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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:31
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Another round of exchanges that miccofl forwarded me.
quote:
From mongoose201 to CGN:
This from GWT for your viewing:
__________________________-
Hi there, I don't know if you know me, but I am member of the german webring
team in isdg2.
Zeri is having a connection issue so I was asked to send this to you. It is
a follow-up to our complain about unit-jumping.
We are not surprised that Neta/cfc/poly got your permission to do 'the jump'
and it does not surprise us that a replay without jumping will not be
enforced.
Which still leave the issue about the attack against our ansars. This is NOT
'just a detail'. 8(or more, we don't know the exact details here) med.infs
moved AFTER their movement points were exhausted. This were also the case
with the 'fortify all' exploit. Units 'doing stuff' after their movement
points were exhausted.
This issue is easily fixed. Replay the turn without attacking our ansars
with 1-movement units.
You are partly wrong about GCAs fate btw. Denying their jump would only
destroyed their army, not their civ. We would have given them cities and
protection until they had built new units.
With 20/20 hindsight, you should have denied that first jump, or we
(gwt+gca) should not have asked for it. It were never something we were
going to argue strongly about anyway. Too late now I guess.
I don't know if you can/are allowed to answer this, but when did GCA/Poly
get permission for this jump?
Grüss
Bongo, Kriegsminister, GWT.
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This is from Lucky soon thereafter:
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Hi mongoose,
I guess you did expect the complaint of GWT after this drastic move of CGN.
I am informed about your replies and argumentation. We naturally support GCA
in this matter, however, I would like to point out a few issues that I think
are the core of the complaint but donīt seem to be fully emphasized by
bongo.
#1. The "double-action" of GWT
This method is clearly illegal, I donīt see ANY ground for argueing against
denying CGN such a behavior. Especially not after the "Fortify All"
discussion which was incited by CGN!
The very argumentation at that time was based on the fact that Fortify All
allowed GWT to make 2 actions with 1 movement point units in a single turn
compared to teams playing before them.
And this is the same here, this low trick enabled CGN to attack AND move
within a single turn. There is absolutely no ground for allowing such a
thing!
#2. The actual jump
Of course we know you ruled to allow it back then and that we used this game
mechanic. However, there is a big difference between the city gifting very
early in the game by CDG and Firaxis shortly before their defeat (which is
already questionable), our city gifting to change the continent (which is
even more questionable) to CGNs city gifting in war time (which is the
worst).
And that very difference is based on the fact that this "tactic" is NOT
possible for every team equally. In the first cases and our case, playing
order made no real difference to the gifting process.
However, in CGNs case, it makes a total difference. Were it not for Poly to
play after CGN and before GWT, this whole move would not be possible. And
this simple fact makes it unfair and illegal, Iīll gladly refer to the
Fortify All ruling again. This was made illegal because it favored teams
depending on playing order, same as here.
Now, I very clearly see the dilemma you are in and I agree that in hindsight
we should not have asked for and you not allowed the first jump. However, as
Bongo also stated, that jump made no real influence on the future game, we
already had those cities in GWT land several turns before jumping.
But the real problem is that if such methods are further allowed in the
future, we will stop playing civ and EVERY war will turn into a farce.
Employing city gifting to jump units back and forth in a war is utter
nonsense.
I believe that GWT intends to take this to the public of no resolution is
reached. And I assure you that this will incite heated discussions, but
there are clear majorities against unit jumping as seen in the rules
discussion for ISDG2. I fear that if it goes to the public, it might even
kill this game. Further allowing unit jumping as war movement will do so as
well.
As I see it, there are several possibilities.
1. Disallow city gifting at all. This is the most drastic measure and takes
large parts of the game history ad absurdum. But at least it makes it a
clear decision with no ground for argumentation and bending.
2. Disallow city gifting if more than X units jump in the process. The
problem with this is clear, namely the X.
3. Tell CGN to either jump or attack, both is not possible.
3 is the minimum solution you must reach if the rules and your rulings are
to be of any consistency. Fortify All was disallowed so a similar action
must be as well.
CGN has to replay in any case. And theyīll lose anyway.
If the game would continue without a solution, the game would be practically
over as there would be no way to invade someone anymore. You canīt kill a
civ if you canīt kill their units but they keep attacking your invasion
force.
If the unit jumping is to be continued, the game, or better the wars, will
become a farce, as I said. I donīt believe anyone will have fun with that
then, but if that is your, or better CGNs, desire, we are prepared to extend
tactics to those rules as well.
Lucky
GCA
P.S.: If you want to show this to CGN or Poly, you may do so. Of course
theyīll be biased, but they canīt deny #1 being illegal, not after they so
desperately argued against Fortify All.
--------------------------------------------------
I forgot to copy my message back to lucky.... I will paraphrase... it was
much longer and a bit more polite:
quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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This is f'ing bullshit. I have no time, but a f'ing decision will come in 24
hours. (thought I had already made one, but wtf, someone disagrees so to
hell with it). Don't know if the next decision will be the same or not, but
it will be final... blah, blah.. I'm not a babysitter... blah, blah.... I
have a job, and this isn't it... blah, blah. Take this discussion public if
you want.. am I supposed to feel threatened by that? blah...blah... who
cares about the Conquests ISDG, this is the PTW.........
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
That's what I remember off the top of my head... gtg |
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Dominae
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If that's seriously mongoose's attitude, he should be replaced as mod. Tell him to give his passwords to someone disinterested but that is actually ready to do a good job. I'm sure we can find someone.
