21-08-2004 02:55									#331
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Three, there would have to be a ceiling on salaries. Then your most productive people will have no reason to compete with each other.

.

They will for time off.

	21-08-2004 02:58									#332
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Which he can also get by being the greatest widget-maker of all time, with no one the wiser as to how he did it. Also, recognition is worth little without the money, and consequently hot cars and fast chicks, that accompany it. Seriously, recognition is some small incentive, but by itself isn't much, and won't be enough to get the level of cooperation you need for the system to work, especially if he isn't a fan of the system.

Eventually the tech breakthrough will be implemented, and if Vel doesn't want to take credit for it, someone else will.

	21-08-2004 03:02									#333
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Regardless of who takes credit for it, a wrinkled, retired Vel can sit back, laugh and bring out his original prototype, thus fostering more distrust of the system. You'll have to have him liquidated on the eve of the "breakthrough."

	21-08-2004 03:04									#334
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Regardless of who takes credit for it, a wrinkled, retired Vel can sit back, laugh and bring out his original prototype, thus fostering more distrust of the system. You'll have to have him liquidated on the eve of the "breakthrough."

Must be an evil laugh. What a jerk? Just Kidding.

	21-08-2004 03:04									#335
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It's good, but yes too much too fast is problematic, even in capitalist system.

You can't have too much of a good thing

quote: When will those new jobs for creating new products come out? You really can't say.

The existance of those free laborers guarantees that someone will figure out how to employ them.

	21-08-2004 03:04									#336
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'k....home from work and ready to continue.

So...a couple points I'm not clear on.

Did you ever difinitively answer the question re: Is thinking work?

If you say that it IS work, then we've got problems, cos stealing my ideas becomes the same thing as stealing my work (which is a thing you advocated a couple pages ago).

If thinking is NOT work, then we've still got problems, cos your planning committee is doing a whole lot of thinking and no work.

But they still need to eat.

Which means we gotta pay those no working ba$tards anyways.

To do that, we'll need to build in a profit margin on the things we create, so we got enough fundage to pay the folks who "aren't working", but if we do that, aren't we exploiting the labor force?

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 03:05									#337
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Which he can also get by being the greatest widget-maker of all time, with no one the wiser as to how he did it. Also, recognition is worth little without the money, and consequently hot cars and fast chicks, that accompany it.

* Kuciwalker wonders if the switch-up was intentional

	21-08-2004 03:06									#338
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious They will for time off.

Why not let them work normal hours at their incredible rates for more money?

	21-08-2004 03:08									#339
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It's good, but yes too much too fast is problematic, even in capitalist system. You can't have too much of a good thing

Boy, you will believe anything won't you. Tell me one thing that you can't have too much of.

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: When will those new jobs for creating new products come out? You really can't say. The existance of those free laborers guarantees that someone will figure out how to employ them.

There's a little thing called time young skywalker. Do you know how time unemployed effects a person. They hardly ever get the same job back so their skill is wasted. They end up in a low skill, low pay job.

	21-08-2004 03:10									#340
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You make the system, I'll push it to its limits. That would be you defining the context of the debate....not me. I'm just taking YOUR system and putting it through its paces, which is EXACTLY what I would do if forced to live in this "Utopia." I'd be angling. Looking for loopholes.

Why?

To better exploit you with, of course!

Nah, seriously, because I don't want my life dictated to me. I chaffe under the Centralized utopia you propose. It doesn't work for me.

So I'll bend the rules to the breaking point to get around you and your silly rules.

That's what I do.

And for the record, I would most certainly NOT cooperate!

I'd find ways to use my tool in secret, team or no. If necessary, I'd coopt my team and dominate them (every group has a dominant figure, unless you're planning on eliminating selected traits from human nature....a bit of old fashioned reprogramming to go along with the utopia, mayhaps?) And convince them to share in the added profits or look the other way. Either way, I'd get around you.

And for the record, all I need is free time OR more money to exploit you. Having both makes it easier, but one or the other is just fine by me.



-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 03:14									#341
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx 'k....home from work and ready to continue. So...a couple points I'm not clear on. Did you ever difinitively answer the question re: Is thinking work?

Thinking is beneficial to work. It's not exploitive.

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx If you say that it IS work, then we've got problems, cos stealing my ideas becomes the same thing as stealing my work (which is a thing you advocated a couple pages ago).

The question to ask is 'why did you invent the thing?' You know you can't become rich. Maybe you invented it to keep it a secret, but why?

	21-08-2004 03:16									#342
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Okay, but that's not an answer.

Is thinking WORK, or is it NOT work?

And as to my reasons for inventing it...they're my reasons. Doesn't matter what they are, true? Whatever the answer, it doesn't change the debate.

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 03:16									#343
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Boy, you will believe anything won't you. Tell me one thing that you can't have too much of.

Happiness.

quote: There's a little thing called time young skywalker. Do you know how time unemployed effects a person. They hardly ever get the same job back so their skill is wasted. They end up in a low skill, low pay job.

You're an economics major. The Industrial Revolution was caused by, ironically enough, increases in the efficiency of agriculture. Farmers were out of work and came to the city, yes, taking low paying jobs, but fueling an economic revolutionand a huge spurt of innovation that ended up making everyone better off.

