21-08-2004 01:44									#301
	Full PM-box? Change here!

And quite beautifully illustrated by your earlier example re: Soviet excellence in base-level research, and parade of failures in actually bringing new stuff to market.

Top notch.

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 01:45									#302
	Got spare money?

Free market over Planned anyday, even for fledgling societies (sans massive worm activity that is)

	21-08-2004 01:48									#303
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yes yes! But quite right, those worms, 'specially early game...really knock you for a loop...UGH

(which reminds me, I must get back to my favorite game.... )

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 01:54									#304
	Get a bigger avatar today!

It does make the point illustrative to consider Police State SE choice the equivalent of the desire for the select few to hold onto power using brutal means at the expense of innovative energy and Planned SE choice the equivalent of instituionalized beuractic innefficiency. And as one knows the combination of both normally means complete stagnation.

Simplistic models no doubt but the illustration holds.

	21-08-2004 01:56									#305
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Free market over Planned anyday, even for fledgling societies (sans massive worm activity that is)

But Planned combined with democracy and a children's creche for short periods can be a boom to your growth and is highly recommended

	21-08-2004 01:57									#306
	Put an end to popups!

One of the (numerous) endearing traits of the game you make reference to is its thoughtful construction and attention to detail.

Oh, no doubt, the models are highly abstracted and simplistic compared to the real thing, BUT....they're grounded in reality, and sufficiently so that it serves as a good barometer.

Excellent analogy...

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 01:59									#307
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well I thouht about it for awhile. I thought about giving incentive or reward for innovation. Then I thought about how that would work out. The problem that I saw is the increase in supply that innovation creates. Planners would have two options. One, they could drop the price of the good, or two, they could displace workers. Of course, they could do a mixture of both. Then I realized that giving incentive for innovation is not as good as originally thought. The more innovation in the economy the more nightmares that are created in planning. Admittedly, even though this problem exists in capitalism, in communism it's worse. In the long run innovation is good for both, but the tendency will always be to keep innovation to a minimum in a planned economy. So, any incentive for innovation will have to be small if any. Communism of course does much better with higher technology, and slow rate of innovation. That is, communism is better as a future economy.

	21-08-2004 02:01									#308
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

So will you delay the revolution until technological advance stagnates-- say another thousand years before you bring it up again?

	21-08-2004 02:02									#309
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Flubber But Planned combined with democracy and a children's creche for short periods can be a boom to your growth and is highly recommended

Well if you live in that addon universe, you can simply make everyone exstatically happy and achieve the same result sans planned.

	21-08-2004 02:04									#310
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Problem there though, is that innovation is still mostly driven by creative individuals and not by government think-tanks.

Even if you don't actively reward innovation, if I make a tool to enhance my personal productivity, I'll keep it a secret from you. I'll use it to do the same work in less time...which will give me "unfair" amounts of free time to think up ways of exploiting you and so forth.

Or, if I think I can get away with it, I'll pass myself off as a REALLY industrious worker and use my tool in secret to make significantly more stuff than my neighbors.

Since we're getting paid on the basis of piece-work, that means an "unfair" amount of salary over and above my neighbor...which gives me the means to exploit him.

Even if you don't compensate me for the invention itself. (cos I'll use it to compensate myself, at least on a certain level)

So what's next?

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 02:08									#311
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx I'd love to take credit for that gotcha, but in truth, you just skewered yourself. Props, Kid....that was awesome. -=Vel=-

I allowed you to create the context of the debate. Oh well, sometimes it's better to lose.

	21-08-2004 02:10									#312
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Flubber So will you delay the revolution until technological advance stagnates-- say another thousand years before you bring it up again?

Let's take it day by day. I never claimed we were ready today anyway.

	21-08-2004 02:11									#313
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

btw, I like SMAC too, and I like to pop boom.

