30-05-2004 05:03									#271
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quote: Not that trek is even about timelines anyway. I thought it was about adventure, morals, and some action, and hell some jolene blalock (uhura set that precedent wink wink nudge nudge). You know, if these timeline things affected the morals and themes (and they might in a show like B5) then I'd get it.

there's clearly no point in arguing about it with you, because you fail to see that while it might not bother you, it does bother plenty of other people.

quote: in ST they are just trivia and as such irrelevant. besides ST is extremely geeky. don't make it geekier by being bookish about it, studs

if i cared about geekiness, i wouldn't be posting in this thread, nor wearing it on my sleeve.

	30-05-2004 06:13									#272
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It's clear that is does bother a lot of other people. The question is should it.
Can anyone remember the saturday night live skit when william shatner was being questioned at a trek convention? He was like get a life it's a television show.

	30-05-2004 06:22									#273
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich SW just has much more advanced civlization - it's supposed to be tens, if not hundreds of thousands of years in the future.

You mean the past.


EDIT: Dur, beaten by Ozzy.

	30-05-2004 06:46									#274
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While I'm still watching Enterprise faithfully I admit it has a number of flaws that hamper it. The overuse of time travel is definately one of them, particularily when you consider that in TOS the few episodes in which time travel occured where portrayed as accidental and essentially first time events. I initially liked the way they portrayed the Vulcans as being not necessarily so benevolent and somewhat hypocritical, but what they've done with T'Pol this season is rather lame. In fact this whole season has been one giant mistake.

Spike TV has been running the old DS 9 series for the past month. The contrast is incredible. The character development was terrific, the scripts were well written, and they achieved a nice balance between an overall plot that evolved throughout the seasons and individual shows which had their own self-contained plots.

For myself I would rank Deep Space 9 and Babylon 5 as the two best TV Sci-Fi series. I would put Farscape down near the bottom. Someone with Crighton's adolescent temperment would never make it through NASA's training program even if his Dad was a high ranking officer.

	30-05-2004 07:03									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove While I'm still watching Enterprise faithfully I admit it has a number of flaws that hamper it. The overuse of time travel is definately one of them, particularily when you consider that in TOS the few episodes in which time travel occured where portrayed as accidental and essentially first time events. I initially liked the way they portrayed the Vulcans as being not necessarily so benevolent and somewhat hypocritical, but what they've done with T'Pol this season is rather lame. In fact this whole season has been one giant mistake. Spike TV has been running the old DS 9 series for the past month. The contrast is incredible. The character development was terrific, the scripts were well written, and they achieved a nice balance between an overall plot that evolved throughout the seasons and individual shows which had their own self-contained plots. For myself I would rank Deep Space 9 and Babylon 5 as the two best TV Sci-Fi series. I would put Farscape down near the bottom. Someone with Crighton's adolescent temperment would never make it through NASA's training program even if his Dad was a high ranking officer.

I avoided Farscape like the plague until recently. John Crichton was my main reason. I was drawn in after watching one episode late at night. The show is to good has too many unique ideas to dismiss based on Crichton. The complexity of the Scorpius character is refreshing. The references to shakespeare. The funny cultural misunderstandings. It's a great show. Crichton can grow on you. He grew on the aliens that at first did not like or trust him.
They also mention on a regular basis that Crichton is not your typical astronaut. In fact, he is a scientist testing out his on experiment. So without Crichton, no Farscape in the first place. That's how he got into space.

	30-05-2004 07:08									#276
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Crichton's character is brillant... he starts off wide-eyed and in wonder of his predicament, but becomes increasingly unhinged as the series wears on. Given all he goes through (even without the all the monkeying around with his brain), I find it highly believable.

	30-05-2004 07:17									#277
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quote: Originally posted by joncha Crichton's character is brillant... he starts off wide-eyed and in wonder of his predicament, but becomes increasingly unhinged as the series wears on. Given all he goes through (even without the all the monkeying around with his brain), I find it highly believable.

I thought he started off as a 15 year old trying to protray an astronaut. Maybe I just didn't like the "punk" atmosphere the show eventually developed.

	30-05-2004 07:32									#278
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Can you elaborate Dr. Strangelove?

	30-05-2004 09:24									#279
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I, too, wish ST:E would focus less on the Temporal Cold War (i.e. time travel episodes) and more on state of Earth, its allies and the Alpha Quadrant leading up to the formation of the United Federation of Planets.

