11-10-2004 18:07									#211
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EDIT: Ah, I hate it when the pages break beetween 2 linked posts - go to last post in the previous page for this one to make any sense

And in return, swallow our pride and ask the gaians to put the Angels' commlink on the table pre-accepted and we'll reciprocate with Morgans'?

Or do we jealously guard that knowledge (both commlinks) to ourselves?

(And, obviously I think, the Angels don't have Morgan's either or surely Gaia would have gotten it from them)

So what - other than fear-mongering - leads Morgan to conclude that there is a deep Angels-Gaian axis?

	11-10-2004 18:38									#212
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Edit: See last post in previos page if this is the first post you go to, then continue from there

Then we'll offer to sell the Gaian commlink to Morgan for 25 ec's?

(As an aside, when they opened the 2140 turn and saw all our techs and commlinks on offer, the Gaian one was absent - and what really bugs me is that I opened that commlink and offered all techs right after establishing contact with the Gaians, to see if they had already met, and in its absence we've then worked on that assumption - and my explanation in the Embassy (which was the truth) was that we were investigating whether Morgan had already contact with "another faction that we have just met". This would lead them to assume that it was one of the AI factions we'd met

Further, they'd assume that we hadn't yet met the Gaians, since that faction's commlink didn't appear on the offer sheet (well, not necessarily, although they will now if they trust my Embassy response. They might originally have assumed that we were "being selective" re: what we exposed in the trade offer window)

All of this certainly puts a different spin on affairs (to say nothing of making the head spin!!)

I suggest:

We ask the Gaians to put the Angels' commlink on the table, pre accepted, and in return (next turn) we'll give them Morgan's pre-accepted

We ask Morgan (right now, or at least before the turn reaches Morgan) if they want to buy the Gaians' commlink for 25 ec's (is that a fair price, or do we ask what they're willing to pay for the Gaians commlink?)

IMO we're in the same position (actually at least 25 ec's better off, and maybe 50 ec's better off) than we were before Illuminatus posted that Embassy message, so I don't see any downside to this

Except - some opportunities may be lost (in our hoarding intelligence), so they (the potential lost opportunities) need to be aired and possibly quantified, before a decision is made (but must be made soon - ie before the Gaians' turn-end - if we are to capitalize. Or postpone the whole possible commlink exchange for another year - what we don't want to do is straddle 2 years)

(in other words, pull the same trick on the Gaians that we were suspecting they were trying to pull on us when they asked us to remove the 25 ec's from the table - and in retropect they prolly weren't being nefarious, but just thinking ahead - possible Angels for Morgan swap, maybe?)

(Of course, we must also decide if we really must have the Angels' commlink so urgently. Maybe we just offer to sell the Morgan link to the Gaians (rather than trade for the Angels) and also sell the Gaians' link to Morgan)

Junta's thoughts?

Last edited by Googlie on 11-10-2004 at 18:54

	11-10-2004 18:45									#213
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How about first checking if we can sell gene splicing to the Morganites, and DocFlex to the Gaians? And if we can get their commlink, Gene Splicing, DocMob & DocFlex to the Angels? That way we can prevent that eg the Morganites sell DocMob/DocFlex to the Gaians/Angels, and that in five years time the Gaians sell Gene Splicing to the Morganites.

	11-10-2004 18:50									#214
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That's good

(We make it one of Kassi's priorities to get megacash for GS from Morgan and DF from the Gaians)

	11-10-2004 18:53									#215
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aha - problem solved

(Go to the fresh 2141 turn, and open it, then click on Morgan. That screen that I left open last turn comes up. now click on the "offer all techs" again, and the gaian commlink gets added.

