20-08-2004 23:34									#271
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If it's an idle daydream, nothing. Useful ideas, those that actually lead to a new product or other item, actually require a lot of detailed implementation work. You don't just have a passing thought and then the finished prototype suddenly Minerva's out of your head. At least not on this planet.

It's not taking the tool that he built though. It's paying someone else to build another one.

	20-08-2004 23:34									#272
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I never took individual innovation into mind when I thought of this system of innovation. My thoughts were to encourage hard work, not innovation. Innovation can be planned by the society.

WHAT?! Since when?

quote: I haven't quite worked out the possibility of individuals are smaller groups of individuals thinking of ways to save their labor and earn more.

Despite the fact that that's been the standard model of innovation for thousands of years?

	20-08-2004 23:35									#273
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious No. Thinking is labor saving, not labor.

Ah. I see. So these planners of yours, they won't get paid anything, because they're just thinking, not doing labor?

	20-08-2004 23:35									#274
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::In the voice of the Emperor::

Arrian...join the dark side....join the dark side....



-=Vel=-
(you know you wanna! LOL)

	20-08-2004 23:35									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious How about if I just remind you that there is a department in most companies called R&D?

So it's individual companies, who hire and pay people specifically for their ideas?

	20-08-2004 23:35									#276
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious How about if I just remind you that there is a department in most companies called R&D?

ya and the company expects to profit if it innovates and often the employees in such a department would get huge bonuses if their innovations make money. Its called capitalism and it works great for innovation.

	20-08-2004 23:37									#277
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat So it's individual companies, who hire and pay people specifically for their ideas?

They pay people to come up with ideas.

	20-08-2004 23:38									#278
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious They pay people to come up with ideas.

But according to you, that's not labor. So why should they be paid for not doing any labor?

	20-08-2004 23:39									#279
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It's not taking the tool that he built though. It's paying someone else to build another one.

By this do you mean paying a bunch of people to do focused research to discover that which Vel has already created ? Since after all, unless you plan to be a coercive police state, you surely don't plan to expropriate the invention Vel made to get a look inside it to see how it works?


Wouldn't it be so much betetr to offer VEL a fair price for his invention absed on the impact it would have on industry?

	20-08-2004 23:40									#280
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It's not taking the tool that he built though. It's paying someone else to build another one.

Yep. But without my cooperation in giving the prototype up, you'll have to take it (ie - exploit me....you know, the thing you despise. But then someone said once that we all become what we despise).

And Walker beat me to the point I was getting around to.

Your central planning group isn't "laboring" - they're thinking. Planning. Allocating.

So they get...nothing? That won't work...they'd starve!

And if they're not working, there's going to have to be a profit margin built into everything you produce, cos you're gonna have to pay those non-working louts a salary of some kind.

Hmmm...profits built in.

But that means exploiting those who MAKE the stuff we're talking about.

Doesn't it?

So either thinking IS work, and your planners are working (and in which case, stealing my idea = stealing my work), or it isn't and you still need some means of paying the planning group's salaries.

Right?

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 23:40									#281
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Ah. I see. So these planners of yours, they won't get paid anything, because they're just thinking, not doing labor?

People will get paid for thinking, because it's a value to society. Society benefits from thinking so there should be compensation, just as with labor.

	20-08-2004 23:41									#282
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I have to go now. Maybe I better rethink this incentive idea of mine.

	20-08-2004 23:42									#283
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I'd love to take credit for that gotcha, but in truth, you just skewered yourself.

Props, Kid....that was awesome.

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 23:43									#284
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But I thought people were to be paid for the effort they put into their labor...

... or was it paid based on the value of their labor?

And what's the difference (in terms of your theory) between thinking and labor, then, if both have a value to society, and both paid for?

EDIT: as others have said, moot. Major @ Kid; I take back what I said earlier.

Last edited by Kuciwalker on 21-08-2004 at 01:03

	20-08-2004 23:46									#285
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EDIT: Moot, given Kid's last post. Props to Kid for reconsidering. That's rare here.

Is "management" work? What do managers do, really? They try to get the most out of their underlings, and they fill out lots of forms. How does that compare with manual labor?

Is what I do (insurance coverage analysis) work? I mean, I don't do much in the way of manual labor. I do a lot of reading, thinking and typing, though.

I essentially get paid to think. Not to dream up ideas, but rather to analyze the facts & circumstances of a given claim vis-a-vis the terms of a given policy, in light of the prevelant law of the appropriate jurisdiction (itself a quesitonmark, as "choice of law" is its own question at times).

I would be the first to admit that it would be a better world if my job didn't exist. But I think of a communist system and figure that a "planner" in that system looks an awful lot like me... instead of analyzing claims, they analyze production data or somesuch and make some sort of determination (build more of widget A, less of C). Isn't that work?

-Arrian

	20-08-2004 23:49									#286
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I have to agree.

Kid, you're a stubborn one...almost as stubborn as me.

Kudos for going back to the drawing board there.