Suffice to say, the twist in ST:E's season finale was enough to provoke both my interest and ire. I would like to think that the alien Nazi is a Reman soldier, but knowing TPTB, that won't be the case. It's probably nothing more than re-used makeup and costuming.

In related areas, I'm happy to be able to catch STS9 on SpikeTV, although the cable channel is starting to become hit-and-miss in terms of scheduling. Gee, no surprise there. I don't like tuning into Spike, expecting to see DS9, only to find a stupid first-season TNG episode from 1987 airing in its place.

BTW, does anyone have a link to the Official Dominion War Guide as quoted by obstructor?

I used to like Andromeda ... but it's *really* gone to crap since the end of S2.

I still enjoy Stargate:SG-1, although its Atlantis spin-off has me concerned, because it looks, well, a bit too derivative.

I enjoy SW as well, especially so the Expanded Universe (EU) novels and whatnot.

Never really got into Farscape, Lexx (the commercials alone were enough to drive me away) or Firefly (a space western? C'mon!).

Gatekeeper

	30-05-2004 09:33									#280
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Bah, Wiglaf. Just because I appreciated the reasons why it could be acceptable (Federation First Contact vs. Earth First Contact) doesn't mean that Archer and the NX-01 is any good.

Now whatever that guy's name who played Archer is great, I'm a fan. Watched the show for him originally, but I just couldn't get into it. Too much was familiar to start of with (Risa anyone?) and then it just started going downhill, especially with the whole 'this one captain's fate will impact all the crews, ships, and other captains you've ever known' crap in the promos.

That means even they buy into the timeline, which means that even if a fan can rationalize it, doesn't make it better. I just happened to appreciate all the fan rationalizations (and especially the ST RPG book's Klingon rationalization. )

Oh... and just to weigh in on the whole SW vs. ST thing: they're different genre's

What part of "a long time ago in a galaxy far far away..." makes it Sci-Fi?

	30-05-2004 09:55									#281
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich quote: B5 in general was closer to scientific reality than the other two- not perfetc, but certainly closer. SW does not even try, since it is scif fi only in the whole "set in space" part, but otherwise is fantasy really. SW just has much more advanced civlization - it's supposed to be tens, if not hundreds of thousands of years in the future.

Not really. Both B5 and ST have aliens far more advanced than individuals in Star Wars. The first ones in B5 are millions of years old, and have technologies such as living ships that are way beyond SW technology if you think about it. The Vorlons went so far as to become beings of mainly energy. ST goes even further-they have the Q, beings who can control the universe at will.

ST of course horribly handles the Q, who are so powerful as to really be boring, or bad plot points. And B5 does not give its advanced aliens the same level of ridiculous power Lucas created in SW. I forget who said that technology advanced enough might as well be magic (somethign B5 handles with the technomages)-well, SW does that, and in doing so really comes closer to fantasy-though I already have stated why I think SW bare if at all should be counted as sci fi.

I like Farscape-I think many of the characters are interesting-but the series took some weird turns in writing, so I don not enjoy it as much as I would an episode of Voyager, even thought I know farscape is a better show.

I think andromeda has camp value-and SG1 bores me. I have never been able to enjoy that show. I don't find the universe it created convincing, the aliens interesting, the humans interesting.

B5, Ds9 and ST:NG are my favorites, and in that order.

	30-05-2004 16:51									#282
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quote: Staff turnover-so what? People die, specially in wars.

As I recall, in B5, of the main characters only Marcus died.

quote: MIlitary people are at the mercy of the higher ups- the fact is that the stability of ST crews is the anomily, not the fact an Ambassador might change attaches.

I'm not saying it's not realistic...I'm saying it's bad story writing. Having a bunch of characters in the credits, give them their own episodes to star in, and then write them off a few eps later. It doesn't help the viewer to really get into the characters, since most leave before we get a chance to warm up to them.

Also, some of the changes had no real reason. P5 telepath turning super-telepath Talia got replaced by P5 telepath turning super telepath Lyta. Stupid. (especially after Ironheart-God said he could see everything yet not notice Talia reprogramming)

quote: Second, the Shadow cloud could have destroyed his entire fleet without impunity.

