27-12-2003 01:55									#361
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I knew that setting La Fayette on a course that includes spies would clarify matters.
Just a bit surprised he didn't go Commy to get vets!

thus, i can only presume the democratic growth program continues apace...

(Still a bit lackluster on your logs, monsieur!)

	27-12-2003 04:23									#362
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I beg your pardon

Attachment: od_a1853.sav
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	27-12-2003 04:43									#363
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Just a bit surprised he didn't go Commy to get vets! thus, i can only presume the democratic growth program continues apace...

You are right: I was about to switch to commie, but I finally gave a higher priority to building up our treasury (since the previous ruler - named Jrabbit - was running our civ at 70% luxuries and that is a bit high for me: I prefer to be able to build cathedrals instead of courthouses and celebrate at a lower luxury rate).

	27-12-2003 14:10									#364
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Sounds good LF!!

10 turns apiece.

Play list:

1. Oldnslow
2. Ben Kenobi
3. STYOM
4. SG[1]
5. Jrabbit
6. La Fayette
either. Straybow (if back in loop)
or. duke o' york

	27-12-2003 18:09									#365
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No need for Vet Spies. We need to keep growing as much as possible, since our internal trade will also increase with the increase in population. I'm very pleased to see the jump from 5-6 million. Once we get modern military technology, and have reached our maximums for growth, then we ought to switch back to Fundamentalism, and feed the cash into military.

	27-12-2003 21:57									#366
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette You are right: I was about to switch to commie, but I finally gave a higher priority to building up our treasury (since the previous ruler - named Jrabbit - was running our civ at 70% luxuries and that is a bit high for me: I prefer to be able to build cathedrals instead of courthouses and celebrate at a lower luxury rate).

LF

Very confused. The RabbityOne says he "presumes the democratic growth program continues apace," but there is no growth possible except at "his" 70% luxuries which you disdain. And no growth will "continue apace" without massive addition of white goods, everywhere.

This lux setting, 30%, and this build queue are perfect for exploration and tech theft...but, this is not a growth plan.

So, I am confused. How can you jab at the Rabbit's lux setting and sniff that you prefer cathedrals, when you are not building anything that will help growth??? And, therefore, why keep to a democracy if not for the growth???

And for the benifit of folk who haven't looked at the save, the population reads 4.98 millon, not 6 million.

Monk

	27-12-2003 23:13									#367
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Hmm... It was 4.77 MM when I quit.

FYI, the 70 Lux setting was to START the celebrations, as we were just switching back from fundy. Typically, that setting gets relaxed by 20 percent or more once the WLTx days are established.

I'm a bit surprised that we stayed in Democracy without WLTP growth. Pourquoi, LF?

	05-01-2004 15:41									#368
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I've got a really busy week at work this week, and my laptop has been built, but not yet delivered, so if anyone would like to jump in in front of me (Straybow perhaps? ) then please feel free, and I'll play when I can. This shouldn't be very much longer though.

	05-01-2004 18:04									#369
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk LF So, I am confused. How can you jab at the Rabbit's lux setting and sniff that you prefer cathedrals, when you are not building anything that will help growth??? And, therefore, why keep to a democracy if not for the growth???

Celebrating requires more than half the total number of gitizens happy. If you wish to achieve that with luxuries, you need a high or very high rate of luxuries. If you have happiness wonders or improvements (making all citizens content, for example) , then you can manage to celebrate with a much lower rate of luxuries.

IMO 70% luxuries is a very high rate which leaves very little left for taxes and science. That is why I think it is much better to build cathedrals (or Mike of course, if you can) before trying to celebrate. But building cathedrals requires gold. That is why I stayed in democracy: pile up gold in order to allow my successor to build cathedrals and celebrate.

	05-01-2004 18:18									#370
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Surely fundy would have had the same effect. You can amass gold with the lovely tithes, and still churn out caravans to build Mike's (rather than all of the separate improvements) because you won't be paying shield support on the units.

	06-01-2004 12:54									#371
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Have save will play… Tue night, I think.

Must… get… sleep…

	06-01-2004 14:16									#372
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Brilliant! Welcome back, and happy new year Stray.

As you can see, we are still arguing amongst ourselves as to the best way forward, so no matter what you do then you can expect RCC from someone at least. I will definitely be able to play this at the weekend, but fingers crossed for earlier depending upon the level of work this week and the arrival of my laptop. (I did receive a scary e-mail from Dell with 17th January at the top, but this didn't seem to be connected to anything else they put )

	07-01-2004 15:00									#373
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette I prefer to be able to build cathedrals instead of courthouses and celebrate at a lower luxury rate.

Delayed RCC caused by ethanol, sleeplessness and a rotten cold ...

Eh!
Cathedrals remove reds, courthouses add a light blue - two very different functions.
At our present (highly non-optimal) empire size we are fraught with the odd-city syndrome - our cities will only celebrate when they are at an even size - the CHs are vital, cathedrals are largely redundant until the aqueducts go in...

Have we got sanitation yet?

Stu

	07-01-2004 20:11									#374
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits ... - our cities will only celebrate when they are at an even size - Stu

Do we have details on the odd/even phenom regarding celebrations?

	08-01-2004 03:33									#375
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Cathedrals remove reds, courthouses add a light blue - two very different functions. At our present (highly non-optimal) empire size we are fraught with the odd-city syndrome - our cities will only celebrate when they are at an even size - the CHs are vital, cathedrals are largely redundant until the aqueducts go in... Stu

1) I agree with point 1.
I shouldn't have written 'cathedrals instead of courthouses', rather 'cathedrals AND courthouses'.

