17-07-2005 15:31									#271
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Paddy contacted me on MSN. I can't answer him, since I haven't been paying enough attention to what's going on right now. But maybe one of you can reply to him. We should be able to do one response in 18 hours ...!

Paddy says:
I wrote an explanation, and also 2 points on the current issues
and not a single reply in 18 hours, and the save played in that time

my questions:

1. do you understand the exolanation provided?
2. do you have any questions?
3. did you finalize the trade deal - accepted?
4. where did cain go?

I understand all will be revealed when we get the save... yet I ask in advance.

	18-07-2005 06:55									#272
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

regarding the e-mails - a response from Paddy. I presume none were coming from our team.

quote: Thank you for your concern Beta, The emails have been purged from my system, although I have kept all reference details that came with them - isp detail etc I believe my words should and your concerns will have their desired effect in bringing this matter to a halt. I see no reply to every thing else that has been mentioned though. Be well, Paddy

	18-07-2005 07:12									#273
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

To Paddy and Plato...

quote: Greetings to the other members of the former TNA. We have heard accounts of betrayal from both sides of this new conflict. The situation is still not well defined and this was a trade that was conceived as part of an alliance that clearly no longer exists. We are uneasy on sending Feudalism to either of you for the moment. We hope you will understand Babylon is simply trying to do the right thing. We will be in touch shortly. Regards ...Beta of Babylon.

	18-07-2005 17:05									#274
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

And a confirmation regarding Cain's peaceful intent, fow what it is worth (very little I figure.)

quote: Greetings Lords of the Horde We had sent a quick reply on the tech deal yesterday. I wish to clarify Babylon's position. In your recent explanantion letter, for which we thank you, you indicated the following: " I need to make two statements to your leadership. These are not said with malice, just simple fact, as I am at war. - Your trade of the technology, please understand that if you again do not complete this trade deal, that we will consider that as an act of WAR. Simple and clear. - Your unit, Cain (warrior 3/3), please understand that if he moves onto the road between Bloodview and Fort Napster (yes the tile next to him) that we will consider that as an act of WAR. Simple and clear." We acknowledge that an aggressive move by Cain, given your situation, would not be well received. Cain has avoided the road as requested. The tech trade is another matter altogether, and was addressed in my earlier letter. It was a deal that was conceived when the TNA still existed, and was in fact, part of a three-way agreement to strengthen all civs in the alliance. The situation now needs to be reviewed. Sincerely - Beta of Babylon.

	18-07-2005 19:52									#275
	Remove this text

So, the Horde can be reasonable.

Look Here

I find it interesting that the Horde has and continues to go public with its dealings now.

I do think that if we can avoid a war with the Horde now, that would be a good thing.

What about this?
We give Fuedalism to the Horde and Eu.
We declare our nuetrality and desire for peace.
We give Fuedalism to DR, LB, and AM (if they will have peace with us.)

I know some might argue that this Tech costs and we should be compensated, but peace does not come without a price.

	18-07-2005 20:11									#276
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm against send Fuedalism to BoH. Giving Fuedalism to BoH doesn't guarantee avoiding war -- they have proven and earned the distrust the world has in them. I've got the awful feeling that they are bed with DR and are coming for us.

I'm more in favor holding the tech away from them and forming a defensive alliance with LB, A-M -- and maybe Eu, but that one could immediately get us sucked into a war against BoH, so that would be contingent on a peace treaty being signed. However, Paddy has declared BoH's intent to crush Eu, so Eu may be the first one voted off the island.

	18-07-2005 20:50									#277
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Babylon as a nation needs to come up with 2 things.
1 ) What do we do now that TNA has fallen apart? This is everything to do with the issue of our short term survival. Peace, Techs, War - everything.

2) What is our long term approach to this game? I thought we had a strategy of peace and culture, but we got pulled into TNA and this war. Now what?

Maybe this should be in a thread of it's own. I'll start that. Before we do anything these need to be sorted out.

	19-07-2005 05:03									#278
	Got spare money?

Paddy's response in his public ramblings thread:

quote: Beta, Thank you for your email. The tech, I can see your point indeed. I hereby remove my threat of war at this time for mot sending it. Yet we supplied you with currency, which allowed you to make this step forward, so we feel some ownership of the tech, just as the Bards must.

Hmm - looks like we have at least bought ourselves some time. I think the trick was not sending it to either. Does this mean BOH has not figured out that Euphorica no longer has an iron source????

	19-07-2005 05:29									#279
	Get a bigger avatar today!

