13-02-2004 21:45									#151
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You are correct.

However, there was a stack of 8 at Boston 2-3 and a stack of 9 at Boston 2. There was only 1 Ansar scout at Boston 2-2.

	13-02-2004 21:52									#152
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Right, but they killed 10 knights at Boston 22, right? So that "scout" was the final victorious Ansar, which had to have come from the stack of 16 from Boston 441.

The remaining victorious Ansars from B441 ended up on B2, since the only way they could have hit CGN's knights was to move 6, 6, 2 (2 being the attack move), thus using all their moves. So between the 9 at B2 and 1 at B22, we account for 10 Ansars from B441.

The Ansars at B23 could be from anywhere. They could be leftovers from B441, or they could be reinforcements from the north. How many of that stack of 8 are hurt?

EDIT: nevermind, I'm just confusing myself. Obviously, any of the Ansars near Boston that are either undamaged or have only 1hp damage* could have come from "Hi Guys!" The more badly beat up ones have to be from B441.

* - IIRC, CGN had a couple of knights fortified in Boston, so moving past Boston from Hi Guys could trigger a ZoC hit, for 1hp of damage max.

-Arrian

	13-02-2004 22:02									#153
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Brilliant stuff by ND, err GWT, by the way. Hiding their losses (if any) like that.

-Arrian

	13-02-2004 22:02									#154
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Knights don't have ZoC.

You're right about GWT's range. The damaged units have to have been from GWT's previous stack (16 units). All undamaged ones (excluding the one at Boston 2-2) could have come from the fort city.

There were a total of 8 Ansar which are at full HP within range of GWT's fort city (before CGN laid the smackdown on their Boston 2 stack). There are also 9 injured Ansar, which must have come from GWT's old stack.

My guess is that GWT did lose about half their previous stack.

	13-02-2004 22:03									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Brilliant stuff by ND, err GWT, by the way. Hiding their losses (if any) like that. -Arrian

Bongo is their MOW. He's good at what he does.

	13-02-2004 22:05									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Knights don't have ZoC. You're right about GWT's range. The damaged units have to have been from GWT's previous stack (16 units). All undamaged ones (excluding the one at Boston 2-2) could have come from the fort city. There were a total of 8 Ansar which are at full HP within range of GWT's fort city (before CGN laid the smackdown on their Boston 2 stack). There are also 9 injured Ansar, which must have come from GWT's old stack. My guess is that GWT did lose about half their previous stack.

I thought that fortified fastmovers DID have ZoC.

-Arrian

	13-02-2004 22:08									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I thought that fortified fastmovers DID have ZoC. -Arrian

Nope. Cav are the first units to have ZoC.

	13-02-2004 22:13									#158
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I'm not so sure about that, Trip. I'm almost positive that if you try to run a unit around a *fortified* fastmover, it gets a shot at you.

I think the distinction Cav have is they get it whether forted or not.

Now I wanna test it, but I'm at "work"

-Arrian

	13-02-2004 22:44									#159
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Grrr...

Tried simulating it and PTW keeps crashing no matter how I do it.

I do know that I've fought a lot of wars and have never seen any ZoC from units before Cav.

	13-02-2004 22:49									#160
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You just need to look in the editor. Knights do not have ZOC.

	13-02-2004 22:51									#161
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Ok, fine, I guess I'm wrong. I stand corrected.

-Arrian

	14-02-2004 00:56									#162
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Trip: You are cazy if you think GWT did not attack CGN's stack at 2-2 of Boston from 2 of Boston. According to what you are saying they would have had to attack from 2-1 of Boston which is not possible given where they started from on the previous turn.

There are now 5 1/4 Absars at 2-1 Boston that retreated to that position due to attacks from CGN MI's. The other 7 were moved there from 1-1-4 of Boston (origninal stack of 16) and from 4-4 of Boston or a little further up the road network.

Only the Ansar from that stack of 16 at 1-1-4 of Boston could have contributed to the attack at 2-2 of Boston. No others had the range.

Now, count how many Ansars CGN killed at 2 of Boston. CGN said they killed 4. Now add that 4 to the number that retereated from 2 of Boston and went to 2-1 and you get 9. Now add the 1 lone Ansar at 2-2 of Boston and you get the 10 Ansars that attacked CGN's 10 Knights. Since all 10 of the Ansars that attacked CGN's Knights can be accounted for at the begining of CGN's turn one can say that GWT did not lose a battle against GWT's Knights while GWT was attacking this last turn.

