05-03-2004 19:10									#241
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quote: Originally posted by Trip That having been said, our 190 GPT after the Palace jump (8 turns) completely blows them out of the water...

Does CGN know that we will get about this spt?

	05-03-2004 20:20									#242
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quote: Gentlemen, I reviewed the new CGN history last night and several other members of Apolyton did as well. We are concerned about this paragraph: quote: Anne: This is true. We believe that this happened for two reasons. Firstly, the Netatolians struck up an Entente Cordial with Apolytonia and Fanatikou. Hardly surprising that the Netatolians would choose to join an alliance of strong rather than of righteous. This alliance included scientific and technological co-operation. Secondly, war tends to focus the scientific and productive elements of a society at the expense of other things. Netatolia probably went bankrupt funding their war, but the result was a boon to development, at least in the short term. We are just worried this may give too much information to your enemy. I was told that this was a public document, however I have not seen the link publically posted here in the forums. If it hasn't been advertised maybe we should wait until after the war. Thoughts? Please dont take this the wrong way. I think you guys did a great job on this. I just dont think we should give any information to GWT and GCA, at least until this conflict is over. Thanks conmcb25 Apolyton Ambassador to CGN

	05-03-2004 21:14									#243
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quote: 1) We are not funding research anymore, we are all out raising funds, and we are not bankrupt. So its misinformation. 2) Will they believe it? Its a propaganda piece. 3) I don't think it actually provides anything useful to them. Its not giving away tactics or troop locations and compositions. It may lead them to think we have no money to upgrade units, but that will be proved wrong in due course anyway. It may lead them to think we are researching through to Military Tradition, which we aren't. Their plans could be forced to be prematurely rushed if they think we are soon to get our UU and a golden age.

Ideas? Thoughts?

Edit: Second Response:

quote: If miccofl wants to cut the public access, that's fine, but to do that now would make it look like we release information that we shouldn't have. It will draw attention to something like this.

	05-03-2004 21:17									#244
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It should be pretty darn clear to GWT from the city-gifting that we're in bed with CGN. gpt and even unit support should come as no surprise to them.

The Gunpowder leak is a bit more sensitive, but still it's a pretty good propaganda trick; GWT knows that CGN needs Musketmen to defend adequately, so a public announcement that they have them might give them pause.

IMO this is not such a big deal as Aidun et al. make it out to be...


Dominae

	06-03-2004 00:30									#245
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Yeah, agreed. It's no big deal. GWT had to know that CGN was bee-lining for Muskets. GWT already made the decison to rest the injured units and wait for their slow mover stack; I doubt they will suddenly rush forward now without them. They'll likely be thinking they need those Catapults and MI's to bring down the defenses of CGN so the Ansar have maximum effectiveness and a higher survival rate.

	06-03-2004 00:47									#246
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In my opinion, this information should not be made public.

I especially don't want CGN bragging or boasting about having Apolyton and CFC as their allies and mentioning how we're helping each other.

I know it's pretty obvious that we're helping CGN after our accepting their cities and after our public arguments in their support at the UN, however, the future of this game is still uncertain. We may have to patch things up with GWT in the future and we need to do as much as possible to not burn any bridges with them.

I have asked Aidun to try to keep things neutral and civil with GWT, and to try to begin negotiations with them to resolve the WW exploit. I'd like for our diplomatic position towards GWT to be officially neutral, despite our obvious cold war. We need to not only tell them that, but we need to project it in public.

Also, I believe that revealing that CGN has gunpowder is going to force GWT to rush CGN before they can fully upgrade. Giving away this intel can backfire on us. There's no point in trying to fool or scare off GWT. Giving away intel can often backfire and I believe in this case it will.

--Togas

	06-03-2004 00:57									#247
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Well I have come to find out that CGN posted there history yesterday at the UN in that thread the Germans started for histories.

The Germans already read it. And posted a reply.

Not sure what we can do know, the cat is essentially out of the bag.

And looking at it from CGN's point, they do NOT have a reason to keep the cooperation secret (Even though GWT pretty much knows what is going on anyway. )


UN Link

	06-03-2004 04:44									#248
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Geesh... why are we stuck with these guys as allies?