I must have tested Morgan immediately after R-112 met the mindworm in 2140, so from the game's perspective, as I hadn't yet opened the Gaian commlink, we hadn't yet met. By 2141, when we had a treaty, we'd obviously met, so the commlink gets added to the list of available techs)

	11-10-2004 18:58									#216
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How about a stall-response to Illuminatus along the lines of:

Unfortunately the Chairman is not being very compliant right now as regards parting with commlink information - (which is true - he won't sell us the Angels' one ) perhaps as a result of our rover rummaging around in his territory. However rest assured, we will keep trying

So we wouldn't be lying, just letting the Gaians draw their own (wrong) conclusions

Meanwhile trade deals can be consumated, ec's accumulated, techs probed from Zak, others' paranoia fuelled, etc etc

	11-10-2004 19:25									#217
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quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader I've been mulling this whole episode in my mind all day... I believe that we could probably instill more emphasis on this by having someone else post under Snoddasmannen's post in the Gaian forum, something like this: "Although Captain Snoddasmannen's apology has been rendered. Let it be known that this was not, as he claims, a request by the Junta Disciplinary Board of Inquiry, but instead a demand that he do so. Officer of Spartan Internal Affairs, Charge of Junta Disciplinary Board of Inquiry. (Someone correct my terminolgy or spelling)

That would work well. I think it could also be interesting for somebody else pretending to be from the Hiverian shadow Junta to jump in and defend me. I don't really need defending at the moment however, let them think I'm a troll. When the time comes, other members of the shadow junta might surface, and then the Gaians can start putting together the pieces.

	11-10-2004 19:26									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie How about a stall-response to Illuminatus along the lines of: Unfortunately the Chairman is not being very compliant right now as regards parting with commlink information - (which is true - he won't sell us the Angels' one ) perhaps as a result of our rover rummaging around in his territory. However rest assured, we will keep trying So we wouldn't be lying, just letting the Gaians draw their own (wrong) conclusions

I like it

	11-10-2004 19:33									#219
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quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader I believe that we could probably instill more emphasis on this by having someone else post under Snoddasmannen's post in the Gaian forum, something like this: "Although Captain Snoddasmannen's apology has been rendered. Let it be known that this was not, as he claims, a request by the Junta Disciplinary Board of Inquiry, but instead a demand that he do so. Officer of Spartan Internal Affairs, Charge of Junta Disciplinary Board of Inquiry.

And in the context of Illuminatus reply to S's apology:

quote: Posted by Illuminatus in the Embassy I cannot accept apology. I do not wish to condone anyone's opinion, no matter how bad is it, because it is the democratic right of him to do so. You should not apologize to me for simply saying what you mean, but to Junta for bypassing their laws and protocols.

Perhaps a short piece by me in response, (as Recording Officer to the Junta) explaining "how the Junta works" during Colonel Santiago's indisposition, might be able to use the above as an example.

eg,

"We are an aggregation of senior and less senior officers whose comon line of command is to the Colonel. Even Lt-Col Maniac has restricted authority, so the Junta currently operates much like a fledgling Democracy already. But in the absence from meetings of our founder, the Colonel, "laws and protocols" are still in the process of being developed, so technically the (now) Lieutenant breached none that were in effect at the time.

However, ................" (and here KK's suggested wording - amended slightly - can be inserted)

I could even go on a little about "Hawk" and "Dove" splinters (leaning towards the Hive and Gaians respectively)

I'm off to golf right now, so will have a go later today and submit something for the Junta to mull over

	12-10-2004 03:10									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie aha - problem solved I must have tested Morgan immediately after R-112 met the mindworm in 2140, so from the game's perspective, as I hadn't yet opened the Gaian commlink, we hadn't yet met.

Uh - okay.
This probably offers an explanation (partial one any ways) to my post in the Sparta-Morgan Relations thread.
When I was checking things out, other units had already moved and so the game had registered the contact.

	12-10-2004 03:20									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie And in the context of Illuminatus reply to S's apology:

Yea. Since he replied in the meanwhile, we have to change somethings, else it loses its intended effect.

quote: Originally posted by Googlie Perhaps a short piece by me in response, (as Recording Officer to the Junta) explaining "how the Junta works" during Colonel Santiago's indisposition, might be able to use the above as an example. eg, "We are an aggregation of senior and less senior officers whose comon line of command is to the Colonel. Even Lt-Col Maniac has restricted authority, so the Junta currently operates much like a fledgling Democracy already. But in the absence from meetings of our founder, the Colonel, "laws and protocols" are still in the process of being developed, so technically the (now) Lieutenant breached none that were in effect at the time. However, ................" (and here KK's suggested wording - amended slightly - can be inserted)

Sounds good.

quote: Originally posted by Googlie I could even go on a little about "Hawk" and "Dove" splinters (leaning towards the Hive and Gaians respectively)

I feel that this would be a little too much.

quote: Originally posted by Googlie I'm off to golf right now, so will have a go later today and submit something for the Junta to mull over

I never understood this. How can you derive satisfaction from trying to put a little ball in a small hole?