I have provided a visual to help you see this.

	14-02-2004 02:50									#163
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BF, the Ansars at Boston 114 obviously are the only ones that could have attacked CGN's knights. But why do you assume only 10 of them were used in the attack?

Why not all 16, with 6 losses?

-Arrian

	14-02-2004 05:27									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian BF, the Ansars at Boston 114 obviously are the only ones that could have attacked CGN's knights. But why do you assume only 10 of them were used in the attack? Why not all 16, with 6 losses? -Arrian

I asked miccofl to provide me with the names of the units in the stack of 16 and using that as a reference to the units left I have deduced (if GWT did not rename units) that they could have lost 5 Ansars on the attack.

	14-02-2004 05:30									#165
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So, the total count for the war is 10 Ansars lost for GWT with 5 down to 1/4; CGN has lost 10 Knights and will lose the 1 MI 2 of Boston.

Last edited by BigFree on 14-02-2004 at 05:52

	14-02-2004 05:57									#166
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GWT has also lost 1 Pike.

	14-02-2004 05:59									#167
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Both GWT and CGN have lost units prior to this; I'm just speaking to this particular turn.

	14-02-2004 06:09									#168
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Both GWT and CGN have lost units prior to this; I'm just speaking to this particular turn.

So am I.

	14-02-2004 06:20									#169
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Very nice work BF

--Togas

	14-02-2004 12:20									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Very nice work BF --Togas

Thanks Togas. I like detective work sometimes.

	14-02-2004 19:45									#171
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GWT can either attack Agincourt with 9 Ansars in 3 turns, or 26 Ansars in 4. Undoubtedly they will attack with 26. Where did all they GWT MI's go? They will probably not use them in the battle of Agincourt as they will take too long though. What can GCN get into Agincourt before GWT attacks? Waterloo should be well defended also just in case, but that will take them an additional turn to go that route, and they would leave their Ansars open to counterattack from Agincourt and Waterloo before they could attack.

	15-02-2004 00:54									#172
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Many of GWT's Ansar have only 1 HP left (6 of them on the battlefield now). That means GWT only has 13 full HP Ansar visible right now (19 total). Where did you get 26 from?

	15-02-2004 01:11									#173
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Yes, they will wait to heal those units; I'm pretty sure of that.

I think Civerdan is counting all the Ansars I have in the pic. CiverDan: The stack of 17 is no longer there. Some of them died in the attack on CGN and some of them died when CGN counter attacked at 2 of Boston and some are in the new stack 1-2 of Boston.

There a only 14 Ansar right now in sight. 5 of whihc are damaged (1/4) 1 is at (3/4).

Trip: Where do you get 19 from?

	17-02-2004 04:00									#174
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There are at least 3 in GWT's uber stack 8 of Boston.

	17-02-2004 04:02									#175
	Email from Miccofl: Support Apolyton

quote: They suck. From GWT to mongoose201: We have been holding this turn longer than usual for a number of reasons. One of them is probably no more than a glitch in the UI. The other two are about the actions of other teams At the end of last turn, we left 9 Ansar warriors outside the Netatolian city of 'Boston'. This turn, we discovered that 4 were missing(dead) and 5 retreated to the nearest forest. That was only to be expected. What we didn't expect, was that boston was no longer a Netatolian city, it belonged to Apolytonia. The units that attacked our ansars were all gone, as were all other units inside boston. Over 40 units had simply been 'teleported' back to Netatolias Capitol. All that was left was one lonely Med.Inf.... We do not object to the fact that Netatolia are giving away their cities, but in doing that, they did 2 things that we DO object to. Issue #1 Attacking and moving in the same turn with a 1-move unit. Med.Ins only got 1 movement point. When they attack, that point is spent and they can't do anything until next turn. Netatolia did a minimum of 9 attacks on our Ansars. Only one of those units stayed in place like it should. The rest 'teleported' away, AFTER their movement point were exhausted. Issue #2 The use of city gifting to 'teleport' units on the battlefield. Anyone who study last turns save will notice that 'Boston' are under siege and that units inside will not be able to get away without fighting a major battle. In short, GWT had turned 'Boston' into Netatolias own private Stalingrad. This was quickly turned around when the city was given away and all units inside 'teleported' back to the Netatolian capitol. Unit-jumping has been done before in this game when GCAs remaining forces 'teleported' to their new home inside GWTs territory. The big difference here is that GCAs war with CFC/Apolyton were already lost. Our war with Netatolia has just begun. Though if one would really want to refere to the APO/GCA analogy, it would have been Apo, who must have given cities to neta (APO / GWT = spectators, neta / GCA = loser of the war) and that's only, when neta's forces are already clearly defeated and their cities lost. CFC/Apolyton can rightly feel cheated of their prey, but they cannot claim it changed the outcome of the war. The outcome of our war against Netatolia is far from decided, the use of such dubious tactics will greatly influence it. We demand that the turn is replayed WITHOUT any unit jumping. Particulary those units which employed a 'double action' exploit.