	21-08-2004 02:16									#314
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Problem there though, is that innovation is still mostly driven by creative individuals and not by government think-tanks. Even if you don't actively reward innovation, if I make a tool to enhance my personal productivity, I'll keep it a secret from you. I'll use it to do the same work in less time...which will give me "unfair" amounts of free time to think up ways of exploiting you and so forth. Or, if I think I can get away with it, I'll pass myself off as a REALLY industrious worker and use my tool in secret to make significantly more stuff than my neighbors. Since we're getting paid on the basis of piece-work, that means an "unfair" amount of salary over and above my neighbor...which gives me the means to exploit him. Even if you don't compensate me for the invention itself. (cos I'll use it to compensate myself, at least on a certain level) So what's next? -=Vel=-

First point is that most work will be done in teams so secrets won't be so easy to keep. Second point is, earning yourself free time isn't so problematic as earning more money. Three, there would have to be a ceiling on salaries. In general rewarding people with free time is much better and easier to plan, because supply will be more constant. Does that address everything.

	21-08-2004 02:22									#315
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe The whole innovation topic brings to mind a current dillma I am very much exposed to. The fact is most companies are looking towards decentalized R&D that emphasizes business unit R&D development. The thought being that any breakthroughs are more aligned towardscustomer needs and also that innovations are geared towards a more entreprenurial approach. The centralized R&D strengths are that it allows potenitally for cross fertilziation of ideas but suffers greatly in that often times breakthrough in innovation are poorly communicated to the sales/business arms and hence are not directed properly nor implemented. The same parralels I think apply in grander scale to planned verses entrepenurial soceities. Hence while the Soviet union was magnificinet as basic research as evidenced by any number of chemists physicists etc. the implementation of these technologies into mainstream consumer products was greatly lacking as there was no driving force to do so.

Good point. I've studied this. Very interesting.

	21-08-2004 02:25									#316
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker But I thought people were to be paid for the effort they put into their labor... ... or was it paid based on the value of their labor? And what's the difference (in terms of your theory) between thinking and labor, then, if both have a value to society, and both paid for? EDIT: as others have said, moot. Major @ Kid; I take back what I said earlier.

Thinking doesn't exploit labor it contributes to it. Communists aren't against thinking it's the sensless class transfer of wealth that we oppose.

	21-08-2004 02:28									#317
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Flubber Wouldn't it be so much betetr to offer VEL a fair price for his invention absed on the impact it would have on industry?

I answered this one right?

	21-08-2004 02:29									#318
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Well if you live in that addon universe, you can simply make everyone exstatically happy and achieve the same result sans planned.

But such "golden ages" usually require the allocation of resources toward luxuries instead of science or the economy

	21-08-2004 02:33									#319
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx It's not taking the tool that he built though. It's paying someone else to build another one. Yep. But without my cooperation in giving the prototype up, you'll have to take it (ie - exploit me....you know, the thing you despise. But then someone said once that we all become what we despise).

Why wouldn't you cooperate?

	21-08-2004 02:38									#320
	Suffering from ads?

A whim?

He thought maybe he could hold out for more, given that it was he who invented the device?

	21-08-2004 02:40									#321
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Flubber hmmm but people are paid for their effort, not their output right?? So my work is thinking and I think hard all day but don't create any tangible product all day. My co-worker comes up with two brilliant ideas during an early round of golf, browses poly all day and leaves early-- who gets paid more? who measures it ??

There's no incentives possible for this type of work. Incentives only work for production.

quote: Originally posted by Flubber Also real life This is not an entirely far-out point-- I'm a lawyer and get paid an hourly rate ( not busy today -- no project to bill until my meeting later ). But sometimes when drafting a complex 100 page agreement, I get so involved that I am thinking about it morning, noon and night-- I've had major flashes of insight while playing hockey, or while gardening .... ObviouslyNOT actively working. Now .. . I grab my dictaphone and will bill the client for the time it takes to specify and expand the idea but I don't bill for the night I spent tossing and turning mulling over the problem . . . the bottom line for me is that the client must be pleased with the overall product at the price I charge . .. If he's not, I probably lose the client. Its the free market at work and like the result. How does all this fit in with your planners?