They may have and be falling for it anyway.

	19-07-2005 06:08									#280
	Put an end to popups!

sweet!

I hope this works...

	19-07-2005 06:10									#281
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I think that if we don't send BOH Fuedalism, they will attack. They need to agree in public not to attack for 20 turns then we send it.

	19-07-2005 16:44									#282
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

From Paddy:

(along with a pic of their Embassy install, which shows Euphorica close to completing a granary (a very dangerous move indeed ) and two catapults and a number of swords.

quote: Lord Beta I thank you for taking the time to contact the Horde on these matters. Have you come to an answer on how the Horde can help with compensation for your lost units? This is a matter that troubles me and I feel these losses persoanlly. Afterall I feel you would not have sent them without my pushing the matter so hard, and as we now feel the TNA was all a sham to get the Horde Armies out and leaving the Horde Homelands open Do you have any questions to the explaination that we provided for our attack on the Bards? I have attached the screenshot that I forgot to place with previous letter. It clearly shows the units, and that the Bards in their "100% at war" with "no units available" and had almost completed a granary. To the Horde this was mighty evidence. Adding to that the Bards then continued to not answer emails, all the while posting else where at Poly. Thank you for understanding our position on your unit Cain. These lads are a long way from home, do you have a plan on how to get them out of the volitile war zone they are suddenly in? Can we assist in this, ie a secure route etc. The tech, I can see your point indeed. I hereby remove my threat of war at this time for mot sending it. Yet we supplied you with currency, which allowed you to make this step forward, so we feel some ownership of the tech, just as the Bards must. Have the Horde upset you so much that you no longer wish to deal with us? Or is it me that your team does not like, as mentioned in those emails? Beta, you and I have many differing styles, and many different players on the teams we represent, that be a fact. So I do not expect that the people of your team to understand all that the Horde does, nor do we expect to understand all that Babylon does. Yet we have stood with you, and have not attacked you, nor do we see you attacking us. Can we move on? I see you as a people of peace, so can we have peace? I look forward to your reply Paddy of the Horde

	19-07-2005 18:25									#283
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I'm not even going to bother, at this time, with picking this apart.

Yeah, he wants Feud and he's likely moving forces towards us.

E_T

	19-07-2005 19:51									#284
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

We are not in a position to get in the Horde's face. They offer us peace at the moment. I even read that the Horde was offering compensation for the horse and admitting that they pulled us into this fight. Take it. Give them and others that would have peace with us Feudalism.

Use this email as evidence to the other teams to show that we were pushed into this war with DR.

I am NOT saying that I want to be friends with or trust the Horde. They are liars. They will come for us soon or later. But we can not afford to start a war with them now.

	19-07-2005 20:18									#285
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

would you feel better if we had two MPPs with A-M and Lost Boys? If we could accomplish that, then I would argue AGAINST giving Fued to BoH -- ever.

20 turns, perhaps more, would give us a good start to building our forces so we can stare down the Horde.

No MPP, I could be more easily persuaded to the logic of making a public deal with BoH trading Feud for peace. Its just that Feud gives SO MUCH to their war machine, I'm risk averse to passing it along...

	19-07-2005 21:02									#286
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

please see my post here.

	20-07-2005 00:28									#287
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

They will come for us sooner or later. Do you really think giving them Feudalism will change the timing of that? If anything, pushing them technologically forward will bring it sooner.

Play nice for as long as we can, yeah, but don't give them Feud.

	20-07-2005 00:53									#288
	Got spare money?

They won't see that as playing nice. BOH gave us time to think, not permission to not give them Feudalism.

And, yes I do think that giving them Feudalism will hold them off for now. Spread it around if everyone has it we are safer - MAD.

Let's get some troops or gold back. Let's get Cain home or let BOH when we move him. Keep the peace with BOH. We have no troops now. Pikeman or not they with destroy us if we don't send Feudalism. They will send the Feudalism Scientific Fighting Brigade to 'discover' it in our lands.

That and make sure they never find out that we built a granery.

	20-07-2005 03:53									#289
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I don't think Feudalism would change their minds one way or another. If they are coming soon, it only speeds their preparations. If they are not, then they are probably planning on other wars; I don't see us moving up the hitlist long-term, and we could be helping them in wars against potential allies - Euphorica, who might have a shot at survival, AM...

Feudalism is a weapon, not a superweapon. Nothing MAD about it.

