21-08-2004 03:34									#361
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Rock on, Flubber! Whatcha doing later?

I was thinking of ordering some Pizza and having some peasant deliver it to my door (cos I'm lazy and just feel like some exploitation tonight)....we can plot and scheme maybe?

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 03:34									#362
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Can't think of anything that helps your argument.

It wasn't an argument. There was a smiley after it

take that as you will

mingitis!

quote: And there were periods of severe and prolonged unemployment.

Yup.

	21-08-2004 03:34									#363
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Innovation can be problematic in the short run if the development of new products does not keep up with the improvements in efficiency. But makes up for it and much, much more in the long run, so who cares?

In the long run we're all dead - John Maynard Keynes

	21-08-2004 03:34									#364
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx And fantastic! So I get to invent stuff in my free time and not give it up to the state. Perfect. Now what happens when I start using my inventions at work to enhance my productivity. We're being paid piece work style, so I'm gonna be TONS more productive than the rank and file....and since I get paid by the piece...I get more MONEY! Now I'm in a position to exploit.....what's the next step? -=Vel=-

Come see me so I can draft up some contracts-- I'm sure to find some loopholes in any centrally planned system. We'll get those tools into the hands of others in ways thatwill earn you even more profit and which will be more profitable for each worker too.

Kid-- you can drive a truck through most government regulatory schemes-- what makes you think you will get it perfect?

	21-08-2004 03:36									#365
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quote: In the long run we're all dead - John Maynard Keynes

That's nice, but I don't give a flip about a random Keynes statement.

If the long term benefits far outweigh the short term cost, then who cares for some short term disruptions? Or are you saying that we should NOT curb carbon emissions in the present because "in the long run we're all dead"? Sounds like Keynes was quite a hedonist then, eh?

	21-08-2004 03:37									#366
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Flubber, I like it! Sounds like a good topic for discussion over pizza and beer!

Seriously Kid, the system you're proposing is flawed.

I don't mean just little nicks and dings, I mean flawed to the point of not being able to lift itself off the ground.

I'm enjoying the debate, but c'mon guy....how are you gonna stop Flubber from walking into yonder plant and working? Gonna have police checkpoints up?

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 03:38									#367
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious No. You can't go and work in the other factory.

So people aren't ALLOWED to work extra to earn extra??
Fine then I'll use my extra time to mow my neighbor's lawn and tutor his sonm and he will lend me his weedwhacker, give me a couple of bottles of his home-made hootch and his wife will make me dinner.

Stop that transaction why doncha?? Bottom line, you give me the same money for less time and I will find ways to earn more .

	21-08-2004 03:39									#368
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Meanwhile in a parell capitalist earth, Vel's invention makes him a multumillionaire. so he builds a new house and employes some staff. The widget factory either produces more widgets or produces the smae at less cost and the resources of the society goes on to other things. Its called progress.

Vel didn't actually invent anything, and there are no parallel universes.

quote: Originally posted by Flubber Kid's system, we might as well scrap all the bulldozer's-- after all a 100 folks with shovels could have full employment doing the same work. Who cares that there is a more efficient way to work?

No stop putting words in my mouth. There are costs and benefits associated with each system, but I'm not the unibomber so just stop.

	21-08-2004 03:40									#369
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The thing I don't get is this:

What IS it with you people and this paranoid NEED to control?

This burning NEED to stick your noses into everybody else's business and tell us all how to live, where to live, where we can (and cannot) work. What our maximum salary can be, how we can use our own inventions.....

The list goes on and on.

What is it you are so afraid of?

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 03:42									#370
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quote: In the long run we're all dead - John Maynard Keynes

in the long run, most of the stuff i came up with will be proven wrong - John Maynard Keynes

	21-08-2004 03:42									#371
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Whaaaaat? How is consumption going to magically generate tools? IF and ONLY if the value of what is produced is greater than the value of what is consumed will there be a net gain of anything. That means, by definition, building in profits at the point of consumption (ie - charging more for the consumables than the value of the labor used to produce them). At this point, per your own d@mned definition, we're exploiting the labor force to drive the machine. Which means that what you're advocating is capitalism-with-jackboots. -=Vel=-

Thinking isn't labor, but it isn't sitting around with your thumb up your bum either. It's not exploitation.

	21-08-2004 03:44									#372
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia in the long run, most of the stuff i came up with will be proven wrong - John Maynard Keynes

In the short run everything you say will be a lie.

	21-08-2004 03:44									#373
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Thinking isn't labor, but it isn't sitting around with your thumb up your bum either. It's not exploitation.


quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
Whaaaaat?

How is consumption going to magically generate tools?

IF and ONLY if the value of what is produced is greater than the value of what is consumed will there be a net gain of anything.

That means, by definition, building in profits at the point of consumption (ie - charging more for the consumables than the value of the labor used to produce them). At this point, per your own d@mned definition, we're exploiting the labor force to drive the machine. Which means that what you're advocating is capitalism-with-jackboots.

-=Vel=-

....?

And this answers the question...how?

	21-08-2004 03:46									#374
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious No stop putting words in my mouth. There are costs and benefits associated with each system, but I'm not the unibomber so just stop.

Right-- but the bulldozer was an innovation that was once hard on the planners . Under your system the inventor has no incentive to share it--really no incentive to build it at all-- so guess what it doesn't get built as fast.

So the planned economy has a 100 workers with shovels while the capitalist economy has 1 guy IN a bulldozer and a couple of dozen making bulldozers . The rest of the workforce are probably making other innovations.

