20-08-2004 23:06									#241
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Oh man, this is even better than libertarianism!

	20-08-2004 23:08									#242
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Okay wait....first you got paid based on how hard you worked...now we're doing it piece rate?

Which is it? I'm not asking to be an arse, but it really DID change in mid-stream.

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 23:09									#243
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It's changed multiple times. I already pwned him on that count, a few pages back.

	20-08-2004 23:10									#244
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Ah, here it is:

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Why don't you just make the point you were trying to make? Assume I say that he should be paid equally for his labor regardless of his output, even though I've said that I don't believe in that numerous times. See why I can't answer that question? Yes, because any answer you give would either be inconsistent with the above claim or with this: quote: Originally posted by Kidicious No. The value of labor is not the wage they are paid or the market price of what they produce. It's the amount of labor they put in.

	20-08-2004 23:11									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Kid...before the day of the revolution, you might wanna rethink a few things. -=Vel=-

Well I do think about it a lot, and you bring up a good point that I have not thought about. You can't be allowed to exploit the system obviously, but you should be encouraged to increase your efficiency.

	20-08-2004 23:11									#246
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Nice one...

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 23:12									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Okay wait....first you got paid based on how hard you worked...now we're doing it piece rate? Which is it? I'm not asking to be an arse, but it really DID change in mid-stream. -=Vel=-

Doesn't working hard allow you to make more?

	20-08-2004 23:13									#248
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Then you're welcome.

The problem with your approach, as I see it, is that any solution TO the problem turns you into what you despise.

If I make something and choose not to cooperate...choose not to just give it up for the state, then your only recourse is to steal MY labor...which is what you say you're against.

That means then, that the entire system built upon a fallacy.

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 23:14									#249
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But sometimes, you can work less and make more, because you have access to one of Vel's tools.

	20-08-2004 23:15									#250
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Right....Kid, there's a difference between hard work and smart work.

I can take vivarin for a week straight and produce a shiteload of whatever we're making....that's hard work.

Or, I can invent something that streamlines the process.

Now I can make as many as I was making before, but it only takes me six hours of labor instead of eight.

That's smart work.

Under your proposed system, any tool that allows me to do this will mean I get a paycut.

Under the piece-rate system, I'll be able to blow everybody's doors off and get a fat raise.

Can't have it both ways tho.

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 23:17									#251
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kid just curious

how does it feel to constantly propose that which 99.5% of people reject and which has about as much chance of happening as me putting myself in moon orbit from a running start


Oh and your last few posts seem inconsistent even contradictory to me.

IF


quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


The utility value will determine what will be produced, and it what quantity. The worker will be paid by how much he, or they, produce.

----------me
It seems producing more gets paid more .. . so if I figure out any way to work faster, I will get paid more



BUT then you say

--------------

"No. No. He can use his tool to produce things for himself. He can't be paid for using his tool secretly to exploit the system."

-----------------------------------
me again

It seems to me that you have crated a system where there is absolutely no incentive to create or innovate. Why would Vel bother to make his new tool (it required work) if he gets no benefit. Nor would his group of co-workers get any benefit. The only benefit would be to the "state" and I can't see folks busting a gut for that. Oh and paying me for my time to build the thing is useless . .. I already get the same wage for building widgets at the state factory

	20-08-2004 23:18									#252
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Then you're welcome. The problem with your approach, as I see it, is that any solution TO the problem turns you into what you despise. If I make something and choose not to cooperate...choose not to just give it up for the state, then your only recourse is to steal MY labor...which is what you say you're against. That means then, that the entire system built upon a fallacy. -=Vel=-

I wouldn't be stealing your labor at all. I would be stealing your idea. What is the cost to you?

	20-08-2004 23:20									#253
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Under the piece-rate system, I'll be able to blow everybody's doors off and get a fat raise. Can't have it both ways tho. -=Vel=-

I guess there would have to be a ceiling on your pay, but right now I'm just shooting from the hip.

	20-08-2004 23:20									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I wouldn't be stealing your labor at all. I would be stealing your idea. What is the cost to you?

The reality is that if you steal ANYTHING, it just won't exist to steal again. The inventor with 10 other great ideas, won't build or make them since they are so peeved at how you treated them

	20-08-2004 23:21									#255
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I wouldn't be stealing your labor at all. I would be stealing your idea. What is the cost to you?

So thinking isn't labor? No one who doesn't perform heavy manual work isn't doing "labor"?

	20-08-2004 23:21									#256
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Ahhh...so under your system, ideas don't involve work, and are therefor fair game to be stolen?

I'll answer your post in a moment, but your answer to this part is important to my answer to you, so I'm asking first.

Do I understand you correctly?

