15-10-2004 00:38									#241
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From the Spartan-Gaian Embassy...

Date Posted: 08/10/2004 11:37 AM

- Embargo on third party onward trading: - Onward trading (to any third party, human or AI) is prohibited by both Sparta and Gaia...

Personally; I might be considered shrewd when negotiating, but I always hold my word, even if it means I screw myself (At least I learn for the next time...).

	15-10-2004 00:40									#242
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(As an aside, I tried calling Yang - to get the Angels' commlink - he won't talk.

So I've put the 25 ec's on the table for the Gaians, still "negotiating" (they never did confirm that 25 ec's was the price) and let's see if next turn the Angels call us first, before we pay up)

	15-10-2004 00:41									#243
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We can also use the "desiring vendetta" clause to our own advantage by a twist, claim that we were seriously planning it against them at the time or something similar.

I really have to keep a better eye on stuff like that in the future. And add similar stuff our own proposals. I am shamed.

	15-10-2004 00:44									#244
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You guys were posting while I was typing a reply for Googlie's post stating that 'the turn was on pause'.

I don't believe that Illuminatus said that (Googlie's next post) too give themselves a loophole clause to break the agreement. Then again, I may not see things the same way as the rest of you do...

	15-10-2004 00:46									#245
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KK:

But that was what we tried to insert into the deal after it was tentatively agreed.

That will apply to all future trades

But for this one (Gene Splicing and Mobility for Ind Auto and Ind Base), the Gaians negotiated us down to a 5 year embargo, with the weasel words that I quoted from Illuminatus above. They superceded our language, did they not?

As the "Morgan camp champion in the Junta", I'm inclined to go ahead and trade with the PK's, and live with any negative condsequences that may arise (after all, there's no-one else that Lal can trade it to - except Zak - as everyone else already has it)

	15-10-2004 00:50									#246
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Do it. We will keep it secret to the best of our abilities. If it's discovered and someone manages to actually prove it, we will deny it, and we'll spin the situation to the best of our abilities. This, of course, will require that the Junta and the Spartans keep silent about it.

	15-10-2004 00:52									#247
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Well, then why did Kassiopeia say in his before last post; "The embargo was on both human and AI players. For 5 turns after the exchange.'?

He should know what he negotiated. (or maybe I'm having a bad with comprehending the english language today?)


(Note: I would have quoted it directly, but don't want to take the chance of flipping back the page and losing this post.)


Edit: Make that the before, before last post. I see that he's posted while I was typing (lol).

	15-10-2004 00:55									#248
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Of course, we could always come clean with them:

"Our turnplayer currently has the turn open and has made contact with another of the AI factions (not The Hive)

They have requested a trade of Ethical Calculus in exchange for Industrial Automation, and in recognition of your ownership rights to the Ind Auto tech for five years, we are wondering if you would be willing to waive that restriction in exchange for which concession we will send you Ethical Calculus as soon as we get it.

However, Ethical Calculus will remain our intellectual property (as regards onward trading by you to 3rd parties), and such trades will be embargoed for five years as per the techtrading terms of our Treaty

Time is of the essence as Googlie is currently holding the turn open on his PC, so we would request a reply ASAP"

If they don't already have ethcalc, they'll jump at that opportunity

Plus, it will go a long way to "cementing" our Sparta-Gaian relations

	15-10-2004 00:57									#249
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quote: The Junta has agreed to lower the restriction period from 20 to 5 years. The restriction will cover gifting units with properties gained by the traded techs (such as special abilities, chassis, armour, weapons, etc.) to a faction without the technology, and the technologies themselves.

"A faction". That should include all of them, AI or human. We could argue that the common procedure is for this to cover human factions only if we need to squirm. But I'm confident that it will be impossible to prove that we traded the PK's IndAuto against this agreement.

And in our infamous edit:

quote: Embargo on third party onward trading: - Onward trading (to any third party, human or AI) is prohibited

	15-10-2004 01:00									#250
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I really, really don't think it's necessary to tell them anything about it. We can trade EthCalc to them for something to cement our relations if we want to.

	15-10-2004 01:02									#251
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'Course if we do execute the Lal trade, do we then call up Zak and maybe get yet another tech from him in exchange for Ind Auto?

	15-10-2004 01:05									#252
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The giveaway, of course, would be if the PK's and the Uni both then changed SE choices to WEALTH the same turn that we got Ind Auto from the Gaians

	15-10-2004 01:06									#253
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*groan*

dilemma...

I'm afraid you guys ain't gonna like my answer.


Oups! My Mother is calling me. I have to go. I'm afraid I can't be involved in this decision at the moment.

Be back later...

	15-10-2004 01:07									#254
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It'd be a giveaway, but the Gaians wouldn't have a surefire way to know that it was us. We could claim they probed it off of us, for instance. Or that either one of them discovered the tech by themselves and traded it to each other?