Tell you what, my capitalist economy will sell you a bulldozer but that will be a net outflow of capital and since you can't borrow the money, I hope you have the cash--Perhaps you are more efficient in other areas and can actually generate a surplus

	21-08-2004 03:48									#375
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Kid-- you can drive a truck through most government regulatory schemes-- what makes you think you will get it perfect?

It's not perfect. Maybe it's not closer to perfect than capitalism, but it's fair, it's stable, and it's the only possible system for the future.

	21-08-2004 03:49									#376
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Kid: when we "put words in your mouth", what we're doing is reductio ad absurdum - we're taking what you've said to its logical conclusion to demonstrate a contradiction or unacceptable consequences. It's not a personal attack or anything, simply a (widely used) method of argumentation.

	21-08-2004 03:50									#377
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Now we get to the crux of the matter.

It's only fair when Kid gets to tell us how we can live.

THEN its fair.

Does that sum it up?

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 03:50									#378
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: In the long run we're all dead - John Maynard Keynes That's nice, but I don't give a flip about a random Keynes statement. If the long term benefits far outweigh the short term cost, then who cares for some short term disruptions? Or are you saying that we should NOT curb carbon emissions in the present because "in the long run we're all dead"? Sounds like Keynes was quite a hedonist then, eh?

There are no long run benefits if you can't solve your problems in the short run. That's what he meant.

	21-08-2004 03:51									#379
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So far, we always have solved the short run problems then - because we've derived the long run benefits.

	21-08-2004 03:53									#380
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx The thing I don't get is this: What IS it with you people and this paranoid NEED to control? This burning NEED to stick your noses into everybody else's business and tell us all how to live, where to live, where we can (and cannot) work. What our maximum salary can be, how we can use our own inventions..... The list goes on and on. What is it you are so afraid of? -=Vel=-

It's neither fear or paranoia. It's a basic desire for justice.

	21-08-2004 03:53									#381
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quote: This burning NEED to stick your noses into everybody else's business and tell us all how to live, where to live, where we can (and cannot) work. What our maximum salary can be, how we can use our own inventions.....

Capitalism does a pretty good job of that for most people.

	21-08-2004 03:54									#382
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious it's the only possible system for the future.

WHY?


I like the current system of democratic regulated capitalism ( I think Canada works fine thanks-- lots of problems but less than what I see in what you advocate). If I work hard, I get ahead-- if I don't my ass gets fired .. . seems "fair" to me

If I make money that I can save-- I accumulate wealth-- thats fair even if I have more or less than my neighbor

The government takes a chunk of my money and uses it to help out those with disabilities, mental and health problems AND those that are too lazy to get off their fat asses-- I find that fair too

I like our system and about the only thing that would cause me to bear arms would be the types of enforced "government" as proposed by kidicious. I would fight this until the day I died

	21-08-2004 03:55									#383
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx How is consumption going to magically generate tools?

No. You sacrifice current consumption for tool production.

	21-08-2004 03:55									#384
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So let me get this straight.

You don't trust.

Because you don't trust, the only possible way for their to be justice is to have tight control over every aspect of what everybody in your utopia is doing, how they do it, when and where they do it....the whole ball of wax.

And you're saying that ONLY THEN will we have "justice."

Oh.

My.

God.

:: speechless::

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 03:57									#385
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Flubber....and you would not be alone, bro...I got your back!

Aggie....d'oh! I don't recall seeing anybody from the Columbia People's Housing Authority coming with me to pick out my home.....did they miss that memo?

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 03:58									#386
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Right-- but the bulldozer was an innovation that was once hard on the planners . Under your system the inventor has no incentive to share it--really no incentive to build it at all-- so guess what it doesn't get built as fast. So the planned economy has a 100 workers with shovels while the capitalist economy has 1 guy IN a bulldozer and a couple of dozen making bulldozers . The rest of the workforce are probably making other innovations. Tell you what, my capitalist economy will sell you a bulldozer but that will be a net outflow of capital and since you can't borrow the money, I hope you have the cash--Perhaps you are more efficient in other areas and can actually generate a surplus

When did I say to use shovels instead of bulldozers when bulldozers are more efficient?

	21-08-2004 04:00									#387
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No. You sacrifice current consumption for tool production

Ahhh....so instead of building in a profit, we'll just levy more taxes. Good loophole. I like it.

When did I say to use shovels instead of bulldozers when bulldozers are more efficient?

Well let's see now....that would have been around the time you said that it's the amount of WORK involved....not the productivity. So yeah...shovels = more work. That's gotta be better.

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 04:00									#388
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It's neither fear or paranoia. It's a basic desire for justice.

Who's justice? The one dictated by the magical " we'?


My justice involves equality of opportunity. My grandfathers were both labourers, my parents a teacher and a nurse, me a lawyer married to a nurse. I do better than average financially and gol-darn-it-- I deserve it-- I work harder than average, have taken more education than average etc etc

soo if soemone makes less than me, my justice says boo-hooo-- I have no problem paying my Canadian taxes which support the needy and I give generously to my chosen charities-- but if some ablebodied person out there makes less than me --- I'll say it again BOOHOOO

	21-08-2004 04:00									#389
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Now we get to the crux of the matter. It's only fair when Kid gets to tell us how we can live. THEN its fair. Does that sum it up? -=Vel=-

You don't want to let this go do you? I'm a firm believer in democracy.

	21-08-2004 04:02									#390
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How is allowing this mythical "we" (of which you will no doubt be a part of) telling me how to run EVERY aspect of my daily life strike you as democratic?

Please tell...I'm dying to know!

-=Vel=-