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skrobism
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No. That's what I meant. Go DR! When do we sue for peace?
JK.
I'll make sure Paddy and Snoopy know this.
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skrobism
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I believe this is the email from E_T that Paddy justly howls about.
quote:
The reason that I'm not giving the answers that you want, it that I'm just a member and not the person who is supposed to skeak to you. The only reason that I had replyed, is because of the urgency of your e-mails. Someone was suposed to get with you already. I just woke up and are trying to get ready for work, including getting my clothes dryed so that I can waerthem, and I'm etting lots of "paniced" e-mails, because someone wasn't around to do their job (which was to get with you and send you everything, lots of ****).
I don't have the time for this crap and have to go, beta of Scobism will send you everything
But to answer your question, no we aren't reniging.
E_T
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Oh E_T,
Why oh why did you air our internal dirty laundry to the world? Why, if you didn't have time, and obviously got up on the wrong side of bed, would you fire off this type of nasty email to an already touchy nation?
My goodness. You do know the ins and outs of every little Civ3 detail, but remind me never to assign you to negotiation.
Oh and I know that I missed out on the post that said this should be sent to BOH, but WOW is BOH pissed now.
I hope we don't have war with DR and BOH because of this.
(BTW - I do know it's just a game. Peace)
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skrobism
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I hope this helped. We need to get that tech (and some gold?) over to our allies ASAP!
quote:
Great Lords of the Horde,
Trust me when I say that Babylon did not mean to
offend thee nor break our promises to the TNA. We
acted in a way that was to aide all of TNA. We did
not intend to do harm to the Blood Oath Horde. You
are right to say that we should have not acted on our
own.
E_T was of the understanding that I, skrobism, had
contacted you. He acted with the understanding that
no news is good news. But of course, how could the
Horde respond?
To an outsider we in Babylon have a funny way of
talking. "Crap" is not always a bad thing. Being
used as fertilizer, it has a good meaning as well. As
in the following exchange between two field workers:
Shadrach: Greeting Avednego. How is my crappy friend?
Avednego: All is well. Same crap different day. And
you?
Shadrach: I'm craptastic. Are you still ******** that
load of crap bellydancer?
Avednego: Of course. You've seen her, why would I
give that up?
Shadrach: True. She looks like crap. Well, I must
be going. Enjoy your crappy job.
Avednego: Yes. And you have a crappy day.
See? So. I would apologise for E_T but I am sure
that he meant nothing of it. I for one was happy to
see your load of crap in my inbox.
It is obvious to us that you are not in agreement with
Babylon's plan to make Desolation Row pay more for
this tech. I will personally make sure that the tech
is sent post haste or publically impale myself.
(Maybe I'll ask DR if we could just replay this turn.
) I pray that our nations can get past this error
that I feel is so much my own fault.
So, as we say in Babylon, crap to you and your fields.
-Skrobism
Vox Inannum
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skrobism
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Well. That just might be my last jocular email to the Horde. I have not forgotten the way Paddy's tone changed with the Dispute over the AM territory that wasn't even captured yet.
I do think we need to comply with our original plan. Send the tech and a smile. We will not forget how quick the horde flew off the handle in this case, even after a reasoned explanation.
Paddy has got to be role playing. I don't get this tone from him in other posts or emails.
Something is up.
Last edited by skrobism on 12-07-2005 at 06:12
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Kloreep
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of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:33
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quote:
Skrobism
you write diplomaticaly, yet an insult is an insult, whether you can act like it is or not. and do you honestly feel E_T was not insulting me? Well I am insulted in this in many ways. Calling my emails crap being one of them indeed, no matter what you say here to make light of it. I would not take it so lightly if he said that to my face, nor am I willing to put up with his insults over email. E_T, you and I know many truths here, and we know your history. So lets here the truth, and in that lets see some backbone in your apology.