	12-10-2004 07:23									#222
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quote: Posted by Googlie in the Embassy, (Military Affairs category) We understand your reluctance to expend energy credits for information you hope to soon have yourselves. Unfortunately the Chairman is not being very compliant right now as regards parting with commlink information (perhaps as a result of our rover rummaging around in his territory}. However rest assured, we will keep trying. (And please pass on our best wishes from our covert operations specialists to your undercover agents as they attempt Hive infiltration. The offer is still open to provide specific Hive base data if you wish to view any base defenses beforehand) Major Googlie (Commander, Covert Operations, Sparta Federation)

	12-10-2004 07:49									#223
	Remove this text

Suggested response to the Snoddasmannen Incident:

Dear Lord Illuminatus:

As Recording Officer to the Junta I have been asked to outline - to the best of my understanding - how our Junta operates and how our faction is structured. This may assist you and your colleagues to better appreciate and assess how we "do business"

We are an aggregation of senior and less senior officers whose common line of command is to Colonel Santiago, our faction's founder and leader, who is currently indisposed. Even the current Chair of the Junta, Lt-Col Maniac, has restricted authority, so the Junta currently operates much like a fledgling Democracy already.

Officers have coalesced into two or three groups with common agendas, and while views may differ between and among these groups, concensus is usually reached, albeit occassionally with a dissenting voice or two

But in the absence from meetings of our founder, the Colonel, "laws and protocols" are still in the process of being developed, so technically the (now) Lieutenant Snoddasmannen breached none that were in effect at the time.

However, the view of the Junta as a whole was that such a serious breach of protocol could not be let stand (Major Kassiopeia is the Officer Commanding our Diplomatic Corps, and as such should have been the sole contact carrying any official messages to your faction, unless the Junta has expressly authorized another in specific instances - such as they have with this message)

Lieutenant Snoddasmannen (formerly Captain) siezed the opportunity afforded by your communique to him to respond directly to you in a scabrous manner. (And note that his comment to you, in apology, that the Junta had requested that he issue such an apology is incorrect. The Junta demanded that he do so.)

Which is not to say that he and/or his supporters in the Junta may not be emboldened at some future time to again make their true feelings known to you directly, particularly if their strength in the Junta grows. That is one of the perils of our current "quasi democracy."

But rest assured that you are presently dealing with the true power base within the Junta - one that values the Gaians' friendship and which hopes that both our factions can prosper together.

Major Googlie, Recording Officer to the Junta

Last edited by Googlie on 12-10-2004 at 11:15

	12-10-2004 10:18									#225
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Good one Googlie, they will be quite stunned at this reply I reckon. Could get them talking

	12-10-2004 11:08									#226
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It's prolly a good time to post it as they must almost be wrapping up their turn.

I just wish Maniac and Zeiter had been able to comment if they were on board or not with the text

Heck - I'll post it anyway (after all. "the Junta asked me to give the Gaians my understanding of how the Spartan system works"

GGLIE

EDIT:Posted, with one addition (see large insert above, the not) that changed the whole meaning - thank goodness I caught it!!

Last edited by Googlie on 12-10-2004 at 11:17

	12-10-2004 22:38									#227
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Aha - some action at last.

Illuminatus has posted the Gaians turn in the general forum

In our embassy, he says:

quote: Posted in the Embassy by Illuminatus I am posting our turn this very moment. You should be pleased to know that I offered you the commlink, as agreed

I guess that's that, then - we get the Angels commlink this turn or next (he didn't say whether it was pre-accepted) and we pay 25 ec's for it (I am assuming the price didn't go up - the 25 ec's was never formally agreed to) Maybe my bluff re Yang not talking - which was meant to convince them that we didn't have Morgan's commlink - will backfire and we'll see the Gaians asking 50 ec's for the Angels' !!

	12-10-2004 23:00									#228
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Could also be that they have made arrangements with the Angels before hand on how they should be interacting with us. I would have, if I were in their garden. (This is assuming the Gaians and Angels are sleeping in the same bed for the rime being.) For some reason, call it a hunch, I don't think we'll be paying more than 25 e.c.'s...