* Arnelos looks at the quality of GWT versus CGN and our desire not to lose the game...

Oh yeah... too bad you always have to side with the less capable of the two.

	06-03-2004 04:49									#249
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Why is no one giving CGN a chance? I think the odds are pretty even to slightly in favor of CGN right now. How much money can GCA 'loan' to GWT? With our help, the tide will not wash CGN away.

	06-03-2004 05:03									#250
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Clandestinly helping someone, having technology agreements and other such diplomatic exchanges are one thing. If anything, the city gifting was also an opertunity for us to bring the Unit Warp Issue to a head (altogether, this can be explained that was our main motivation for that level of help) and can be explained away. Having lack of contact with GWT can be another explanation.

Openly stating that we are helping them with the war, technologies and economics is entirely a different matter. The things that we have been doing, up until this point, have been at the level of black ops, they kind of know that it's going on, but really can't point at it and say that something or other is that way, because of the nature of our helping then (like Lucky and his luck, you can't prove it but you know...). Having them release this stuff to the public, IMHO, is a diplomatic nightmare waiting to happen, especially if CGN is defeated.

If things go the way that we want them to go (i.e. CGN survive, GWT burn it's GA out on War, stalemate and stagnant war while we advance), we might need GWT cooperation at some future date, to keep CGN from getting ahead too much when they get their UU. We knew, from the begining, that this course was a tightrope, but then, we didn't count on some of these things seeing the "light of day", so to speak.

E_T

	06-03-2004 05:06									#251
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Why is no one giving CGN a chance? I think the odds are pretty even to slightly in favor of CGN right now. How much money can GCA 'loan' to GWT? With our help, the tide will not wash CGN away.

Oh, CGN has a chance. I just wish they weren't constantly trying to come up with ways to shoot themselves in the feet. If they didn't have any chance, I don't think I'd particularly mind.

	06-03-2004 05:30									#252
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ET: Think about it. Who are we trying to convince what? It's not like there are other players in the game we have to worry about. Our "Black Ops" mean nothing. Diplomacy with GWT will be what it is since they "knew" about our support of CGN well before CGN made their oh so public announcement.

How GWT react to us in the future has way more to do with what has already happened than any kind of announcement of current alliances. They already knew, we knew, everyone knew. CGN just put it in print, that's it.

	06-03-2004 05:38									#253
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Knowing (sort of) and not saying things about all of this is one thing, but having it all explicitly spelled out is another thing entirely. CGN shooting themselves in the feet, might also clip us with a stray bullet. We don't need that to happen, at this stage of the game, atleast IMO.

E_T

	10-03-2004 06:00									#254
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When we figure out what the Apoly position is with this latest city shifting "strategy", Ill let CGN know.

	10-03-2004 08:23									#255
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Posted at the CGN forum for the Apoly FAM guys:

quote: gentlemen Mongoose has just posted this thread at the UN Limits on City Gifting It is in response to your concerns about GCA and GWT swapping the choke point cities so they can move ships thru. We would like to get your official stand on this issue, hopefully our two teams can reach a consensus and post a united front at the UN. Currently we are discussing this issue in our forums and no clear consensus has evolved yet. Thanks conmcb25

	10-03-2004 09:56									#256
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Good work, con.

	10-03-2004 20:54									#257
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reply from brian_the_bold at CGN:

Its obvious to me the frustration levels are at an all time high over there.

quote: reply hi there we are in a bit of a snit here and i may have to repost a new poll about us retiring from the game I for one am about l-l that far from resigning already GWT and GC piched a fit about city gifting and the only reson GC is in the game still is becouse of them using that to escape from poly.. now we have to deal with them swaping citys back and forth using the same baraks and the same citys to move ships through this is total bull$hit and i for 1 no 2nd actualy im about 3rd or 4th person to publicly state they are thinking about resigning..we lost our former MOD becouse of issues like this ..i belive its about tobecome a big issue now. if we resign the game is probably going to become very weird becouse gwt would have this entire area unless we gifted it to poly or cfc and unless you all gifted eveything u have over there away u could never get enough troops here to hold it anyway and to rub it in GWT is in a republic so each troop costs money yet they have upgraded and reserched new techs they started this war and show up on our door step with near 100 troops and 10+ships not to metion the horde of workers they have where did they get all the money for this? I do not like to say anybody is cheating but give me a break i have never been able to do anything like what they are ...and i have never heard of anybody else except lucky doing this well

BTW according to my records brian_the_bold is the Minister of State for CGN.