Under your system, it's okay to steal my ideas, because that's "not work." Right? And therefore, I'm not being exploited.

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 23:24									#257
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber It seems to me that you have crated a system where there is absolutely no incentive to create or innovate. Why would Vel bother to make his new tool (it required work) if he gets no benefit. Nor would his group of co-workers get any benefit. The only benefit would be to the "state" and I can't see folks busting a gut for that. Oh and paying me for my time to build the thing is useless . .. I already get the same wage for building widgets at the state factory

I never took individual innovation into mind when I thought of this system of innovation. My thoughts were to encourage hard work, not innovation. Innovation can be planned by the society. I haven't quite worked out the possibility of individuals are smaller groups of individuals thinking of ways to save their labor and earn more.

	20-08-2004 23:24									#258
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I wouldn't be stealing your labor at all. I would be stealing your idea. What is the cost to you?

If it's an idle daydream, nothing.

Useful ideas, those that actually lead to a new product or other item, actually require a lot of detailed implementation work.

You don't just have a passing thought and then the finished prototype suddenly Minerva's out of your head. At least not on this planet.

	20-08-2004 23:26									#259
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber The reality is that if you steal ANYTHING, it just won't exist to steal again. The inventor with 10 other great ideas, won't build or make them since they are so peeved at how you treated them

I didn't say that we wouldn't pay for innovation. I just said that we wouldn't allow exploitation through innovation. Society pays for the innovation - Society benefits from the innovation.

	20-08-2004 23:26									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Innovation can be planned by the society.

How many specific examples can you cite when this has been done?

	20-08-2004 23:26									#261
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But kid...the think-tank approach to innovation is probably the LEAST effective form imaginable!

Where do you think almost every worthwhile technology innovation got started?

Apple Computers got started in a garage (literally)

Microsoft in a run down trailer.

Innovation IS the little guy. The free thinker. The individual.

Your system would utterly destroy that.

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 23:27									#262
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So you propose a system that isn't even partially complete??

This isn't a detail dude . . . its a major concept and you "haven't thought of it" yet??

So glad folks like you want to be in charge-- I assume you see yourself as one of the central planners after all

	20-08-2004 23:28									#263
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker So thinking isn't labor? No one who doesn't perform heavy manual work isn't doing "labor"?

No. Thinking is labor saving, not labor.

	20-08-2004 23:29									#264
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No, Kid...you absolutely did NOT say that. Nothing about paying me at all. What you said was:

I wouldn't be stealing your labor at all. I would be stealing your idea. What is the cost to you?

I would be stealing your idea.

Not going nto let you wiggle out of that one.

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 23:30									#265
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber So you propose a system that isn't even partially complete?? This isn't a detail dude . . . its a major concept and you "haven't thought of it" yet?? So glad folks like you want to be in charge-- I assume you see yourself as one of the central planners after all

Like I said. It's just one personal idea of mine. If it needs work fine.

	20-08-2004 23:31									#266
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Just wanting to get you on record here:

Thinking is not labor.

You stand by this assertion, yes?

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 23:32									#267
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat How many specific examples can you cite when this has been done?

How about if I just remind you that there is a department in most companies called R&D?

	20-08-2004 23:32									#268
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I didn't say that we wouldn't pay for innovation. I just said that we wouldn't allow exploitation through innovation. Society pays for the innovation - Society benefits from the innovation.

Don't we have that now? If an innovation is useful, people will pay for it and those that want it then benefit from it. So useless crap is paid for less often and useful stuff is encouraged


Your planned system, I see the guy that revolutionizes industry being offered a cookie and a pat on the back.

Or the pentagon planned system where the planners end up paying $100 for a screwdriver-- bUt of course your planners will miraculously be free from the stupidity and graft of every central planning agency ever known to man

	20-08-2004 23:33									#269
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Hmm... Friday afternoon, 3 hours to go until I leave for the weekend... do I embrace the horror, or remain aloof? Decisions, decisions.

If I join in, we'll hit 500 faster, which is a good thing. But if we hit 500 too fast, a "part II" thread will spring up before I leave, which would be bad.

I'd like to count my options, so I can weigh them, whaddya say? 5 pounds? 6 pounds? 7 pounds? Why weigh on a sunny day? On a sunny day-ay, why oh why oh why weigh, hey? Why weigh?

-Arrian the mad (he usually only shows up on Fridays)

	20-08-2004 23:33									#270
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If it's an idle daydream, nothing. Useful ideas, those that actually lead to a new product or other item, actually require a lot of detailed implementation work. You don't just have a passing thought and then the finished prototype suddenly Minerva's out of your head. At least not on this planet.

You forget, this is the Kidiverse