Skrobism, you say E_T did this in error, yet I say just as he feels the right to openly insult me, he also feels the right to openly manipulate me and the Team I represent. In this I see the signs of an old feud, a feud that comes from the bitterness of one who is a quitter.. and then needs to lay blame yet again. I see E_T has not learnt from his own mistakes, and is now using Babylon to fight a personal war against me... manipulation of your team... He and I have some history in ONE pbem, and it did not go the way he liked it. Well I be in many a pbem, and have some great histories with many of you, whether they be as allies, blood enemies, or just another player / nation.
as to Babylon's plan... No I am not impressed... so what if it is cheaper... you only have that technology thanks to the efforts of other nations... not of your own... I ask you again, what right does E_T have to make policy for the Horde and also for the Bards?
as to the techs, so then, you have not sent what ever tech "accepted"? I see there is still NO straight talking answer here
I hope you can answer the following:
1. Did you send tech accepted to Horde?
2. What is the technology?
3. Did you send tech accepted to Bards?
4. Does E_T have the right to change agreements between our nations?
This situation is getting dirty, and I must tell you that I feel very uneasy by how this took place. We all had the save for over a week... and only after the save is played do we hear anything... that is not just a busy weekend, that sounds like "Diplomatic Games" are afoot...
I await your reply,
Paddy |
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skrobism
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I did say that I would have that tech sent ASAP. I thought we should try to save the TNA.
E_T. Sorry. I was probably more PO'd at Paddy's Horde and myself for letting this slip.
I was amazed at your knowledge of the inner workings of this game. It was a brillant proposal that would have helped all of TNA, by hurting DR.
I say send them and Eu the Tech. (Hey where is Snoopy in all of this?) And get through this war.
In for a penny in for a pound. I thought DR would be taking the pound from us. BOH can go sit and spin. They have been so hostile through this whole relationship. We should see if the Alliance with Eu can be saved.
I will ping the Lost Boys later to keep in touch.
Should I try to re-establish contact with AM?
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Kloreep
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of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Beta
E_T - to be honest - I thought your note was ok. It was Paddy's attitude that blew me away and had I been responding, I probably would have said the same thing. As far as I am concerned, his notes were crap. |
E_T went over the line, but Paddy did so too, accusing us of reneging on very thin grounds. Calling it "crap" was a little much, but E_T is right: he was quite panicked and quite unjustly so.
quote:
Originally posted by Beta
Paddy's behaviour is either extreme roleplay (in which case we should be worried) or alcohol induced. |
If it's the former, screw him. If it's the latter, screw him and lower my opinion another notch. 
quote:
Originally posted by Beta
Either way, I am seriously considering giving up on BOH. They are too friggin high maintenance. |
I don't want to let myself reconsider an entire alliance over a single heated incident like this. That said, "friggin high maintenance" is it exactly. It seems like the minute something goes wrong or we make a mistake, Paddy is all over us.
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skrobism
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I guess we need answers to these before I reply.
E_T, what is Paddy talking about?
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Kloreep
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of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:33
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My opinion of how we should take things:
-Send BOH and Euphorica the tech accepted next turn. We did tell them we'd send on our free tech, we should provide it to them.
-Talk to Euphorica about the tech cheapening thing and ask what they think about benefits of giving it to them vs. cons of cheapening it for DR. Urge them to think about not accepting it.
-We already have talked to BOH and they are taking this totally irrationally, as shown in Paddy's latest e-mail. So... some things I believe we need to communicate:
E_T is not directing policy in this. The sending of the tech unaccepted was IIRC something E_T and I were talking about before I lost my connection, but regardless of what's on the diplo table, the team urges BOH to consider TNA's needs and not just their extremely short trust for us. Paddy said:
quote:
so what if it is cheaper... you only have that technology thanks to the efforts of other nations... not of your own... I ask you again, what right does E_T have to make policy for the Horde and also for the Bards? |
Guess what, buddy. You only have this tech because of our Scientific trait. What right do you have to demand we rush headlong in to cheapening this tech for DR, our enemy sitting right by Euphorica's borders? We don't determine BOH policy. BOH does not determine Bablyon or Bard policy, and most importantly, none of us determines TNA policy alone. For god's sake, does BOH want to be facing Pikes?
I think that covers 1 and 2 of Paddy's questions, and most of 4. (No, E_T doesn't have the right, but the team agreed that TNA should be careful about spreading Feudalism around too quickly. As for the whole thing between Paddy and E_T, E_T has never mentioned it and so far as I know has nothing in particular against Paddy. Like his accusation of reneging, I feel insulted and think he is making some big leaps to conclusions.) As for 3, did we send it to the Bards, no; Bards weren't even in the MA.
