25-07-2005 06:30									#211
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Bull. Stand in front of a cop with a gun (or a knife) and ignore his commands to drop it. See what happens in Toronto, New York, Paris, Madrid, Rome, Berlin, etc., etc...

You're in denial. Start living in the real world.

When most people are confronted with cops wielding guns, they will stop. But many ordinary people will immediately panic and become irrational. This is a scientific fact. How else to explain why a 35 year old mother leads the police on an extended cat chase because they tried to stop her after she ran a red light? This actually happens, and it happens a lot more often than real terror threats.

If you allow the cops to open fire, you are sanctioning the killing of lots of ordinary people who experience a perfectly normal panic reaction. As I said before, the police know this, even if you don't.

You are just 100% wrong, NYE. The facts agree with me and so do the police. Why else have car chases been all but banned. Same reason applies in this case.

	25-07-2005 06:32									#212
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Apparently, the cops have been told to do just what this Bobby did.

If the guy has a belt on, having him on the ground is no assurance that he won't be able to set it off. Hense the shots to the head.

That is my understanding of it, and I am hard pressed to see how that is a bad procedure when dealing with someone who is a suspect and ignores warnings.

	25-07-2005 06:33									#213
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither As I said earlier, I feel bad for this guy and his family. At the same time, I do not feel the police did anything wrong. It's a **** situation, and this guy got it all over him.

Of course they did something wrong. They killed an innocent person. This is probably not a failure of the individual officers involved, but poor policy on the part of the police as a whole. If we just said, "well, it's unfortunate, but these things happen", we are ignoring the possibility of improved policies making it less likely to happen in the future.

	25-07-2005 06:34									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You're in denial. Start living in the real world. When most people are confronted with cops wielding guns, they will stop. But many ordinary people will immediately panic and become irrational. This is a scientific fact. How else to explain why a 35 year old mother leads the police on an extended cat chase because they tried to stop her after she ran a red light? This actually happens, and it happens a lot more often than real terror threats. If you allow the cops to open fire, you are sanctioning the killing of lots of ordinary people who experience a perfectly normal panic reaction. As I said before, the police know this, even if you don't. You are just 100% wrong, NYE. The facts agree with me and so do the police. Why else have car chases been all but banned. Same reason applies in this case.

No, I am not wrong. It happens frequently (at least twice in the past year in my city).

Someone acts like a threat (knife or gun in hand) and fails to respond to police demands to put it down. Bang. Dead suspect. No charges on cops.

I suggest you investigate the facts of police shootings and then get back to us.

	25-07-2005 06:37									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Of course they did something wrong. They killed an innocent person. This is probably not a failure of the individual officers involved, but poor policy on the part of the police as a whole. If we just said, "well, it's unfortunate, but these things happen", we are ignoring the possibility of improved policies making it less likely to happen in the future.

I'm not sure how you get better policies for handeling suicide bombers (falsely suspected or real).

Two cops on top of him when he detonates... not so good a result.

The cases where I have seen photos of the IDF making an arrest, the suicide bomber did exactly what he or she was told.

	25-07-2005 06:38									#216
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Apparently, the cops have been told to do just what this Bobby did. If the guy has a belt on, having him on the ground is no assurance that he won't be able to set it off. Hense the shots to the head. That is my understanding of it, and I am hard pressed to see how that is a bad procedure when dealing with someone who is a suspect and ignores warnings.

It's a bad procedure because 99.5% of people you suspect of being terrorist bombers aren't. The evidence in this case was flimsy. The possibility that you are ignoring is that more innocent people might die from police gunfire if a proper policy is not instituted.

What if there's an Al Qaeda agent living in my building? I know most of the people in my building as casual acquaintances, and I often speak with them. I wear funny clothes, because the climate here is not naturally suited to me. When I first got here I had trouble understanding people because of the new accent and the different social conventions. I am just like this guy was.

So the police tail me to the subway and try to stop me getting on the train. Chances are that the stress will be high and I will enter a fight or flight state and probably run. By your logic it is OK for the police to shoot me in the head.

That's insane... you're basically advocating human sacrifice so that you can feel safer. That's a mark of an authoritarian personality BTW.

	25-07-2005 06:39									#217
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No, I am not wrong. It happens frequently (at least twice in the past year in my city). Someone acts like a threat (knife or gun in hand) and fails to respond to police demands to put it down. Bang. Dead suspect. No charges on cops. I suggest you investigate the facts of police shootings and then get back to us.

It also happens that a cop hesitates when someone is armed. Bang. Dead cop. That also happened here recently.

I prefer my cops alive, and my idiots dead, to the other way around. I'm sorry. I am being callous, but that's my preference.