	20-07-2005 07:39									#290
	Increase Your PM Length

Game's up. You gotta wonder.

quote: Mighty and Proud Babylon, From offers of peace and happiness, we hear only silence. You asked for explanations and we answered. We ask for explanations, we hear only silence. The silence of a cold night...the cold silence of the darkest of nights. We stood as brothers, shoulder to shoulder, and now the shoulder of our brother has grown cold and turned away from us. The arrogance of Babylon and her Lords! The paltry arrogance of those who have no muscle to back their words! While the Horde waits and listens, we hear the formings of new alliance...one we would consider joining. But this would not suit the Babylonian ideal, for Babylon would be thrown from this alliance. Booted to the curb like yesterday's garbage. Yea, we know your toils to form this alliance...for the Horde has ears that hear, yet always silence...silence...from you to us. We have heard the insults. We have heard the cry of Babylon to her neighbors. Woe unto thee oh Babylon! You have cast your lot with the betrayer! Prepare thyselves...build thy boats! For tremble with every breath...The Horde is coming! The Grim Reaper is preparing to walk among your nation. Your doom is upon you. The Blood Oath Horde

	20-07-2005 07:51									#291
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

So skro has succintly stated our public response. And I thought it interesting that 1889 waded into the discussion quickly - along with his e-mail correspondence.

So - do we want a public denouncement of their actions?

And I really do insist now that we pull our incesnsity settler back and use him for the iron. Spears and warriors - connect the iron - and do our upgrades. A few pikes in a border city will go a long way to stemming a tide of horsemen. And they cannot have that many ancianet cavalry as of yet.

And bowmen will be valuable for the defnsive fire - and the counterattack.

	20-07-2005 08:07									#292
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I said what publically?

So, 1889 betrayed us now, too?

Last edited by skrobism on 20-07-2005 at 08:15

	20-07-2005 08:12									#293
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Is someone leaking info about a potential alliance? 1889?

Is it the potential MPP deals? Krill?

or perhaps BoH is fishing.....

Looks like it's time to baton up the hatches -- full bore military production mode. I hope we survive.

	20-07-2005 08:16									#294
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

They must have heard that we spoke with Eu "The Betrayer".

	20-07-2005 08:21									#295
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Chatting with Paddy. Very surreal.

quote: Paddy says: hello Paddy says: not sure if you talking with me Beta says: Greetings. Beta says: Ah - t'is only a game. Paddy says: are you here for long? Paddy says: good Beta says: And was not unexpected given your teams MO to-date. Paddy says: hahaha Paddy says: well we not sure what to do with you strong silent types Beta says: Silence is a relative thing. Paddy says: no relative of mine Beta says: If we did not respond in a 12 hour period, we were demmed 'uncommunicative.' Paddy says: 12 - no no , 20 indeed Beta says: Um - OK even 24. Paddy says: hehehe Paddy says: diplomacy on the edge of a cliff Beta says: You would absolutely die in a slower paced demo game Paddy says: indeed Beta says: And most ARE slower than this. Paddy says: indeed Paddy says: but this one is fun Beta says: So - anything to talk about? Paddy says: so do you want to just surrender? Beta says: Um ... no. Paddy says: Paddy says: hehe Beta says: Do you? Paddy says: from the Horde: "Beta, we have not played turn yet. Are you going to send fued now, or are we to war?" Paddy says: they very pissed on your not sending Beta says: And we are very pissed on you walking out of an alliance on fabricated evidence - after sustaining little or no loss. Paddy says: we fabricated nothing Paddy says: it is all there Paddy says: what was fabricated Paddy says: ? Beta says: Oh - i have no doubt of it. Paddy says: huh? Beta says: My god - they are building a granary!!!! eek Paddy says: so why say we fabricated it Paddy says: huh? Beta says: My god - they kep two catapults and a handful of swords bak - after losing the bulk of their army paving the way for your attack. Paddy says: they told us they had nothing Beta says: And the might horde decides not to attack. Paddy says: they freaked out at us even asking Paddy says: they then got upset over asking for 2 tiles to be roaded Beta says: Um - you are not the easiest civ to deal with. Paddy says: then they tell us they quitting the war Paddy says: so be it Paddy says: either are you old chap Paddy says: but we persist Paddy says: we try to get peace and common goals with you strong and silent ones Beta says: silent ... That is a good one. Beta says: Well at least you are going to war with us over a tech - and not over a granary and two un-roaded tiles. Paddy says: yet we push and blunder as our way and you do what, defend the bards when they will not defend themselves there defence was to use an expired tech agreement Paddy says: we are at war with them for breaking their word Beta says: hahhahaha Paddy says: the granary and tiles be part of the evidence Beta says: Something about the pot and the kettle. Paddy says: they broke the alliance, we dealt with them Paddy says: would you have done differently? Beta says: Yes - we would have continued to talk until we got it resolved. Paddy says: would you then keep your word with the Horde on tech deals? Paddy says: they would not answer our questions on this Paddy says: they seemed to take your stance - strength in silence Paddy says: I wonder how well this stance will work for you both so early in the game

	20-07-2005 08:28									#296
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Beta So - do we want a public denouncement of their actions?