	12-10-2004 23:24									#229
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Hmm - if they were smart, they'll have sold ours to the Angels on a pending basis (so that the Angels can't calll us right away, but they'll have to accept the offer before passing on the 2142 turn to us)

Then sell it to us on a pending basis, so that we pay and accept, but the whole deal isn't finalized until with their next turn the Gaians activate both.

When we then open the 2143 screen, to see the Angels diplobox open, we'll know we've both been had

(Am I being too suspicious??)

	13-10-2004 18:37									#230
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Great we can get the Angel frequency.
If this deal works out, will we offer DocFlex next for a sum of credits (or ask if they are currently researching anything interesting)?

	13-10-2004 18:59									#231
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If it works, we should try to get as much as possible (prolly cash, not techs, as I don't know that we want our already feeble research rate pummelled even more by a host of level-1 techs that we have gone beyond or don't need) from the Angels for Gene Splicing, then - or conucrrently - sell Flex to the A's and G's

And knowing what the others are researching never hirts

	13-10-2004 22:32									#232
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Doc. Flex is a big tech for both the A's and G's...

	14-10-2004 04:06									#233
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I imagine that they're trying to get it form leapfrog research, so might be open to paying a good price to us for it

	14-10-2004 21:01									#234
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The Gaians have (in this 2142 turn) put the Angels' commlink on the table, as expected, but not pre-accepted, as I surmised.

Do we:

a) - put 25 ec's on the table this turn, "accepted" and get the Angels commlink next turn (with the possibility (probability?) that the Gaians have also sold our commlink to the Angels?

b) - put 25 ec's on the table, "negotiating" (which means that next turn they'll accept, then when we accept in 2143 we get the commlinks) - which will call their bluff if indeed they have sold ours to the Angels (as the Angels wiull call us on opening the 2143 turn)

c) - stall for now and try again this turn and next to buy it from Yang? (we can do that anyway)

	14-10-2004 22:23									#235
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Do we presume that the Gaians researched Progenitor Psych last turn (see their special issue of Planetvoice)

	14-10-2004 23:29									#236
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Unless the Gaians are doing the obvious, sane thing and using their news outlet to push out false information and distorted truth. It doesn't look like they do - so yes.

I'd go with 25 ec on the table "negotiating", so that we can postpone it with one more turn and see how their play will roll out. We should also do our best to get it off of Yang, of course.

	15-10-2004 00:22									#237
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Was it stated anywhere, why the Gaians didn't want to trade technology and commlinks simultaneously...?

	15-10-2004 00:25									#238
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Dia we agree to not ontrade the 2 techs we got from the Gaians? (and if so, was it only not to other human teams?)

I called lal, and he wanted Ind Auto, I said the "fabricated tales reply", then he offered a treaty - I accepted, then asjked if he'd be interested in swapping techs.

He's offered ethcalc

Game is on pause .............................

Attachment: 2142-pkswap.jpg
This has been downloaded 12 time(s).

	15-10-2004 00:28									#239
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The embargo was on both human and AI players. For 5 turns after the exchange.

Of course, there's the matter of whether or not the Gaians will ever find out...

	15-10-2004 00:35									#240
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Hmm - I've been re-reading the trade:

quote: Posted in the Embassy by Illuminatus On the other hand, we understand your concerns and will hold secret your technologies for a minimum period of five years, and will never trade technologies to who we know your enemies to be for as long as we are on good terms (in game terms, not vendetta'd or overtly desiring vendetta).

Is the Morgan wing of the Junta "overtly desiring" vendetta with the Gaians?

That, to me, seems to indicate that they feel free to trade our techs to factions they know are friendly to us, or during any period they are in vendetta with us, or overtly desiring vendetta

They've given themselves a lot of 'off the hooks" (and I must admit that I didn't pick up on that earlier)

(Maybe we just execute the trade (save us pilfering Ethcalc from Zak) in the interests of establishing a stronger AI to keep the game interesting - and also, our 'understanding" is that these types of trade embargoes just apply to human-controlled factions (as you can't ask an AI faction in any event to observe an embargo)

G.