Now, some questions I'd like to propose asking Paddy:
Do you want to be facing DR pikes?
If not, then what is so "unimpressive" about the argument for not spreading Feudalism around? And what does who gets what credit for getting TNA the tech have to do with it? (We should be sure to point out we are not saying BOH should not receive Feudalism from us at all, just not necessarily now. We should also point out that Feudalism does not enable the further research of any techs till a second MA tech is discovered, so it's merely a matter of the units and government it enables at this time. Since we already got Monarchy, better in the long-term, I would imagine no one's looking for the gov, and we're willing to be convinced on the units side if BOH would simply state their case.)
Edit: Another thing. Make sure to state again that we will send it accepted to show that we trust them not only with the tech, but to make the right decisions about whether to accept it and to discuss that with us.
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skrobism
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I'll let a few others give their thoughts on this as well before I fire off another email.
Good points.
Man, what is up Paddy's butt?
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Kloreep
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of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:33
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quote:
Babylon, my allies,
I dare say I have pushed your patience this past 24 hours with my many emails. And in this I wonder due to the few replies, have I fractured our friendships.
Several of the Horde have come to me and we have discussed this matter.
Please accept my apologises for the pressure and accusations that I have levelled upon you in the past 24 hours.
As you may be aware, I came to a point of frustration and thus the emails when:
1. I was shocked to receive some "sort" of detail that we would not be receiving the tech. Thus having to go back to the team and say I was "wrong" and they were right, in sending the techs to Babylon, as in that Babylon would not send the "tech". Yes my pride in being "wrong" in this matter came out in my indignation as stated in the emails to you.
2. Further to this I took E_T's words personally, I accepted his insult as an insult, putting my back up and then demanding some sort of satisfaction. Thus making more of the situation than I obviously should have. My error again.
Your team, thus E_T, have a very valid point on the matter of the tech, and I was allowing both points 1 & 2 to rule my passion. In this it really would have been appreciatted by the Horde if we could have had this discussion at some time before the matter, not being told after the fact. My error in expecting that teams of our size etc were stuck when one player is away.
So please know, I have re-read all such correspondence and upon consideration please accept my apologises. I was wrong.
Paddy, of the Horde. |
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skrobism
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I will be gracious. I will paraphrase Kloreep's post that was suggested above.
I see two things here.
1 - Paddy makes it clear that his team does not trust us and that he goes out on a limb for us.
2 - Paddy was handed his arse by his team mates who told him to make nice.
Future of us with BOH.
Short term we stick it out through the war.
If they are as weak as I am in civ3 then long term it would be nice to make it to the end with them.
But wow! What in the world was that all about? He obviously went to bed and rose angry about this with out reading an explanation of any of it.
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Beta
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Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:33
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yes - here's his post as Klo posted elsewhere. Ouch.  But kudos for admitting his error in judgement and behaviour.
quote:
Babylon, my allies,
I dare say I have pushed your patience this past 24 hours with my many emails. And in this I wonder due to the few replies, have I fractured our friendships.
Several of the Horde have come to me and we have discussed this matter.
Please accept my apologises for the pressure and accusations that I have levelled upon you in the past 24 hours.
As you may be aware, I came to a point of frustration and thus the emails when:
1. I was shocked to receive some "sort" of detail that we would not be receiving the tech. Thus having to go back to the team and say I was "wrong" and they were right, in sending the techs to Babylon, as in that Babylon would not send the "tech". Yes my pride in being "wrong" in this matter came out in my indignation as stated in the emails to you.
2. Further to this I took E_T's words personally, I accepted his insult as an insult, putting my back up and then demanding some sort of satisfaction. Thus making more of the situation than I obviously should have. My error again.
Your team, thus E_T, have a very valid point on the matter of the tech, and I was allowing both points 1 & 2 to rule my passion. In this it really would have been appreciatted by the Horde if we could have had this discussion at some time before the matter, not being told after the fact. My error in expecting that teams of our size etc were stuck when one player is away.