A few episoded prior, a SMALLER fleet commanded by Sheridan did beat the Shadows. Sure, Sheridan lost 2 ships for every Shadow vessel he destroyed, but that's not that bad! The Russian in WW2 lost (I think) more than 5 tanks for every German tank they destroyed (and still won the war).

quote: As for levels of destruction- The levels of destruction for the Shadow war are much heavier-whole planets and many colonies gone. In DS9 the powers were exhausted- in B5 there was the chance of them being wiped out utterly. Maybe it escapes my mind, but how many homeworlds suffered planetary bombardment?

In B5, none of the homeworlds of mayor powers got attacked or destroyed by either Shadows or Vorlons. Only the Centauri faced the chance of being wiped out completely, and even they in the end didn't lose a single ship or planet against the Vorlons. The Minbari weren't attacked even once I believe. Nor was the Earth Alliance. The Shadow war for Earth and Minbar was a lot like 1940s America. Sure, the Germans attacked some merchant vessels, but all in all the country wasn't under a direct threath. In DS9, ALL of the mayor powers got directly involved in the war. All of them lost men, ships, colonies and worlds. All of them suffered greatly. In B5, only the Narn suffered, and mainly by the Centauri, not the Shadows directly. And NO big worlds were attacked or destroyed by the Shadows or Vorlons. Just minor worlds and colonies and outposts. In total body count, the Shadow War did cost more than the Dominion War, however, looking at the total cost of the war for the mayor powers, the Dominion War cost way more than the Shadow War. After the Dominion War, Cardassia was nearly destroyed. Earth got bombed and lost millions of people, same goes for other Federation homeworlds. The Romulan Star Empire and the Klingon Empire were crippled. The Dominion lost all it's holdings in the Alpha Quadrant. The Breen, most likely, suffered severe losses too. On the other hand, in B5, during the Shadow War, the Minbari Empire hardly lost anything. The Earth Alliance hardly lost anything. The Centauri gained from it even! At least the Shadow War of a 1000 years prior, did cost all the participants dearly. But this time around, the war ended before any real damage was done. I felt less the sense of loss and accomplishment caused by the end of the Shadow War, than by the end of the Dominian War.

	30-05-2004 17:59									#283
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Not really. Both B5 and ST have aliens far more advanced than individuals in Star Wars. The first ones in B5 are millions of years old, and have technologies such as living ships that are way beyond SW technology if you think about it. The Vorlons went so far as to become beings of mainly energy. ST goes even further-they have the Q, beings who can control the universe at will.

Negative. Even the First Ones in B5 are markably Inferior to the SW Galactic Standard in tech.

And "Organic Ships" does not indicate advance tech. It indicates studitiy. sd.net best put it...


"Captain, I'm picking up an approaching ship."

"What can you tell me about it?"

"Oh my God, it's organic! What are we going to do, Captain?"

"There's not much we can do, Ensign. Organic technology is so far beyond our grasp that we can't even imagine the power they must have. All we have is high-powered guns, nuclear missiles, and our primitive metallic armour. What are you reading from their incredibly advanced bio-ship?"

"Their ship is soft and flexible. Its construction materials are semi-permeable and laced with a network of delicate circulation passages. Instead of using impermeable high-density materials, it's made from countless tiny thin-walled cells which tend to rapidly break down in the presence of corrosive chemicals or radiation."

"What? And we were supposed to be afraid of this? Open fire!"

SQUISH ...

	30-05-2004 18:04									#284
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EDIT:

	30-05-2004 18:06									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus In B5, none of the homeworlds of mayor powers got attacked or destroyed by either Shadows or Vorlons. Only the Centauri faced the chance of being wiped out completely, and even they in the end didn't lose a single ship or planet against the Vorlons. The Minbari weren't attacked even once I believe. Nor was the Earth Alliance. The Shadow war for Earth and Minbar was a lot like 1940s America. Sure, the Germans attacked some merchant vessels, but all in all the country wasn't under a direct threath. In DS9, ALL of the mayor powers got directly involved in the war. All of them lost men, ships, colonies and worlds. All of them suffered greatly. In B5, only the Narn suffered, and mainly by the Centauri, not the Shadows directly. And NO big worlds were attacked or destroyed by the Shadows or Vorlons. Just minor worlds and colonies and outposts. In total body count, the Shadow War did cost more than the Dominion War, however, looking at the total cost of the war for the mayor powers, the Dominion War cost way more than the Shadow War. After the Dominion War, Cardassia was nearly destroyed. Earth got bombed and lost millions of people, same goes for other Federation homeworlds. The Romulan Star Empire and the Klingon Empire were crippled. The Dominion lost all it's holdings in the Alpha Quadrant. The Breen, most likely, suffered severe losses too. On the other hand, in B5, during the Shadow War, the Minbari Empire hardly lost anything. The Earth Alliance hardly lost anything. The Centauri gained from it even! At least the Shadow War of a 1000 years prior, did cost all the participants dearly. But this time around, the war ended before any real damage was done. I felt less the sense of loss and accomplishment caused by the end of the Shadow War, than by the end of the Dominian War.