From mongoose201 to GWT:

quote: I knew beforehand what CGN was doing, just as I did when Lucky came to me before GCA jumped to your continent. I approved CGN's move, the same way I did GCA's. Hehe, they (poly, cfc, and cgn) were livid over it and demanded that the turns be replayed.... poly and cfc because of the escape, cgn because of the addition of more military which would likely oppose them. I told them what I have to also tell you at this time, that I cannot ask them to replay turns in which the actions they have taken have already been approved. I fully understand that you have concerns about the medieval infantry which jumped. But the act of the "unit jump" itself is so unnatural to begin with, that the movement points become near irrelevant. The most ridiculous part is that units can teleport from one part of the map to another before flight. Right now, I wish I had not approved the move to begin with when it was first brought up, but I did, so here we are. I would also like to content with one thing that was said: that the previous use of this "teleportation" didn't change the course of a war. That's not entirely true, if it hadn't been used, GCA would have likely been completely destroyed. Since they did use it, they live to this part of the game. I know that this isn't what you wanted to hear, but I can't contradict an approved maneuver.

	17-02-2004 04:05									#176
	Chat between miccofl and mongoose Got spare money?

quote: [02/15 17:38] *** mongoose201 (mongoose20@29007B9D.E0BF1033.62ABF5AC.IP) has joined channel #isdg-Embassy1 [02/15 17:38] [mongoose201] micco? you around? [02/15 17:40] * mongoose201 taps fingers [02/15 17:45] [miccofl] hello [02/15 17:45] [mongoose201] howdy [02/15 17:45] [miccofl] you should bark [02/15 17:45] [miccofl] (&) [02/15 17:45] [mongoose201] I did [02/15 17:45] [miccofl] What's up? [02/15 17:45] [mongoose201] Was poly supposed to abandon the cities you gifted? [02/15 17:46] [miccofl] that was up to them, the deal was unconditional [02/15 17:46] [miccofl] they elected to keep them [02/15 17:46] [mongoose201] well, they did not... I'll pm you the message I just got from zeri [02/15 17:46] [miccofl] rather intesting names too [02/15 17:46] [mongoose201] yes, they were [02/15 17:46] [miccofl] they didn't keep them? [02/15 17:47] [mongoose201] they did [02/15 17:47] [miccofl] I know [02/15 17:48] [mongoose201] sent [02/15 17:49] [mongoose201] it takes a lot of nerve for them to object to this [02/15 17:51] [mongoose201] I will let you know my thoughts.... the poly/GCA war's end was still ongoing... their using the move did impact the course of the game in that the GCA units still live, where they would not if they had not used the move [02/15 17:53] [miccofl] Our opinion is that once the exploint was used, it was fair game for use again and by other teams. While we do consider it an exploit, it is, part of this game and as such cannot be discounted from tactical use. [02/15 17:54] [miccofl] It was that thinking that convinced apolyton to accept those cities, they were strongly opposed at first. [02/15 17:54] [mongoose201] I agree... also, how do we know that GCA didn't also use a previously moved unit... we don't [02/15 17:54] [miccofl] exactly [02/15 17:55] [mongoose201] Not my business, but I wished they had abandoned them, personally... but I can understand why they didn't [02/15 17:55] [miccofl] they had several reasons [02/15 17:55] [mongoose201] I know... if GWT attacks, that bring more WW into the equation [02/15 17:56] [miccofl] or in the case of apolyton, war happiness [02/15 17:56] [mongoose201] ah, yes [02/15 17:56] [miccofl] it will counteract some of the ww they get from GCA [02/15 17:58] [mongoose201] that's not the only reason they are holding the turn... there is a strange quirk with their advisor we are looking at as well [02/15 17:58] [miccofl] uh oh [02/15 17:58] [miccofl] F4? [02/15 17:59] [mongoose201] f4... which one is that again? [02/15 17:59] [miccofl] Foriegn [02/15 