	15-10-2004 01:16									#255
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Well, they are the master/submissive team, so if one got it the other wouldn't be far behind

I still the "coming clean" concept, though. It'll give us valuable info as to whether the Gaians already might have EthCalc (although they are not running DEM, so I doubt it)

	15-10-2004 01:20									#256
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We will have to consider that it's very possible that they'll turn our offer down. Our door is closed after that happens, if the PKs get Wealth immediately the next turn they'll have way more ammunition against us.

EthCalc is an important tech to us is it not? We need it for the Maritime Command Centre.

	15-10-2004 01:32									#257
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Not the MCC (Flex and Ind Auto for that) but for the Citizens' Defense Force (Int Int - comes from Eth Calc and Doc Loyalty)

IIf they did say no, I'm pretty certain we'll get EthCalc from a Zak techsteal (it was Zak's highest tech I gave him in the sim I ran, and that's what I got in the probe action - and AFAIK there's a really strong probability that the prober steals the highest tech that the probee has)

And I don't see much likelihood of their turning our request down (unless they did already have it). It's a free tech for them with no downside (as they believe that we haven't yet met Morgan) to them. Why would they deny themselves it just to make sure that we don't get it?

(And, of course, if they did deny us it, we could trade anyway, and justify it on the basis that we found their denial grounds for vendetta - and were pondering excatly that - which, of course, nullifies the embargo

	15-10-2004 01:35									#258
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(Where are Lt Colonel Maniac and Captain Zeiter when we need them?

Still off in the forests on manoevers? Hugging Trees?)

	15-10-2004 01:36									#259
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Hmm. Okay, I'm fine with the coming clean suggestion. I'll wait for some others in the Junta to OK it (mainly Krysias) and I'll make a post.

	15-10-2004 01:44									#260
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They might haggle the "intellectual property" clause (as it is their Ind Auto that is netting both of us Eth Calc, notwithstanding that it is we who have the contact with Lal

(Hey, maybe we let them ontrade it to the Angels, in exchange for us on-trading Ind Auto to Zak!! That way they have an incentive to agree)

And I'm sure that KK will heave a sigh of relief if we do decide to go the honesty route. From his last post I was inferring that he really didn't want to go underhand.

(And Ethical Calc will be another item on our Morgan trade list)

But I'd PM and e-mail Illuminatus as well as posting to the Embassy - and give a time limit, of, say, till midnight GMT (I can't sit here with the turn stalled on my PC for hours)

	15-10-2004 01:58									#261
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I went ahead and did it anyway, then saved and closed the turn, taking no further action.

On something as important as this, the Mods surely will let me replay it if the Gaians refuse (I would have, as CMN of the last game) as it's unreasoinable to have the game sitting on the PC, tying it up, for a whole bunch of hours.

But when contacting Illuminatus, do stress the urgency (say that the turn is paused in midplay while we are awaiting their reply)

	15-10-2004 01:59									#262
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I vote for coming clean.

	15-10-2004 02:04									#263
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Midnight GMT? That's only two hours. Not enough. I could go to the Poly IRC server and try to hail him there though? Edit: He's no longer there. Probably not online either. I find it very unlikely he'll respond in time.

	15-10-2004 02:15									#264
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Well - the midnight was when I had the PC locked up in the game. Now we can be more flexible - maybe till, say, 2300 PST (which would be 0700 GST)

An alternative occurs to me

Maybe we pay the Gaians to lift the trade embargo (say 50 ec's)

"We have been contacted by an AI faction who wishes to acquire Industrial Automation (not the Hive). If you are willing to waive the trade embargo on Ind Auto we would be happy to pass over 50 ec's from the deal. (All 4 human-controlled teams now have it - Morgan is running WEALTH, so must have - so technology proliferation among the 4 teams is not an issue in this instance)

The turn is on 'pause' right now, so a speedy reply would be appreciated"

Then a few turns later we can try and sell them Ethical Calc for 100 ec's (or whatever)

Last edited by Googlie on 15-10-2004 at 02:22

	15-10-2004 02:25									#265
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GST?

I like the 50 ec thing, I'll post that and PM it to some prominent Gaians to get the info to them ASAP

	15-10-2004 02:28									#266
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I posted it, please review it for any problems, I'll start setting up the PM and email "bombardment"

	15-10-2004 02:28									#267
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LOL - GMT (I did that in the last ACDG as well, when giving a deadline.

GST is our Canadian Goods and Services Tax, the equivalent of the French VTA or the UK VAT

	15-10-2004 02:31									#268
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia I posted it, please review it for any problems, I'll start setting up the PM and email "bombardment"

I meant with the 50 ec's deal not to mention EthCalc at all - just exactly as i wrote in that little 50 ec's post

	15-10-2004 02:32									#269
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It actually stands for "Greenwich Standard Time", but I put in "GMT" to not throw them off.

And our GST/VAT/VTA is the ALV. 22%, except 12% for some particular products (at least food methinks).

	15-10-2004 02:33									#270
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I changed "Ethical Calculus" to "certain goods and services", so it can be anything from a Declaration of Vendetta to ECs