IIRC, the number for the most recent Shadow war was Hundreds of Millions lost, with it rapidly becoming obvious that Billions more were going to die in short order.

This was during a conflict that spanned mere months, vice the several year conflict that was the Dominion War. In the end, the Greatest Sufferers were the Cardassians, who sustained 800 million+ deaths on their homeworld.

While grim, such numbers are insignifigant on a Galactic scale. B5 had it right in assuming war's start off slow, than progressively get bloodier.

All the Domimion lost was it's AQ holdings, it held onto it's GQ holdings, many it's still probably the most powerful of all the belligerants. The Breen may have got their expeditionary force trashed, but there is nothing to indicate the AQ powers made a drive for the Breen capital.

The Klingons are probably the most ****ed of the major allies, as they were fighting the Cardassians/Domimion on their own for quite some time. Only the mass transit of hundreds of Domimion warships spurred the Federation into action.

The Romulans actually appear to have came through with the least amount of casulties.

	30-05-2004 18:11									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus I'm not saying it's not realistic...I'm saying it's bad story writing. Having a bunch of characters in the credits, give them their own episodes to star in, and then write them off a few eps later. It doesn't help the viewer to really get into the characters, since most leave before we get a chance to warm up to them.

B5 was not an episodic show-this is what you don;t get. There was one sngle story-characters had a place in it yes, but there are there to advance a plot bigger than them. So G'Kar had an attache, so what?

quote: Also, some of the changes had no real reason. P5 telepath turning super-telepath Talia got replaced by P5 telepath turning super telepath Lyta. Stupid. (especially after Ironheart-God said he could see everything yet not notice Talia reprogramming)

Actors have lives.

quote: A few episoded prior, a SMALLER fleet commanded by Sheridan did beat the Shadows. Sure, Sheridan lost 2 ships for every Shadow vessel he destroyed, but that's not that bad! The Russian in WW2 lost (I think) more than 5 tanks for every German tank they destroyed (and still won the war).

Actually, it was the same fleet sheridan had, and he beat a much smaller shadoow force than the one at the end. Plus at that point the shadows had not brought out their superweapons.

quote: At least the Shadow War of a 1000 years prior, did cost all the participants dearly. But this time around, the war ended before any real damage was done. I felt less the sense of loss and accomplishment caused by the end of the Shadow War, than by the end of the Dominian War.

Again, you ignore 2 things:

The writers of B5 faced financial constraints those of DS9 did not
Once the first one brought out the planetkillers, for smaler powers it was about either being annahilated or ending the war asap.

In short, they could NOT afford such a war.

	30-05-2004 18:18									#287
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On organic ships: hello!

HOw could something "so delicate" survive simple space travel? Also, is bone, which is organic material, "soft and permeable"? Organic does not mean flesh, it means acts alive, which is different.

The nerds at sd.net always like to "use source material" to prove points-well, it took the whole firepower one Narn heavy cruiser and a white star to take out a moderate size Shadow vessel-hmm, yeah, that sounds delicate.

Oh, and lest add another thing-ST has far more advanced tech than SW-
1. HIgher levels of AI-look at Data and then R2D2....
2. Full matter-energy conversion. IN trek they have Transporters and replicators-SW does not even come close.

	30-05-2004 18:19									#288
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Not really. Both B5 and ST have aliens far more advanced than individuals in Star Wars. The first ones in B5 are millions of years old, and have technologies such as living ships that are way beyond SW technology if you think about it.

I take it you haven't heard of the NJO series? (Yes, the books really started going downhill from there, but that's beside the point )

My point was that SW was not somehow further away from scientific reality, not that they were more advanced than EVERY civilization.