17:59] [mongoose201] ah.. no not that [02/15 17:59] [miccofl] that's a relief [02/15 17:59] [miccofl] F3 crash? [02/15 17:59] [miccofl] military [02/15 17:59] [mongoose201] when I open the turn and check the happiness in their cities, then go to the domestic advisor, then exit, the happiness in their cities changes [02/15 18:00] [mongoose201] it's the weirdest thing I've ever seen [02/15 18:00] [miccofl] that would explain the anomoly at Agincourt I experienced a few turns back [02/15 18:01] [mongoose201] on the German version of the game.. all they have to do is open Domestic and exit and it changes... with the US version, I have to raise the lux slider one point then go back to the original setting to see the change, which should not be there at all at the same setting [02/15 18:01] [miccofl] From F1 I opened Agincourt, I then switched labor from coast to hill wine, when I put it back on coast the time to build doubled [02/15 18:02] [mongoose201] ? holy **** [02/15 18:02] [miccofl] never could get it back to where it was [02/15 18:02] [miccofl] no one else noticed so I just kept my mouth shut [02/15 18:02] [mongoose201] well, we are trying to figure that out as well... it's not just one city changing [02/15 18:05] [mongoose201] Issue #1 Attacking and moving in the same turn with a 1-move unit. [02/15 18:05] [mongoose201] Med.Ins only got 1 movement point. When they attack, that point is spent and they can't do anything until next turn. Netatolia did a minimum of 9 attacks on our Ansars. Only one of those units stayed in place like it should. The rest 'teleported' away, AFTER their movement point were exhausted. [02/15 18:06] [mongoose201] this is a strange statement considering that no unit can move in this way at all without using the manuveur [02/15 18:06] [miccofl] I guess they didn't notice the Pike we killed in the big stack [02/15 18:06] [mongoose201] manuever [02/15 18:06] [mongoose201] hehe [02/15 18:07] [miccofl] we have taken to calling the exploit the "magic carpet ride" [02/15 18:07] [mongoose201] hehe.. I noticed that... nothing wrong with a little steppenwolf [02/15 18:07] [miccofl] since it is magic, movement points should be irrelevant

	17-02-2004 05:01									#177
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Ah, Proof that GCA was spying for GWT...

E_T

	17-02-2004 05:29									#178
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Ban all teleportation now

And I would suggest we listen to any proposals about banning war weariness exploiting.
The 5 turn rule can be exploited too easily

	17-02-2004 05:44									#179
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quote: [02/15 17:59] [mongoose201] when I open the turn and check the happiness in their cities, then go to the domestic advisor, then exit, the happiness in their cities changes [02/15 18:00] [mongoose201] it's the weirdest thing I've ever seen [02/15 18:00] [miccofl] that would explain the anomoly at Agincourt I experienced a few turns back [02/15 18:01] [mongoose201] on the German version of the game.. all they have to do is open Domestic and exit and it changes... with the US version, I have to raise the lux slider one point then go back to the original setting to see the change, which should not be there at all at the same setting

This is completely normal. The player can get a preview of happiness changes that will come into effect next turn by changing the slider in the Dom Advisor, or by changing any labourer in a city view.

They are lucky they noticed, or they may have had some cities go into disorder due to WW.

	17-02-2004 05:55									#180
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btw, it might be best if make sure CGN knows about this. We don't want any of their large cities losing a turn of production to creeping WW, although from the sounds of it it may be too late for this next turn.

End of turn procedure. Hit F1. Jink the lux slider up and down. Look for unhappiness problems and make adjustments if necessary.