So please know, I have re-read all such correspondence and upon consideration please accept my apologises. I was wrong.
Paddy, of the Horde.
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And yes - he is correct that we are slow at diplomacy.
OTOH - Paddy is on-line close to 24/7, and I think it is unreasonable for anyone else to approach this. And weekends often involve downtime - especially during the summer months in the northern hemisphere.
It does sound like some folks had a chat with him. Maybe even Euphorica.
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skrobism
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The email was sent. Most were copied.
quote:
Hail Lordes of the Horde and Bards of Euphorica,
(Please copy others members of the TNA as needed.)
A dark cloud has passed over our house. The war makes all of us weary and the Desolators spread distrust. But the Three Nation Alliance is a brotherhood of nations - together for the long haul. Brothers bicker over who gets to play with the football. Brothers say harsh words, and might even throw a fist or two. But when the big kid from down the street tries to take our ball, there is no time nor need for apologies.
In the past day Babylon did not send Feudalism as agreed nor expected. Babylon did not do this to cause ill will, we did this to help keep the TNA strong. Please believe this is not doublespeak nor revenge for something that happened in a past life.
It was asked of us if E_T or any Babylonian has the right to change agreements between our nations?
I will say this. No. E_T doesn't even play our turns. But he does have a way with understanding this world's (Civ3's) subtle ways and we respect those opinions here in Babylon. We are very democratic here in Babylon. We discuss things and come to an agreement. E_T does much of the domestic work. Kloreep plays most of the turns. But everybody gives his two cents and signs off on the moves. Nobody acts singularly here in Babylon. You can see why we are sometimes delayed in our responses.
Within and without Babylon there was a breakdown of communication. I was unavailable on Sunday. This was a topic that I assumed would be discussed at the TNA Summit that I guess never happened. My fault. If I would have checked the forum or email I would have seen that I had work to do. I would have PMed or emailed Paddy and Snoopy about this.
Babylon will be sending Feudalism to Euphorica and Blood Oath Horde next turn. Babylon asks that Euphorica and Blood Oath Horde re-read E_T's thoughts on this matter and consider the consequences of cheapening this tech and inturn giving Desolation Row Pikemen sooner than later.
The proposal is basically as follows (I can resend full details if needed):
Did you notice that the more nations that have a technology, the less it costs other civs to research that same tech? Feudalism does not enable the further research of any techs 'til a second MA tech is discovered, so it's merely a matter of the units and government it enables at this time. Since TNA already has Monarchy, which is better in the long-term, Babylon imagines that no one is looking for the government, and if you really want the units that it allows the tech is offered for the taking.
We hope that you will decline the technology for now. It is obvious that the Desolators are offering virgins to the RNG gods and finding favor. Do we really want to face Desolator Pikemen? In the event that after careful reading, you do decline, Babylon will continue to send feudalism until you deem fit to accept it. The tech is yours.
This is what Babylon should have done in the first place. We are sorry for the misunderstanding.
It is hoped that through your military strength, and Babylon's scientific prowess TNA will rid the world of the Desolators. Do not fret. This little row will not get in the way of our brotherhood.
Everyone needs a little TNA!
Music, Honor, & Love to you all.
-Skrobism
Vox Inannum
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skrobism
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Please notice I promised the following:
"Babylon will continue to send feudalism until you deem fit to accept it. The tech is yours."
We should probably do that.
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:33
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I was working on a more elaborate reply to all of the e-mails, including stuff in responce to the "accusations" that Paddy was banterig about. I was just short of sending it, when I got the e-mail from Paddy and then from Skrobism. So, I first Replyed to Skrokism's E-mail with this
quote:
I was working on a Very long, very detailed responce to the last several e-mails (from when I had gotten home, some 2 hours ago, to now) and just about to send it. I'll edit it some and send it. For one thing, the Picture that was supposed to be sent still hasn;t been, so as I allread have it in that responce, I'll send it then.
E_T
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Then, I edited out all of the Accusations part, added a few lines at the begining, and sent this:
quote:
Please note, that I had started writing this before the most recent e-mail from Paddy and Skrobism's reply. Some of the tone & wording was set-up without yet receiving those e-mails. As I've already spent 3 hours composing this, I'm not going to take the time to edit it any more.