	25-07-2005 06:41									#218
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No, I am not wrong. It happens frequently (at least twice in the past year in my city). Someone acts like a threat (knife or gun in hand) and fails to respond to police demands to put it down. Bang. Dead suspect. No charges on cops. I suggest you investigate the facts of police shootings and then get back to us.

Your city is ****ed. That's the problem. This hardly ever happens where I come from because the police don't carry guns. We're safer than you by far. And unlike Toronto, as an example, the cops don't get away with it on the very rare occasions they do kill someone.

You just seem to love the idea of the police shooting people. It's a typical right wing thing. You love the idea that we should all just knuckle under to authority, without questioning whether that always produces the best result.

That attitude makes people less safe.

	25-07-2005 06:43									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's a bad procedure because 99.5% of people you suspect of being terrorist bombers aren't. The evidence in this case was flimsy. The possibility that you are ignoring is that more innocent people might die from police gunfire if a proper policy is not instituted. What if there's an Al Qaeda agent living in my building? I know most of the people in my building as casual acquaintances, and I often speak with them. I wear funny clothes, because the climate here is not naturally suited to me. When I first got here I had trouble understanding people because of the new accent and the different social conventions. I am just like this guy was. So the police tail me to the subway and try to stop me getting on the train. Chances are that the stress will be high and I will enter a fight or flight state and probably run. By your logic it is OK for the police to shoot me in the head. That's insane... you're basically advocating human sacrifice so that you can feel safer. That's a mark of an authoritarian personality BTW.

More bull. I suggest you stick to Plato and leave psychology alone.

If you are behaving like a threat and you ignore warnings, the police very well may shoot you. What is so hard to understand in that simple equation?

	25-07-2005 06:45									#220
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It also happens that a cop hesitates when someone is armed. Bang. Dead cop. That also happened here recently. I prefer my cops alive, and my idiots dead, to the other way around. I'm sorry. I am being callous, but that's my preference.

You are being callous, and extremely stupid. People who get into these situations are mostly not idiots. Most of them aren't even criminals. Criminals tend to be more rational because they expect the stress. We are talking about normal people who go a bit crazy. Unlike you, I think that there are other options.

If your police weren't armed as a rule, criminals would find less need to carry guns, and situations would not escalate. It's a straightfoward Prisoner's Dilemma. Good policing attempts to prevent situations escalating. Having armed police frustrates that goal.

Why don't you come back when you actually know what you are talking about, instead of pretending this is the Wild West.

	25-07-2005 06:47									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You just seem to love the idea of the police shooting people. It's a typical right wing thing. You love the idea that we should all just knuckle under to authority, without questioning whether that always produces the best result. That attitude makes people less safe.

No, that attitude results in live cops.

Your attitude results in dead ones. It is typical of arm chair lefties with no clue that you would value the lives of criminals over the lives of cops.

Let me know which one is more workable next time the police try to recruit new members, OK?

	25-07-2005 06:49									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You are being callous, and extremely stupid. People who get into these situations are mostly not idiots. Most of them aren't even criminals. Criminals tend to be more rational because they expect the stress. We are talking about normal people who go a bit crazy. Unlike you, I think that there are other options. If your police weren't armed as a rule, criminals would find less need to carry guns, and situations would not escalate. It's a straightfoward Prisoner's Dilemma. Good policing attempts to prevent situations escalating. Having armed police frustrates that goal. Why don't you come back when you actually know what you are talking about, instead of pretending this is the Wild West.

You think gangs would do without guns if the cops didn't have them?



What a fool.

	25-07-2005 06:54									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Your city is ****ed. That's the problem. This hardly ever happens where I come from because the police don't carry guns. We're safer than you by far. And unlike Toronto, as an example, the cops don't get away with it on the very rare occasions they do kill someone.

You're safer due to unarmed cops, are you? What about this fella?

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/sep2000/nz-s07.shtml

quote: New Zealand police exonerated in the killing of young Maori By John Braddock 7 September 2000 Use this version to print A police inquiry into the killing of a young Maori has exonerated the police officer involved on the basis that he acted in self-defence. The report, made public nearly four months after the young man's slaying, has provoked demonstrations and anger from Maori protesters, who accuse the police of racism. It has also left the victim's family vowing to fight for an independent inquiry into the killing. The events leading up to Wallace's death began at about 3.30am on Sunday April 30, when, after coming home from a New Plymouth nightclub, he exploded into a rage and drove to the local fire station where he smashed several windows. The young man proceeded to a supermarket, smashing more windows, before heading to the police station where he broke more windows. He then drove wildly along the main street of the rural township of Waitara, until his car collided with a taxi. Leaving the car, he walked along the street, smashing shop windows with a baseball bat and golf club. What happened next was initially the subject of conflicting accounts. Wallace was confronted by two police officers, one of whom shot him at close range, firing at least four bullets into his chest. The cops claim he had broken the windscreen of a police vehicle, then advanced towards them, still wielding the baseball bat and threatening to kill them. According to the police version, Wallace was shot while continuing to approach them after a warning shot had been fired over his head. An ambulance arrived shortly after 4am and took Wallace to the main provincial hospital in New Plymouth, where he later died.

