This part is priceless:

quote: For we are a peaceful nation which wants to prevent war in our whole world

say those trigger-happy german warmongers who already butt ****ed Firaxis!

	18-10-2003 20:37									#165
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My favorite part is where they talk about how they started the war on their continent, but they've heard rumors about how we started our war, and it concerns them deeply. And we should be worried about THEM trusting US?

	18-10-2003 21:25									#166
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We should tell them that we agree peace is a very important thing, and that we are Keepers of the Peace; but sometimes you are required to stand up for yourself, and since GCA had crushed CDG, and nearly CFC, we were defending the rights of our neighbors, and preventing GCA from eventually threatening us as well.

(Heck. That's almost even truthful. Sorta.)

	18-10-2003 22:36									#167
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MZ,

Your idea for a response, written in the proper tone, should work. Go with it

	19-10-2003 00:33									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon We should tell them that we agree peace is a very important thing, and that we are Keepers of the Peace; but sometimes you are required to stand up for yourself, and since GCA had crushed CDG, and nearly CFC, we were defending the rights of our neighbors, and preventing GCA from eventually threatening us as well. (Heck. That's almost even truthful. Sorta.)

That sounds like a lie to me, even though there's truth in it.
To say that we felt like we're next and instead attacked preemptively would sound much better. Not a word about how we keep the rights of our neighbours or we'll immediately look like weasels.

	19-10-2003 01:20									#169
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MZ's response is good.

Whatever we say, we should subtily remind them of their genocide of Fraxis gives them no moral high ground to stand on.

Of course, we shouldn't SAY that to them, but subtily imply it and, most importantly, not feel compelled by guilt or lame accusations and innuendos that we need to justify our actions. This is a game that both of our teams want to win. The path to winning is on the battlefield and all of us know it.

--Togas

	19-10-2003 02:47									#170
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Official proposed response:

quote: Hello feanor0815, In response to your message, first of all we immediately talked to CGN when your war started about trying to find a way to end it. Unfortunately, CGN decided to continue the war and there was nothing we could do about it. Perhaps their in-game peace offer was a mistake, as you know, when you are looking at the resources of your enemy in the diplomatic screen you must have a peace treaty on the table. It seems that the game never takes it away and it appears when your enemy plays his save the next turn. This has happened with GCA too. As for our war with GCA right now we are not in a position to negotiate for with them. Our reasons for going to war were simple: GCA had become simply too powerful for us not to do anything about it. They had destroyed CDG and were close to eliminating CFC also. Our relations with CFC have been great and we would not sit idly and watch how our friends were crushed. In short, it was a decision taken because of the threat GCA represented to us in the medium and long term. All of us are here to win this game, and we felt GCA to be the biggest challange. In Civ sometimes you have to go to war to accomplish this, it is not so different to what GWT did with Firaxis when you realized they had iron and you didn't. We know there is a big risk by being at war but it something we felt we had to do, just like you. Regardless of all this, we trust we will be victorious and that peace will once again reign in our continent. However, like I said before, we have no intentions of this war interfering with our relationship with your team especially with regards with the technology trades we have discussed previously. Best regards and good luck -Master Zen Ambassador

like it?

	19-10-2003 02:59									#171
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Great

However, I would edit the following part:

quote: Our relations with CFC have been great and we would not sit idly and watch how our friends were crushed. In short, it was a decision taken because of the threat GCA represented to us in the medium and long term.

These statements don't connect very well IMHO. 'We would not let GCA crush our friends CFC", followed by "We attacked GCA because they posed a risk to us" leaves a blank in the middle.
I realize that what you meant to say was that we would not sit idly and watch GCA crush CFC because we are their friends, but also because if GCA eats up CFC then they become even more powerful and more of a threat, but you can't expect GWT to make the same logical leap. You must provide the missing information somehow, e.g. by saying "we would not let GCA destroy CFC because they are our friends, and because we feared that we would be next".

	19-10-2003 03:12									#172
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Looks good.

Grammar issue or too many words here:

"not in a position to negotiate for with them"

Also:

"felt GCA to be the biggest challange"

Challenge is splled wrong, but I think "threat" would be a better word to use. Makes it sound like we are really just protecting ourselves, and is consistent with the use of the same word in the previous sentence.

" we have no intentions of this war interfering with our relationship with your team"

Maybe something along the lines of - "we do not expect this war to interfere with ..."

Otherwise..

	19-10-2003 04:27									#173
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It needs some grammatical editing. Otherwise, it's awesome!

	22-10-2003 14:26									#175
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Glad to see all those points we came up with in chat are in there. The Firaxis reference almost looks a little blunt, but I'll allow it - after all, they seem to be quite blunt with their broken English communiques as well, don't they?

As long as it is clear at the end we do not feel threatened by GWT and assure them we hope to continue our cooperation with them, then it is not all that important that this be perfect.

	23-10-2003 04:21									#176
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Important addenda: we are soon to cross GWT waters with PoA - we really need to see if we can get an agreement with them that we can do this.

MZ or whoever is handling the message - can you add something asking them about whether they mind signing an agreement to allow us to do this? Maybe just that we request permission to traverse their waters, and mention a successful agreement with CFC - that we each may travel through the waters of the other, but agree there shall be no unloading onto sovereign land within our cultural radii.

	23-10-2003 04:34									#177
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Yes, good. Can Dubya's point be included?

	23-10-2003 10:10									#178
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I already sent the message (with Beta and Shiber's suggestions). I can send them another one no problem.

	23-10-2003 10:36									#179
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Good idea.

	23-10-2003 22:52									#180
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There's been a lot of murmuring and speculation about GWT helping GCA.

Can we organize our assumptions and suspicions, compare with the evidence, and see if there's any truth to them?

We have a major policy decision to make with regards to GWT vs CGN. How the two team act with regards to our war on GCA will be a major factor in determining how we act with regards to their war.

--Togas