	10-03-2004 20:58									#258
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Ill get this stuff posted in the FA thread, I had a brain fart last night and posted it here.

In the meantime any comments or suggestions?

Im thinking something along the lines of we sahre your frustration levels but for the good of the game we should really try to logically adress this issue at the UN, Apoly like CGN would like to see this game proceed as exploit free as possible. Lets try and work together and find a solution to this problem.

Thats what Im thinking, any other thoughts?

I tried to get miccofl and SL3 in the CGN chat last night but no one was rogering up.

	10-03-2004 22:24									#259
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Well, I do think people need to seperate this issue from others... such as this:

quote: and to rub it in GWT is in a republic so each troop costs money yet they have upgraded and reserched new techs they started this war and show up on our door step with near 100 troops and 10+ships not to metion the horde of workers they have where did they get all the money for this?

How did they do it? Nice starting terrain + smart play + a leader for a forbidden palace in former Firaxian lands. They have one extremely powerful wonder (Pyramids) that certainly helps explain the "horde of workers" (directly) and their general strength (indirectly), and another wonder that certainly assists their ability to upgrade troops (Colossus). And, of course, their Golden Age might just be helping a tad bit.

But at the end of the day it boils down to this: GWT has been planning to take down CGN, and has been applying their skills - probably quite singlemindedly - to that end for quite some time now.

-Arrian

	10-03-2004 23:26									#260
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From what I read that has been stated by GWT members, I conclude that the destruction or weakening of CGN was goal #1 from the moment that CGN was getting big. And I think that Arrian is therefore not much beside the truth if he thinks that GWT has a single purpose strategy: taking out CGN.
What CGN now experiences is the despair of a team that faces something they don't know how to deal with. They panic. It is not weariness id the game. And to be honest, I would be quite desperate too when I'd see 100 troops on my doorstep and know that in the following turns I can expect more to come.
Walking away for it is not accepting a loss, while it is still not even sure IF they are going to lose, and is in my opinion being a bad loser. But that is something you can't blame GWT for! Await death with open visor, even in your darkest hour. Those who can prove themselves stronger than the winner: winning is easy going, defending against loss is a tough struggle.

GCA is another thing. But even about GCA we all, and thus CGN too, have to think rational: Can such a small team that is so weak in terms of cities be of real assistance to GWT? I honestly doubt that, but I may be mistaken because I have not witnessed their destruction and warping. GCA is even smaller than RP is now in the PTW DG...

Aidun

	10-03-2004 23:41									#261
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun GCA is another thing. But even about GCA we all, and thus CGN too, have to think rational: Can such a small team that is so weak in terms of cities be of real assistance to GWT? I honestly doubt that, but I may be mistaken because I have not witnessed their destruction and warping. GCA is even smaller than RP is now in the PTW DG... Aidun

Regarding the first part above, I agree that CGN is probably experiencing a bit of shock at what is happening to them which is likely what precipitated their newest threat to quit.

As to GCA...they do have the power to become a serious thorn in our side if GWT beats CGN. If GWT gives them much of the old CGN land then they will very quickly regain the power they had before we sent them packing. If that happens then the chances of us winning go down greatly. GCA can be to GWT what CFC currently is to us.

	11-03-2004 00:18									#262
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It is also becoming clear that GWT was allied with GCA mostly because they knew that the other powers on the other continent - namely us and CFC were against GCA. They were thinking long-term - a divided continent was also in their best interests to avoid the rise of another rival to them.

It was unlikely that GCA would become a power with 2 nations hostile to it and they probably if GCA lost that CFC and us would be fighting over the spoils and for control of this continent.

Since the other continent is much larger it wouldn't matter to GWT if someone actually won the war and gained control of the continent - as they would have a major advantage due to their home continent.

GCA's greatest weapon for GWT is their hatred and loathing for Poly and CFC - if they weren't then likely GCA would be severely contained even by GWT as they wouldn't be able to trust them.