Most of our metagame problems in this ISDG are rooted in mongoose's rulings and behaviour. When you rely on a moderator, there's bound to be trouble if the moderator sucks.
Dominae
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Dominae
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The understanding when the game began was that, in the absence of an official exploit list, a moderator would be appointed to not only make rulings on exploits and but also moderate disputes. mongoose is now pissed off for having to do just that (and doing it badly, by the way).
He's supposed to make sure the game runs smoothly, yet obviously could not care less what happens.
Dominae
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:31
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OK see the FA corrospondence thread, same date as this post:
I talked to CGN today since no one else was around (BF was for a while and was helping but had to take off) and I started seeing the winds shifting back to just do the double jump and play on genre at the UN.
1. CGN is stuck on 390AD for the playback because thats when they really and truely committed to the jump BIG Time.
2. CGN seems to prefer playback as well since it goes a long way towards removing the taint of "exploit" in theis game.
3. We both decided to post along those lines at the UN under the United we stand stronger precept.
(ie, getting back 5 turns, and disbanded GCA units and no more teleporting.)
4. They would consider going back to 400 AD IF and this is a big IF:
quote:
[@miccofl] What would y'all think if we backed up to 400 BC, moved our troops out of the cities and donated the empty cities to you with the population intact and you could rush the settlers
[SL3] And than make more cities placing them in the way of the advancing Webs or one good city and we can team up against them
[conmcb25] Hmmm, well I dont have the authority to answer that but I can take it to the team.
[conmcb25] And that will get us closer to a comprimise date with the Germans |
They still want to gift us boston WITH NO UNITS INSIDE, and get us involved in a cat and mouse game similar to what we were doing with the double jump.
So what do we want to do with that? We owe CGN an answer.
In the meantime we need to keep pushing it will take away the taint if we go back 5 turns at the UN, CGN will post likewise.
And someone needs to talk to CFC and get them on the same page, so they are posting the same stuff.
If the Germans see THREE teams in synch, posting the same solution they may give in. You know hiow Germans are they CRAVE order 
So I laid the ground work, without authorization I might add, so who in power is going to pick this up and run with it?
And someone inpower needs to lead the discussion on whether the 400AD and city gift will be OK.
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by conmcb25
1. CGN is stuck on 390AD for the playback because thats when they really and truely committed to the jump BIG Time.
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I've chatted with miccofl, Furloaf, and SL3 about the 390 A.D. issue... in fact, I as there as miccofl and SL3 were debating it between themselves (with me). I think that was well over a week now (time flies...).
SL3 managed to convince both miccolf and myself, as well as Trip (who I believe was around and arguing for a later date), that 390 A.D. was the turn upon which they had started their actual planning and implementation of he unit warp plan. For them to realistically pick the OTHER available strategy, they would have to go back to that turn to do it properly (especially preparing the Algalord area properly and having TIME to cut their roads behind them before GWT could reach them).
Given what SL3 has said about his, I completely agree with CGN that 390 A.D. is the turn that needs to be returned to. If need be, I'll even talk to Zeri about it, since he just PMed me at CDG (just a short note).
quote:
3. We both decided to post along those lines at the UN under the United we stand stronger precept.
(ie, getting back 5 turns, and disbanded GCA units and no more teleporting.)
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I'd be willing to post as well. That said, PMs to the GWT folk might help more. Since I'm not longer spending inordinate amounts of my free time PMing with Lucky, I'll do that.
quote:
4. They would consider going back to 400 AD IF and this is a big IF:
They still want to gift us boston WITH NO UNITS INSIDE, and get us involved in a cat and mouse game similar to what we were doing with the double jump.
So what do we want to do with that? We owe CGN an answer.
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While the team has not been polled on the issue (that might help), I believe we are against this. I know I am against it. I would greatly prefer that the game went back to 390 A.D., gifting of Boston was not necessary, and things could be done properly.
quote:
And someone needs to talk to CFC and get them on the same page, so they are posting the same stuff.
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Funny that you should mention that. I've been idling in the CFC embassy channel for TWO DAYS NOW hoping to run into some of their leadership to discuss this. No-one other han Chieftess has really ever been online in there when I've been around. Donovan Zoi I haven't seen even once in there of late. If I'm in there when one of them comes in, I'll talk to them (though I'm considering sending a note to Chieftess to let them know I'd like to talk to them in there).
So the only reason you haven't seen CFC logs is that CFC hasn't been around to chat. 
quote:
If the Germans see THREE teams in synch, posting the same solution they may give in. You know hiow Germans are they CRAVE order
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GWT will not cave simply because Apolyton, CGN, and CFC agree. I think GWT now understands that we are allied. However, I have found bongo and Striker to be reasonable in the past when contacted privately, so we should do that. Zeri has even contacted me, so hopefully he's as reasonable (at times...) as the other two can be.
quote:
So I laid the ground work, without authorization I might add, so who in power is going to pick this up and run with it?
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I'm going to pick up some of this stuff, but what really needs to happen here is that the FAM needs to appoint new and active ambassadors to GWT and CGN. Master Zen is now a Consul and a replacement who is active is needed. The Consuls can take part in diplomacy and often have in the past, but we need an active FAM staff rather than the Consuls and any random team members doing their jobs for them.
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17-02-2004 06:01
@ mongoose's last reply to Lucky! 
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