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 23:51									#287
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious People will get paid for thinking, because it's a value to society. Society benefits from thinking so there should be compensation, just as with labor.

hmmm but people are paid for their effort, not their output right?? So my work is thinking and I think hard all day but don't create any tangible product all day. My co-worker comes up with two brilliant ideas during an early round of golf, browses poly all day and leaves early-- who gets paid more? who measures it ??


Also real life

This is not an entirely far-out point-- I'm a lawyer and get paid an hourly rate ( not busy today -- no project to bill until my meeting later ). But sometimes when drafting a complex 100 page agreement, I get so involved that I am thinking about it morning, noon and night-- I've had major flashes of insight while playing hockey, or while gardening .... ObviouslyNOT actively working. Now .. . I grab my dictaphone and will bill the client for the time it takes to specify and expand the idea but I don't bill for the night I spent tossing and turning mulling over the problem . . . the bottom line for me is that the client must be pleased with the overall product at the price I charge . .. If he's not, I probably lose the client. Its the free market at work and like the result. How does all this fit in with your planners?

	20-08-2004 23:55									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I have to go now. Maybe I better rethink this incentive idea of mine.

Hot diggity-- This is the first time I have seen Kid capitulate before--we'll make a good capitalist of him yet

Seriously . .. I expect kid to not give up easily and fully expect him to come back with some way that the planners will cause innovation better than the free market

	20-08-2004 23:59									#289
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I know...when I first read the post, I was stunned! (in a good way)

One thing's sure tho...he WILL give the matter more thought, and be back to give the new idea its requisite trial by fire.


-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 00:09									#291
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx I know...when I first read the post, I was stunned! (in a good way) One thing's sure tho...he WILL give the matter more thought, and be back to give the new idea its requisite trial by fire. -=Vel=-

yup-- I was suprised-- we had run your tool and invention example at him before and he never saw the problem. I'm actually glad to see him reconsider-- its more fun to try to debate someone that can acknowledge problems with their argument

	21-08-2004 00:20									#292
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Agreed...and methinks that his next iteration will work out at least some of the core problems, which will keep us duly on our toes...

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 01:01									#293
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I have to go now. Maybe I better rethink this incentive idea of mine.

WTF just happened here?!?

Seriously, is this allowed in the OT?

Oh, and Arrian... thanks, you codsack, but at least you got a decent song stuck in my head.

	21-08-2004 01:04									#294
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You know, I've changed my mind before, but I've never actually admitted it in the thread. I've simply adopted the opposite position the next time the issue came up

	21-08-2004 01:17									#295
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The whole innovation topic brings to mind a current dillma I am very much exposed to.

The fact is most companies are looking towards decentalized R&D that emphasizes business unit R&D development. The thought being that any breakthroughs are more aligned towardscustomer needs and also that innovations are geared towards a more entreprenurial approach.

The centralized R&D strengths are that it allows potenitally for cross fertilziation of ideas but suffers greatly in that often times breakthrough in innovation are poorly communicated to the sales/business arms and hence are not directed properly nor implemented.

The same parralels I think apply in grander scale to planned verses entrepenurial soceities. Hence while the Soviet union was magnificinet as basic research as evidenced by any number of chemists physicists etc. the implementation of these technologies into mainstream consumer products was greatly lacking as there was no driving force to do so.

	21-08-2004 01:19									#296
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker You know, I've changed my mind before, but I've never actually admitted it in the thread. I've simply adopted the opposite position the next time the issue came up

I don't think kid could do that.

For one thing, if he adopted the opposite of his traditional positions, who would we find to champion kid's views

------------------------------------------------

as for me, I don't reverse myself much -- If an issue is unclear, I will await further evidence or adopt a middle-of-the-road approach

	21-08-2004 01:30									#297
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That's an excellent point, Brother Og!

Some level of centralization has its uses, yes, and it can be a strong model in certain situations (anybody even WANT to imagine a decentralized military command structure...EGADS), but governance isn't one of them, and that's the first hurdle the Reds will need to overcome....the same Spectre that haunted previous iterations of the experiment.

The problem comes down to power.

You put a group of guys in charge of the economy, then by default you give them the keys to the kingdom.

Politics don't matter...at least not in the traditional sense (sure, graft and back room deals come into play...human nature and all that, but traditional politics cease to have meaning for these folks...that's how much power they wield), and in the absence of any way to rein these guys in, they'll invariably succumb to the lures OF the power their have.

They'll wanna keep it, cos...hell, who wouldn't?

And from there, it's only a couple steps away from EXACTLY the same setup that's failed so spectacularly in previous iterations.

Until that is addressed, or human nature takes a rather large U-turn....it's a showstopper.

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 01:36									#298
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It ends up being that but also much more. While the power residing in a few means there is incentive for those few to remain in power by whatever means there is also teh communicational issues even if they were completely altrusitic in their motive.

Decentralized innovation by default means less levels of filter between implementaion and discovery. By its nature thats means better more timely innovation. If we consider innovation the driver of all progress, one can easily see teh model of decntralized innovation has natural advantage over planned innovation. I think its called turn advantage wrt faster innovation.

	21-08-2004 01:43									#299
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Turn advantage.

Now where have I heard that phrase before?





-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 01:44									#300
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If only I could have my civ do that so much easier than some national science rate