It wouldn't surprise me if GWT is trying to convince CFC to attack us to avoid us being more involved in their war with CGN or with GCA's forces they may have enough to win the war even with our involvement.

Frankly I think CGN is done for - they may soon outtech GWT slightly, but GWT's hordes are too large for them to handle - we may be stuck trying to delay CGN's demise by as long as possible in order to allow us to gain as much of a tech advantage as possible.

If CGN is serious about withdrawing then perhaps we should ask if a few of them would be willing to stay on to help Poly/CFC out as much as possible by delaying GWT as much as possible - or perhaps we should insist that Mongoose tell us how many units GCA really did transfer over to the other continent and does that give an unfair advantage to GWT - if it is, then we should consider resigning in protest (assuming we think that we have no chances of winning that is).

	11-03-2004 00:47									#263
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The issue here is how to handle/help CGN.

While they may be coming aware of their likely fate, we should not justify their fears. We need to continue to give them hope -- within reason. We obviously shouldn't lie to them, but we need to remain positive.

We should stick to a policy of not accepting exploitive or borderline-exploitive behavior, and trying to work within the system (create rules or refer to Moderator) to resolve such issues. This will help CGN who will feel that we are giving them moral support in their protests.

We need to CONFIRM with them when they need the loans and how much.

We should continue to offer military advice, if asked.

We should continue to study their situation, looking for areas where we can give them sound advice.

And if the hordes of death crash through their gates, we must begin to give them exit strategies other than quitting the game. Should they find themselves unable to contain GWT, we should start a new thread discussing their counter-strike options, and if no options remain, the scortched earth policy they should employ.

Should they fall, we should very humbly ask that they gift to us their techs, gold, and WORKERS in repayment of the loan. We would gift them a sanctuary city somewhere, if they agree. We could use their help in getting tech and in a potential UN victory.

--Togas

	11-03-2004 00:49									#264
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quote: I do not like to say anybody is cheating but give me a break i have never been able to do anything like what they are ...and i have never heard of anybody else except lucky doing this well

yep, I confirmed it. CGN does not have a single decent Civ player in their ranks....

	11-03-2004 00:56									#265
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I am a little surprised by the remarks of brian the bold.

CGN is whining a little bit too much. Tell them to suck it up and play on; minus the city gifting every turn.

Is was suggested that city gifting be held to every 3 turns.....what if that city had a Wonder in it? Every 3 tunrs does not sound quite fair to me in that case.

I'd support a rule that city gifting cannot be done for the purpose of circumventing any game mechcanic or for the sharing of resources, improvements, or unit movement pathways.

	11-03-2004 01:11									#266
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Did you see what "Lucky" posted in that thread about how city gifting is what made Apolyton the strongest civ on the continent, I mean what the hell is the matter with this guy he is such a dick, I suppose it must be really hard for him to admit to himself that poly is simply the better team and by quite a long way too if he thinks being gifted a few corrupt jungle cities makes much difference.

	11-03-2004 01:20									#267
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Excellent, things are going just perfectly: CGN sucks, we'll waste our energies trying to keep them propped up, exploits will continue, and GCA will finally play the spoiler to guide GWT to victory. Great game we've got going here

(Note: barring sarcasm, I do think the people of this team have played the game exquisitely. We will not lose this game because of anything we've done wrong)

	11-03-2004 01:50									#268
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OPD, What if we just ignore anything GCA says?

Togas, I agree, that is a good strategy, but supporting CGN should not hinder us from developping ourselves as the power to compete with GWT. When it does, then we have to choose for ourselves first.

Aidun

	11-03-2004 02:21									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun OPD, What if we just ignore anything GCA says?

yeah, that sounds pretty good.

Infact who are CGA

	11-03-2004 02:28									#270
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quote: and to rub it in GWT is in a republic so each troop costs money yet they have upgraded and reserched new techs they started this war and show up on our door step with near 100 troops and 10+ships not to metion the horde of workers they have where did they get all the money for this?

I played an MP game once (one of the rare occasions) where my opponent complained because I was beating him. I guess it's bad form to be better than your competition and try to win.


Dominae