I hope that this will add more Info to what has already been sent.
No, I was not insulting you, I was expressing my frustration as to having to have to send an e-mail to you all about this, especially when I had posted about a lot of this stuff, in our Forum, FOR SOMEONE ELSE who is supposed to (i.e. Skrobism or Beta) to communicate these things.
Also, I had just gotten over a 3 day weekend, where I was:
- running around, looking for tools to fix my mother's Shower, then had to run around AGAIN to find the right replacement part, because the one that we had gotten was the wrong threading (that was Friday)
- Go over to my sister's to help fix her air conditioner, because the Heat exchanger was falling through the crappy air/duct transfer box it was built on and because it was tilted the wrong way, was leaking all into her house. The AC guy that she uses wouldn't be out to fix it until much later in that week. I was finally able to jury rig it, to where it was back at right angle to drain and set up some additional temporary drainage for it (that was Saturday).
- Go back to my sister's to help lay a back patio (because I OWE her a LOT of money and this is one way I help to pay it off). I had also did several other things for her, while I was there (that was Sunday)..
All of which, I could have been working to eradicate a major flea problem that I have in my house (As I type this, there are about a dozen fleas chewing on my legs). I work 4, 10 hour+ days, from 11AM to 9:30PM or so, so I really don't have too much time when I get home to do much of anything.
And this Morning, I first off, had only around 4 hours of sleep. I had to get up early, to dry my clothes, because the timer on my dryer is busted and I can't just start to run it and go to bed. Then, because I was still so groggy, I made my Coffee, twice, resulting in a MAJOR Mess to clean up.
And then, just to sit down for a moment, while I'm waking up and before getting into shower, I see all of these e-mails from you, about the tech deals. I quickly check to see if anything has been posted about sending BoH and Euphorica all of the Intel & Concerns that we have gathered and found out that there wasn't anything sent yet. So, I send the quick follow up to Beta's e-mail, telling about DR being in MA and having Mono and that we have gotten Feudalism and that more would be send by the proper people when they get to it (hopefully). At around this time, I was starting my second pot of coffee, forgetting that I had already done the first one. I was pissed that you guys weren't informed, when you replayed back. I was in the process of replying, when I had gotten up to check if my coffee was ready, finding the mess. I also had to leave early, as I had to get to the Payment center for my Power company, pay the rest of my past due power bill, then come back home and call them to give them the receipt number, so that I don't come home from work (at night) and find my power shut off (and then later pay the reconnection fee). And get to work on time (just barely made it).
So, I finished the e-mail, with all of my frustration and other **** with the line
quote:
I don't have the time for this crap and have to go, beta of Skrobism will send you everything
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In no way, was I calling your e-mail crap. I was just expressing all of my frustrations at once. Someone else, should have gotten with you, days ago. Kloreep's Wireless router also went out and I had to play our turn (after getting home from my Sister's). It really hasn't been a fun weekend for me. And with me having gotten over my clinical obsession with Civ (was coupled with Depression and failing 'Marriage'), I really didn't want to get involved, in this level of things, because it's really a road that I don't need to go down. Doing what I'm doing, is risk enough, without this extra burden.
So, Paddy, if you took that Wrongly, I apologize. It was frustration at everything and I'm sorry that I had taken it out on you. But please don't forget, that this is just ONLY a game (I have to keep remembering that every tie I sit down at my computer, or it will suck me into it).
Now, the things that was of concern to the Alliance, all of which was supposed to be sent days ago.
I had posted, vital Strategic Intel Analysis on not only DR, but possible connection with LB (very possible that they are tech partners, would go a long way to explain the "peace" thread that 1889 has been trying to get going, he doesn't want to lose his tech partner). Along with this, While DR is in GA, they outstrip our Economy (At our Fully Maximum trade amount, we still can't reach them), while they were below us before their GA. Coupled with the very real possibility that LB might help finance their GA research, was a great concern, to the alliance. Further confirmation will come when DR sends Mono to LB (very likely the next turn). That will be good, as it will make Mono Cheaper for the alliance to research.