Planning can't really compensate people for ideas they come up with after work.

	21-08-2004 02:41									#322
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Why wouldn't you cooperate?

What incentive does he have to cooperate?

	21-08-2004 02:44									#323
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Arrian I would be the first to admit that it would be a better world if my job didn't exist. But I think of a communist system and figure that a "planner" in that system looks an awful lot like me... instead of analyzing claims, they analyze production data or somesuch and make some sort of determination (build more of widget A, less of C). Isn't that work? -Arrian

Yeah. Your basic job is analyst. We need your skill. There will be work for you.

	21-08-2004 02:45									#324
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Solomwi What incentive does he have to cooperate?

Probably the greatest incentive would be recognition.

	21-08-2004 02:47									#325
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Well I thouht about it for awhile. I thought about giving incentive or reward for innovation. Then I thought about how that would work out. The problem that I saw is the increase in supply that innovation creates. Planners would have two options. One, they could drop the price of the good, or two, they could displace workers. Of course, they could do a mixture of both. Then I realized that giving incentive for innovation is not as good as originally thought. The more innovation in the economy the more nightmares that are created in planning. Admittedly, even though this problem exists in capitalism, in communism it's worse. In the long run innovation is good for both, but the tendency will always be to keep innovation to a minimum in a planned economy. So, any incentive for innovation will have to be small if any.

You've started out with the assumption that innovation is good, realized it is actually "bad" because it causes temporary instability (in capitalism; in a planned system, you basically say it's a major headache to deal with), and then you say you must have only a "small incentive" so you don't have too much innovation.

The problem, here, is that for the rest of us the assumption that innovation is good still holds, with the instability actually being a boon. Innovation actually always results in both lowered prices AND displaced workers, resulting in more people having the good (or more of the good) and more people free to work on completely NEW products.

quote: Communism of course does much better with higher technology, and slow rate of innovation. That is, communism is better as a future economy.

Innovation isn't necessarily technological - it can simply be thinking of a more efficient way to perform a task. A trivial example would be realizing that you could hit windows-e to open Windows Explorer rather than start->programs->windows explorer. A better one would be simply better management techniques.

	21-08-2004 02:48									#326
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think I'm caught up now.

	21-08-2004 02:49									#327
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Three, there would have to be a ceiling on salaries.

Then your most productive people will have no reason to compete with each other.

	21-08-2004 02:50									#328
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I think I'm caught up now.

	21-08-2004 02:54									#329
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker You've started out with the assumption that innovation is good, realized it is actually "bad" because it causes temporary instability (in capitalism; in a planned system, you basically say it's a major headache to deal with), and then you say you must have only a "small incentive" so you don't have too much innovation.

It's good, but yes too much too fast is problematic, even in capitalist system.

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The problem, here, is that for the rest of us the assumption that innovation is good still holds, with the instability actually being a boon. Innovation actually always results in both lowered prices AND displaced workers, resulting in more people having the good (or more of the good) and more people free to work on completely NEW products.

When will those new jobs for creating new products come out? You really can't say.

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Communism of course does much better with higher technology, and slow rate of innovation. That is, communism is better as a future economy. Innovation isn't necessarily technological - it can simply be thinking of a more efficient way to perform a task. A trivial example would be realizing that you could hit windows-e to open Windows Explorer rather than start->programs->windows explorer. A better one would be simply better management techniques.

Right.

	21-08-2004 02:55									#330
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Probably the greatest incentive would be recognition.

Which he can also get by being the greatest widget-maker of all time, with no one the wiser as to how he did it. Also, recognition is worth little without the money, and consequently hot cars and fast chicks, that accompany it.

Seriously, recognition is some small incentive, but by itself isn't much, and won't be enough to get the level of cooperation you need for the system to work, especially if he isn't a fan of the system.