	21-08-2004 03:17									#344
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx And for the record, I would most certainly NOT cooperate! I'd find ways to use my tool in secret, team or no. If necessary, I'd coopt my team and dominate them (every group has a dominant figure, unless you're planning on eliminating selected traits from human nature....a bit of old fashioned reprogramming to go along with the utopia, mayhaps?) And convince them to share in the added profits or look the other way. Either way, I'd get around you. And for the record, all I need is free time OR more money to exploit you. Having both makes it easier, but one or the other is just fine by me. -=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 03:18									#345
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker * Kuciwalker wonders if the switch-up was intentional

	21-08-2004 03:19									#346
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quote: You're an economics major. The Industrial Revolution was caused by, ironically enough, increases in the efficiency of agriculture. Farmers were out of work and came to the city, yes, taking low paying jobs, but fueling an economic revolutionand a huge spurt of innovation that ended up making everyone better off.

Enclosure?

	21-08-2004 03:20									#347
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Boy, you will believe anything won't you. Tell me one thing that you can't have too much of. Happiness.

Can't think of anything that helps your argument.

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: There's a little thing called time young skywalker. Do you know how time unemployed effects a person. They hardly ever get the same job back so their skill is wasted. They end up in a low skill, low pay job. You're an economics major. The Industrial Revolution was caused by, ironically enough, increases in the efficiency of agriculture. Farmers were out of work and came to the city, yes, taking low paying jobs, but fueling an economic revolutionand a huge spurt of innovation that ended up making everyone better off.

And there were periods of severe and prolonged unemployment.

	21-08-2004 03:21									#348
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Vel: well put

	21-08-2004 03:23									#349
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::takes a bow::

Thanks man!

And I'm really not trying to be an arse....if it comes off that way, I apologize in advance, but IFRIGGINHATEIT when well-intentioned people think they know better than I do how I should live my life.

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 03:24									#350
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Okay, but that's not an answer. Is thinking WORK, or is it NOT work?

How many times do you have to be told something? It's not work. It is time consuming though, and people must be compensated for it. that doesn't mean we will compensate people for coming up with ideas on their spare time or when they are suppose to be working.

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx And as to my reasons for inventing it...they're my reasons. Doesn't matter what they are, true? Whatever the answer, it doesn't change the debate. -=Vel=-

We'll just do without your invention, and you can be a big jerk. We'll get by.

	21-08-2004 03:24									#351
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quote: And there were periods of severe and prolonged unemployment.

Are you trying to say that it was better before the industrial revolution then, because of those periods of unemployment with the IR?

	21-08-2004 03:26									#352
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Okay...so thinking is not work.

Your planning committee does a whole lotta thinking then, but no work.

But as you say, they still have to be compensated.

So where do we get the money to pay them?

They're not "working" and so, not contributing to the system you have devised.

The ONLY PLACE I can see to pull funds from to compensate them is to build profit into what we make and sell.

Can you think of some other?

If we do this, are we not exploiting the labor force?

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 03:26									#353
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kid

don't you get that giving me extra time off at the same pay would be the same as giving me extra pay

After all I can work at the other widget factory as well-- If each is willing to give me the standard wage for producing the standard complement of widgets and each will give me time off once it is done, I will still get my higher pay-- you just make me do it the hard way rather than paying me for my productivity

	21-08-2004 03:27									#354
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: And there were periods of severe and prolonged unemployment. Are you trying to say that it was better before the industrial revolution then, because of those periods of unemployment with the IR?

Point: Innovation can be problematic in the short run if the development of new products does not keep up with the improvements in efficiency.

	21-08-2004 03:28									#355
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quote: Innovation can be problematic in the short run if the development of new products does not keep up with the improvements in efficiency.

But makes up for it and much, much more in the long run, so who cares?

	21-08-2004 03:28									#356
	Got spare money?

And fantastic! So I get to invent stuff in my free time and not give it up to the state. Perfect.

Now what happens when I start using my inventions at work to enhance my productivity.

We're being paid piece work style, so I'm gonna be TONS more productive than the rank and file....and since I get paid by the piece...I get more MONEY!

Now I'm in a position to exploit.....what's the next step?

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 03:29									#357
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Okay...so thinking is not work. Your planning committee does a whole lotta thinking then, but no work. But as you say, they still have to be compensated. So where do we get the money to pay them? They're not "working" and so, not contributing to the system you have devised. The ONLY PLACE I can see to pull funds from to compensate them is to build profit into what we make and sell. Can you think of some other? If we do this, are we not exploiting the labor force? -=Vel=-

We have to provide workers with tools too. Where do you think the resources for that comes from. That's right, consumption. Again, thinking benefits work. It's in the best interest of the worker to devote resources to it.

	21-08-2004 03:31									#358
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious We'll just do without your invention, and you can be a big jerk. We'll get by.

Meanwhile in a parell capitalist earth, Vel's invention makes him a multumillionaire. so he builds a new house and employes some staff. The widget factory either produces more widgets or produces the smae at less cost and the resources of the society goes on to other things. Its called progress.

Kid's system, we might as well scrap all the bulldozer's-- after all a 100 folks with shovels could have full employment doing the same work. Who cares that there is a more efficient way to work?

	21-08-2004 03:32									#359
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Whaaaaat?

How is consumption going to magically generate tools?

IF and ONLY if the value of what is produced is greater than the value of what is consumed will there be a net gain of anything.

That means, by definition, building in profits at the point of consumption (ie - charging more for the consumables than the value of the labor used to produce them). At this point, per your own d@mned definition, we're exploiting the labor force to drive the machine. Which means that what you're advocating is capitalism-with-jackboots.

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 03:33									#360
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber kid don't you get that giving me extra time off at the same pay would be the same as giving me extra pay

They both benefit you, but giving you time off will be easier on the planners often.

quote: Originally posted by Flubber After all I can work at the other widget factory as well-- If each is willing to give me the standard wage for producing the standard complement of widgets and each will give me time off once it is done, I will still get my higher pay-- you just make me do it the hard way rather than paying me for my productivity

No. You can't go and work in the other factory.