As the Alliance's tech goals are to get to Chivalry (all part of this tech deal), we DON'T want DR to have the possibility of getting to it first. They have Mono, they need Feud. Currently, their Cost for Feudalism is 720 Beakers, as we have Feudalism. With 2 Civs having it, the Cost is 640 beakers and 560 beakers with 3 civs having it. That cheaper that it is to them, the sooner they can get it. The Base cost for Chivalry will be 800 beakers, for the first person to research it. It is entirely conceivable, with LB possibly helping them, that DR could get to Chivalry BEFORE the Alliance does.
Does Euphorica want to have the possibility of suddenly facing DR Pikes and MI's? Or possibly, BoH want to suddenly face DR Knights? So, a very valid reason for concern, for the alliance.
So, stuff like this was supposed to be relayed, days ago. Again, my frustration that it wasn't.
We know that Euphoric is very likely waiting on Feudalism, as they have primarily slower ground units. So, we know that they will need it (or very likely so - another thing that would have been found out with better communication). We also know, that as of our save, they still needed to accept Currency from you, so that they would be able to receive Feudalism from either of us.
We also know that BoH's primary Army, against DR is made up of Horsemen and Ancient Cav, with a few Support units. And, that any Units that are upgraded, would not be able to be at the front for several turns.
While Kloreep was able to be online and in chat, we discussed sending Feudalism to you, Accepted and communicating to you to NOT accept it, if you didn't need it, after the ramifications of the 'cheapening' of that tech was communicated to you (through the proper channels). It was posted about in our Forum. Kloreep lost his connection/Router then, while he was playing out the turn. As he was unable to finish it up, it was put off for one more day, hoping that he would get things back up again. He didn't. At that time, all of this was supposed to be communicated, by someone. Which, when I had finally had to play the turn, nothing had been sent. And nothing else was posted on it. Our Forum was a wasteland, for a time, it seemed.
So, because of that, when I had played the turn, I had sent Feudalism to BoH, but not accepted. It was to be communicated, with everything else, that we had done that, asking that if BoH really, really needed that tech, right now, that they would accept it and we would accept on receipt of our next save. If not, we would then start sending, every turn, accepted and at the time that BoH Needed it, for either Upgrades OR to start on Chivalry, that they would accept it then.
And because of the delay, for Euphorica, getting into MA, we would also start sending it to them, accepted, and they would also accept it, when they felt it was right (which we believe will be immediately). And it doesn't matter, if BoH sends it to them OR us, as they would still have to wait until the next turn (after first accepting Currency).
So, apparently, nothing was sent, including the picture of the Barb Hordes next to DR lands (see attached picture). I'm sending it now. All coordinates are taken from our Horseman on the mountain:
4 Barb Horse - at 4
8 Barb Horse - at 7
4 Barb Horse - at 8 (next to DR Iron)
It is hoped that DR will soon have 12 (all within movement range for those) on top of their Iron, their next turn. Also, BoH needed to be aware of their presence, as they will soon be attacking that same city. Again, more stuff that was supposed to be relayed to the alliance.
That was pretty much it, I think.
E_T
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The Picture is the same as in previous Post, the one with the Barbs.
Also was sent to Euph
E_T
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:33
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Good Unit support, when you have smaller cities it's good, but when they get over size 6.... Free support amount is 5/2/1. Plus, the Unit cost is almost prohibative (3 gold per unit, over the free numbers). Also, you Pop rush instead of pay.
So, they are going to be expanding rapidly. Expect them to take over DR cities (which Euph was looking at) and then expanding into AM territory. They might also be looking at some of the Euph cities at some time.
If I'm right, with what their Capitol alone has been putting out alone (estimated at 2 turn Horsemen & 5 turn Ancient Cav), they will have to almost go 100% tax rate just to pay for their units, until they get more cities. Likely, Euph will be doing the Mono/Chiv research (or they will want us to, but we want to do Engineering - Invention, ect).
I'm really not liking this at all.
E_T
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11-07-2005 21:14
You might want to clarify that, although from the rest of the nore it should be obvious.
But I certainly would have been tempted to copy him that post beforehand.
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