	30-05-2004 18:23									#289
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Star Wars technology is however superior to Star Trek one.

	30-05-2004 18:24									#290
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Actually, I've heard a theory posited that Shadow Vessels actually use Nanotech extensively, vice biotech.

Data would be unremarkable in SW. He would be a particularly impressive droid, but nothing to write home about.


SW does not have transporters, but they do have "duplicator" technology, which appears to be a rough analog to replicators.

I don't know why you're supporting Transporter tech though. It's a particuarly insidious form of technology, that should be wiped out.


SW Warships have also displayed far greater firepower and shields/armor/countermeasures than any ST ship. Except for the Voth City Ship. (I give props to dino-aliens who can transport entire ships)

	30-05-2004 18:24									#291
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Oh, definately. See the link I posted earlier

	30-05-2004 18:39									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Actually, I've heard a theory posited that Shadow Vessels actually use Nanotech extensively, vice biotech.

In the show they definitelly say organic. Vorlon ships are also organic (they act alive) and they are even tougher than Shadow vessels.

quote: Data would be unremarkable in SW. He would be a particularly impressive droid, but nothing to write home about.

Well, odd, given how stillted and 1930's all the robots look in the movies.

quote: SW does not have transporters, but they do have "duplicator" technology, which appears to be a rough analog to replicators.

What, in the books? Never shown in the movies.

quote: SW Warships have also displayed far greater firepower and shields/armor/countermeasures than any ST ship. Except for the Voth City Ship. (I give props to dino-aliens who can transport entire ships)

Yes, they have, BECUASE the writers of SW could not give a lick about science and thus would do whatever they wanted. That is why SW as a whole is barely sci fi-closer to fantasy. As opposed to ST and B5 were the writers seemed to at least want a minimum of science fact present (more in B5 than ST, but still)

I could write a show tommorrow about en evil empire with 6 trillion ships and each on capable of killing a star..what, then I win this whole sad "who is stronger?" race becuase I pulled something utterly insane out of my ass?

	30-05-2004 18:45									#293
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quote: Originally posted by GePap quote: Data would be unremarkable in SW. He would be a particularly impressive droid, but nothing to write home about. Well, odd, given how stillted and 1930's all the robots look in the movies.

His capabilities would not be amazing. And they actually do have humaniform robots in SW.

quote: quote: SW does not have transporters, but they do have "duplicator" technology, which appears to be a rough analog to replicators. What, in the books? Never shown in the movies.

It's detailed quite extensively in the books. Of course the movies don't show it; it's supposedly the food supply on ships like the Falcon.

quote: Yes, they have, BECUASE the writers of SW could not give a lick about science and thus would do whatever they wanted. That is why SW as a whole is barely sci fi-closer to fantasy. As opposed to ST and B5 were the writers seemed to at least want a minimum of science fact present (more in B5 than ST, but still)

ST has "a minimum of science"

ST goes into greater detail about how their SF works - but all this does is make them look stupider and more contrived.

	30-05-2004 18:51									#294
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quote: ST goes into greater detail about how their SF works - but all this does is make them look stupider and more contrived.

like the count of some certain thingies in one's blood determine how strong the "force" is in that person?

	30-05-2004 18:53									#295
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Episode 1 is not Star Wars.

	30-05-2004 18:56									#296
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Likewise Enterprise is not Star Trek then.

	30-05-2004 18:57									#297
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OK, I'm fine with that... doesn't change anything about the SW-ST relationship

	30-05-2004 19:10									#298
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The sad fact is that if we go by sd.net nerd levels of "trust the source material", the Commonwealth in Andromeda beats the Empire hands down, since one single Commonwealth ship of the line can blow up 40 star systems. Never having read the books I do now that in SW the second empire or whatever makes another terror weapon that can do just that-but they have only one and its this giant things-as compared to a nice, "simple" nova bombs supposedly small enough to fit into a fighter.....

	30-05-2004 19:29									#299
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And yet we can see the beautiful tactics shown by Dylan... not. They don't seem particularly disposed towards using nova bombs.

Andromeda had no shielding. An ISD would probably disable one in a few salvos.

	30-05-2004 19:48									#300
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We're talking about a ship that has withstood having blackholes shot at it. I doubt the ISD weapons would rate as a threat.