What public denouncement can we give? "Boo, basically unprovoked war is bad?" People already know that, and we have zero moral authority there. The only thing to use is Snoopy's info, which we can't confirm and most importantly do not want to breach confidence about.

So, no, I don't think public talk is not going to do much.

quote: Originally posted by Beta And I really do insist now that we pull our incesnsity settler back and use him for the iron. Spears and warriors - connect the iron - and do our upgrades. A few pikes in a border city will go a long way to stemming a tide of horsemen. And they cannot have that many ancianet cavalry as of yet.

I think we have a settler coming from PoA, don't we? Might even be able to get there sooner now.

quote: Originally posted by Beta And bowmen will be valuable for the defnsive fire - and the counterattack.

Yes. And even if our GA comes a little early, it will be non-despotic.

	20-07-2005 08:38									#297
	Tired of ads?

If this wasn't a game I'd think they were all insane, or North Korean. Graneries and slow replies are acts of war.

Now what did I say publically?

	20-07-2005 08:44									#298
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Paddy says: and with someone coming to us of your new alliance - who can you trust? Beta says: Yes indded. Who can you trust? Paddy says: we trust the Horde. Beta says: Great. I think you are the only ones who do. Paddy says: Good. Paddy says: We have taken time to answer your requirements, and offered you compensation for losses Paddy says: yet you now try to form a new alliance Paddy says: that is quite funny Paddy says: when will you attack Beta says: Yes - and we wre eworking on a response when the public declaration came. Paddy says: "oh we so scared" Beta says: Paddy says: sure you were Paddy says: hahaha Paddy says: mate, were you going to ever honour the tech deal? Paddy says: truthfully? Beta says: A direct quote from the BOH discussion thread in the babylon forum... Beta says: They offer us peace at the moment. I even read that the Horde was offering compensation for the horse and admitting that they pulled us into this fight. Take it. Give them and others that would have peace with us Feudalism. Paddy says: and you as leader agree to that? Paddy says: or is that just an idea? Beta says: You have to understand .. we are a true democracy. And it takes time to discuss things. Paddy says: you have had many turns Paddy says: and the save has been eld up a lot Beta says: E_T and I are AFK all day. Klo and the others have limited on-line time. Paddy says: so you have had time to honour something you agreed to. Beta says: It takes a day or more just to get the initial views in on something. Paddy says: and this is almost 2 weeks old Beta says: That is pretty standrad for a demo game. Paddy says: not when we were doing a turn in 36 hours Beta says: Hello - your ultimatum only came a day or so ago. Paddy says: mate... we have been on this for a while now Beta says: And the suggestion of compensation - I'm not sure to be honest. Paddy says: why Paddy says: you had sent NOTHING till I pushed Beta says: Paddy - listen - you are a good guy - and invaluable to Apolyton. Nothing personal will come of this. But you and your team are burning bridges pretty quickly. Paddy says: hahaha Paddy says: it is a game Beta says: But the game still has bridges. keep that in mind. Paddy says: and we see the game as being fast Snoop said in the game start - Lets Rumble Paddy says: so do you suggest we allow Bards to attack us Paddy says: we should lay down and take it Paddy says: not likely Beta says: I don't belive for an instant that they were planning to attack you. Paddy says: your Zulus have ravaged and all but destroyed my Celts, do I cry Beta says: Either that is fabricated roleplay, or your entire team is on drugs. Paddy says: we do Paddy says: we believe they were Paddy says: why were they sweet talking DR Beta says: They have no army left compared to you. Beta says: *Beta shakes his head.* Paddy says: and we would have had less than them after the DR ar Paddy says: war Paddy says: it be a game of chess, look several moves ahead Beta says: Well - it is history now - and the sandman calleth. Paddy says: and deal with the here and now Paddy says: so no tech deal then? Beta says: Yep - that is our approach as well. Beta says: hehehe Paddy says: so so much we could gain together.... Beta says: Um - I think you have declared war on us - haven't you? Paddy says: yet your teams silence says a big fat NO to us Paddy says: no Beta says: And the public announcement? Beta says: Posturing? Paddy says: we have taken it to the public threads to get it all open so their is no mistakes Paddy says: openess Beta says: ah - OK. Paddy says: no crying like the bards Beta says: Nope. Not us. Paddy says: you are organizing an alliance against us Paddy says: and you have again with held the tech Beta says: Nope , Not us. Paddy says: nope to which Beta says: Organizing an alliance. Paddy says: is that right Beta says: We may ebe forced to do so now - but it was not our first choice. Paddy says: I hope the emails never exist then Paddy says: for I heard you have been at this Paddy says: and here you deny it Paddy says: so anything predated here shows you out Paddy says: one more time, are you trying to form an alliance against us? Beta says: We have warned other civs - but I think they know which end is 'up' in this world well enough for themslevs. Paddy says: yes or no? Beta says: thenselves Beta says: themselves - there - finally got it. Paddy says: you? yes or no? Beta says: Are you attacking us - yes or no? Paddy says: strsight question Beta Beta says: straight question Paddy. Paddy says: you still have not the courage to answer Paddy says: answer then Paddy says: Paddy says: one more time, are you trying to form an alliance against us? Beta says: It is not a matter of courage. Paddy says: to answer a question/ Paddy says: amazing Beta says: I could say yes - and if that was the truth it would give you one more reason to attack us. Paddy says: we called you out openly, no reply I call you out here, you duck Paddy says: why? Beta says: I could say yes - and if it was not the truth - you would still use it even though it is not the truth. Paddy says: huh? Paddy says: I ask a straight qwuestion - yet again, and yet again no straight answer Beta says: I could say no, and if it is the truth, you will still scour every bit of correspondence you can lay you hands on to prove us liars. Paddy says: I came to this chat hopefull of peace Paddy says: I want peace Paddy says: I beg for peace Beta says: I could say no, and if it is a lie, well, what is one more on the pile that has been created. Paddy says: you duck and weave Paddy says: I offer you compensation Beta says: Yes I duck and weave. You are the ones who publically declared you were attacking us. Paddy says: You seem determined that we have war Paddy says: I came here for peace Paddy says: I am still here asking for peace Paddy says: do you Beta says: I have assumed that is the case. Or is the Horde not true to its word. Paddy says: The Horde called you out publicly as you were again ignoring us Paddy says: We have not broken our word to you. Beta says: We weren't ignoring you. We simply were not spending 24/7 on the game. Paddy says: If so, please show me so I can deal with where we have broken our word with Babylon. Paddy says: 24/7, hmmm well yes that be an issue unto it self - hehe Paddy says: Yet the Horde has the world against it Paddy says: we have a very very thin calling on peace with one nation Paddy says: and the largest army the world has ever seen Beta says: I would not know about that because if I di it would imply that we had been forming an alliance against you. Beta says: Paddy says: just where will those 3 main battle groups go next Beta says: It is still a young world. Paddy says: hahaha Paddy says: not for some shall we say

	20-07-2005 08:46									#299
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

They make no sense....everything is BS and they just invent reasons to attack everyone --- like the five other nations are AI players or something....

Idiots. How do we get a five nation alliance to break them?

	20-07-2005 08:49									#300
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Paddy says: and as to burning bridges, well if the people on the bridges do not get off soon, they may get burnt up to Paddy says: hint hint Paddy says: why do you want us as enemies? Beta says: hehe Paddy says: what have we done to you? Paddy says: struth, we keep ojn keepoing on with you Beta says: Well - I have to go. bed time. I will take the discussion back to the team - for waht it is worth. Paddy says: I have no reason to be here now Paddy says: may I say: think long and hard, or prepare to buy civ IV for your next demo game.... Beta says: To be honest - we had taken your declaration at face value. Beta says: hahaha Paddy says: hehe Paddy says: Beta, this is a game, and a team diplomatic game and we here to win. Beta says: Actually - I would like to think long and hard - but you don't give us an opportunity. Paddy says: will you still be here at the end for the great battles Beta says: (That was a good one.) Beta says: Plan on it. Paddy says: 10 mins is a long time, and running upsatirs at same time makes it hard Paddy says: Beta says: hehe Beta says: OK - good night my friend. Paddy says: well I think you need peace with us mopre than we do with you Paddy says: be well Beta says: Strength and honour! Paddy says: bye Paddy says: Peace and Happiness Paddy says: hope you turn msn on again sometime