2) I disagree with point 2.
Cathedrals are not redundant, and they will not be in the near future. The reason why is that we were so lonely on our tiny islands that we did not manage to grasp any happiness wonder. The only happiness improvement that we have built in most cities is a temple ( = 2 citizens content). This means that happiness in our civ is (almost) only due to luxuries and Elvises.
Continued growth only based upon Elvises and luxuries is a costly affair... and not very efficient: I have just made a test with the settings that Jrabbit sent to me in 1838. After 2 years at 70% lux, only 2 smaller cities are still able to celebrate and grow

I stick to my opinion:
- Priority #1: build lots of spies and transports in order to steal the 16 techs or so that we need to catch up with the AI.
- Priority #2: Pile up gold in order to be able to build cathedrals (and also some harbours, aqueducts and courthouses) and then grow through WLTPD with less than 50% lux.

	08-01-2004 04:54									#376
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Understood and agreed, LF.

I was, however, very surprised that, with WLT growth not viable (which I suspected but wanted to try), you decided to stay in Democracy rather than move to either Communism (for vet spies and more GP), or Fundy (for max cash flow).

But it's really just a hazy memory now...

	08-01-2004 13:45									#377
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OnS - off the top of my head - and thereby quite likely to be corrected ... if the first citizen is unhappy (red not black) the city cannot be celebrated when its size is odd by luxuries alone -- a happy wonder HG, CfC is required or a courthouse - these add the required light blue to the mix ...

Stu

	08-01-2004 14:11									#378
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Understood and agreed, LF. I was, however, very surprised that you decided to stay in Democracy rather than move to either Communism (for vet spies and more GP), or Fundy (for max cash flow).

I was about to switch to Commie, but I should have switched to Fundy when I decided to build gold rather than vet spies.

	08-01-2004 15:46									#379
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SG1: You are correct. Maximum effect of Lux is [City size] upgrades, rounded down. Therefore a size 7 city only gets 3 reds turned to happy, size 9 only 4 happy, etc. Need CH to celebrate in Dem, need WoW to celebrate in other govs.

Some questions before I dive in:
Where was the Spanish Explorer encountered—do we have any idea where to find the Spanish or the French?

Second, is the turn counter set correctly? In the SoG scen it is offset by one for some reason. If it is set correctly then I need to revolt in 1854.

	08-01-2004 17:51									#380
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I put many hours and the lives of many unfortunate slaves into making that big Statue in Troy, and you have the nerve to ask when you should revolt?

	08-01-2004 21:16									#381
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I agree with L F -- vet spies would be the best way for science -- worked very well with Silly & I predict it will be the way for Lazy.

$$$ to use the techs & provide white goods & freight would also be nice, and since we're limited to internal trades, the payouts will be less dramatic. A ship chain would be nice, but that seems risky for now...

Sooooo why not some vet big boats to begin the guarding of a future ship chain? Gee we need some techs to build them (dear Liza, dear Liza, there's a hole in the bucket...)

	08-01-2004 21:18									#382
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Haven't looked at the save yet Stray, have you?? Or do you mean some other Spanish explorer besides the one in plain sight above Polyphemus??

Monk

	09-01-2004 21:08									#383
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Stray!
Did you manage to get the turns played? I'm eager to have another shot at this one, especially as we seem to be moving in almost the same direction now - unlike at the beginning.

If you post the file over the weekend then Old n Slow is very welcome to jump in before me, as long as I can fit back in somewhere next week.

	10-01-2004 07:00									#384
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No, I didn't notice the Dip just above Polyphemus I'm not in top form at the moment. I've been battling a cold with some success.

In the process I've slept more than I wanted… including a couple times after loading in the two succession games I'm up in.

I'm even suffering from dangling prepositions!

	10-01-2004 09:53									#385
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Well, here's hoping you get "up in" a better state of health tomorrow.

Monk

	16-01-2004 01:00									#386
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I'm better, and my new computer is here. How well Civ2 and Civ2 MGE will work with XP Pro is another matter. If I'm lucky I'll be finishing my MGE Sailing and Lazy rounds tonight!

	16-01-2004 01:26									#387
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow I'm better, and my new computer is here. How well Civ2 and Civ2 MGE will work with XP Pro is another matter. If I'm lucky I'll be finishing my MGE Sailing and Lazy rounds tonight!

Then mazel tov. Both versions of Civ2 play smoothly using XP Home, so you should be fine.

Monk

	16-01-2004 14:16									#388
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As I said in SG's tech advice thread, I'll be getting XP Home soon, but not soon enough. My laptop isn't due to arrive until next Friday so I'm out of the running this coming week too I'm afraid. My girlfriend is quite busy on her PC at the moment so there isn't much chance of my squeezing in some turns.
Here's to next week!

	19-01-2004 16:44									#389
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Straybow!

Have you managed to get any turns played? Depending upon the imminent arrival of my computer, maybe I'lkl be able to get the turns played this week, but if you can't play then I'll let Old n Slow in front of me until I get everything set up for Civ 2.

	22-01-2004 21:31									#390
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Does anyone fancy a quick summary of what I ought to do with our empire? It seems that we are in the process of building new cities, and increasing the numbers of gitizens in those we have already. We have discovered the Chinese to the south-west. What is the situation with them? Are we at war, have we already stolen enough techs to cheese them off? Should I think about building some new cities in distant realms? Maybe bribing other civs' settlers?

Give me a hand with all of these decisions, or else I shall just follow my advice to Sparrowhawk and do what I like. To the potential detriment of the empire you have so carefully built.