	25-07-2005 07:55									#224
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I am utterly amazed by the inability of many people on this site to figure out the difference between hindsight and what decisions have to be made in realtime.

The cops made the correct decision based on what they knew, all of this noise from mentally impotent moral crusaders is just grating. They'll keep harping that "they killed an innocent man", but they don't seem to comprehend what would've happened had the police not done what they did and the "innocent man" was just like the other 8 men -- taking out dozens of people with him.

Can you imagine these same people's fury if that happened? "They should have shot him as soon as he left the building if they thought he was a terrorist!"

	25-07-2005 08:00									#225
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Asher, they should have arrested him as soon as he left the building if they thought he had a bomb.

	25-07-2005 08:03									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Asher, they should have arrested him as soon as he left the building if they thought he had a bomb.

The building was under surveillance by undercover cops...don't you think that would blow their cover?

They were shadowing him until he began to enter the station, at which point they did try to arrest him...but he bolted into the densely populated train instead.

	25-07-2005 08:04									#227
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Shooting him five times certainly blew their cover. There's NOTHING suspicious about using the tube or a bus.

	25-07-2005 08:06									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Shooting him five times certainly blew their cover. There's NOTHING suspicious about using the tube or a bus.

They thought at that point he was going to bomb it, just like 4 people tried not 24 hours earlier...

I think it's extremely suspicious for somebody with a puffy jacket leaving a building under surveillance for terrorist activity, who bolted when cops tried to stop him, to then run into the station into a crowded train. To the people at the scene, it sure as hell looked like he was trying to make it on the train to blow it up.

	25-07-2005 08:20									#229
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If he looks like he's got a bomb, you stop him before he gets into the tube. Allowing him into the underground only to start shouting and waving guns is unprofessional - can you agree to that?

http://electroniciraq.net/news/2074.shtml

quote: The police, in any country at any time, whatever strain they must be under, cannot simply be given a blank check. In London, this is the same police force that was famously called "institutionally racist" by the Macpherson Inquiry carried out after the force's incompetence and negligence meant that the perpetrators of the racially-motivated murder of black British teenager Stephen Lawrence got off scot-free. The 1999 report which found widespread racism at every level of the police, was seen as a turning point in inter-ethnic relations in Britain. While acknowledging some progress, one of the inquiry's advisors, Dr. Richard Stone said in 2004, "In some areas things have got a lot worse, random stops of young black men are now twice as likely as they were five years ago. Today a black man is eight times more likely to be stopped and searched by the police, this is definitely not progress." This is the same police force that shot Jean Charles de Menezes.

	25-07-2005 08:55									#230
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all this shows is why police should not be armed

	25-07-2005 09:34									#231
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bullocks

police should always have assault rifles and grenade launchers

	25-07-2005 12:27									#232
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police with guns = more idiots on the streets with guns

	25-07-2005 13:08									#233
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bullocks

All police forces need M1 Abrams tank along with rocket launhcers

	25-07-2005 13:26									#234
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and then send em to Iraq

	25-07-2005 13:32									#235
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither If the guy has a belt on, having him on the ground is no assurance that he won't be able to set it off. Hense the shots to the head.

at how many shots on the head would you be certain they guy was ded?

at how many shots would you take a quick look to see if he had any bombs on him?

	25-07-2005 13:37									#236
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shots to the head aren't going to be much good if the trigger for bomb is a pressure release mechanism.

As I was taught in another life - never pull a loose wire, never cut a taut one. A pressure trigger, say hand held, is like a taut wire, shooting the bomber in the head is like cutting the wire.

	25-07-2005 13:49									#237
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what were you on this other life horsie?

	25-07-2005 14:47									#238
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd I don't know about you, but personally, I would like the police and counter-terror officers to be acting on a basis of investigation rather than presumption.

Yes, it would be so easy to enquire of a potential suicide bomber just what his or her intentions were in a crowded underground station or packed morning rush hour train or bus.

In fact, I can't understand why no one did that with the four who have already killed themselves and over fifty innocent commuters- or say, the ones who are busily killing men, women and children in Iraq.

I'm sure a polite request to check the body belt full of Semtex or grenades would be met with meek compliance.

	25-07-2005 15:27									#239
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If they were plain-clothes guys , couldn't the poor man have thought that they were just out to mug him ?

	25-07-2005 15:40									#240
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm If they were plain-clothes guys , couldn't the poor man have thought that they were just out to mug him ?

It depends whether or not they identified themselves- muggers are unlikely to ask you to halt by identifying themselves as armed police.....