05-09-2005 02:10									#301
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There was no storm surge in NOLA, MOBIUS. It was the rain that did it. Nonetheless, NOLA was hit with the force of a Cat 2 hurricane (Biloxi got hit with a Cat 3, but with massive storm surge). The levees are supposed to be able to handle that.

	05-09-2005 02:13									#302
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Well you spell d y k e in uk english iirc.

	05-09-2005 02:14									#303
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quote: NEW ORLEANS -- Police shot eight people carrying guns on a New Orleans bridge Sunday, killing five or six of them, a deputy chief said. Deputy Police Chief W.J. Riley said the shootings took place on the Danziger Bridge, which connects Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi River. He said he had no other details.

hmmm....

	05-09-2005 02:41									#304
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Just a thought, why do we need a bridge to connect two bodies of water?

	05-09-2005 02:49									#305
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so does Dubya strum a mean guitar the way Nero plucked a mean fiddle? has that comparison been made yet?

	05-09-2005 02:53									#306
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Damn, AH. Good observation.

	05-09-2005 02:54									#307
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quote: Originally posted by DanS See page 4.

Page FOUR?

	05-09-2005 03:18									#308
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My God, N. O. is a lake and conservatives can do nothing else but complain how us lefties are somehow using it for political gain by holding people accountable for negligence while Shrub stops relief efforts so he can go in for a photo op. Talk about tasteless.

	05-09-2005 03:20									#309
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NOLA isn't a lake. It's part of Lake Ponchetrain.

	05-09-2005 03:22									#310
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quote: Originally posted by Odin My God, N. O. is a lake and conservatives can do nothing else but complain how us lefties are somehow using it for political gain by holding people accountable for negligence while Shrub stops relief efforts so he can go in for a photo op. Talk about tasteless.

and can you imagine the outcry from the right if Clinton had ****ed up like this?



BURN HIM!!!!!

	05-09-2005 03:36									#311
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quote: Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi One rather disturbing trend I've noticed is that it seems that people who get on CNN/other news shows are the ones who have their family rescued. Obviously not exclusively, but there have been several cases where people show up on CNN saying that their family is trapped at this place or that, have been for days, they've been telling every official they can find to send help, then miraculously within the next 24 hours a Coast Guard chopper appears overhead and people are evacuated. It just happened again...last night a woman said her family was trapped in a certain Asian Catholic church, and now there's video of people being taken out of that same church (though the announcers didn't mention it was the same one.) That being said, the one really amazing performance I've seen in all of this is from the Coast Guard. They've consistently been doing amazing work, and have been since the moment they could get their choppers back in the air.

The Coast Guard. Seahawk rescue team.

And yes, you are right, anyone that gets media attention will get rescued. I even saw someone on A Current Affair that this happened to.

	05-09-2005 03:42									#312
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Page FOUR?

Sure. Page 4.

	05-09-2005 03:45									#313
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse so does Dubya strum a mean guitar the way Nero plucked a mean fiddle? has that comparison been made yet?

	05-09-2005 06:16									#314
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There was no storm surge in NOLA, MOBIUS. It was the rain that did it. Nonetheless, NOLA was hit with the force of a Cat 2 hurricane (Biloxi got hit with a Cat 3, but with massive storm surge). The levees are supposed to be able to handle that.

Hmm. Everything I've read indicates that New Orleans was struck by a Category 4 hurricane that had previously been a Category 5 storm (it was weakened a bit by a puff of dry air coming in from the Upper Midwest). What "saved" NOLA was the fact that the storm's more-powerful east side missed the city.

WRT the levees, they were designed to withstand up to a Category 3 storm, but even then the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers had concerns.

Gatekeeper

	05-09-2005 06:56									#315
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I'm jumping in late, but just a couple of items.

First, levies. The damage was all on the Lake Ponchetrain side. It had nothing to do with the Mississippi River. While the storm surge itself did not strike the levies, it did fill Lake Ponchetrain with water, which topped the levies, eroding supports on the other side, and causing them to collapse.

Second, Corps of Engineers. The problem IS NOT that they don't have enough money. The problem IS that they don't spend it appropriately.
From a STATEMENT before the Environmental and Public Works Subcommittee of the US Senate, June 18, 2002:

quote: During the past few years, increased scrutiny of U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (Corps) projects has revealed a disturbing pattern of flawed economic and environmental analyses, biased and insupportable decision-making, and failed mitigation. These problems have been identified by the Army Inspector General, the National Academy of Sciences, the General Accounting Office, the Environmental Protection Agency, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, the media, environmental and taxpayer organizations, and citizen activists. .... Study after study has shown that the Corps’ economic and environmental analyses cannot be trusted. Indeed, the Army’s own Inspector General found that many Corps employees have no confidence in the integrity of the Corps’ planning process. Unfortunately, the impacts of flawed analyses go far beyond issues of trust and integrity. All too often, they are used to justify the construction of projects that unnecessarily harm the environment, and that divert tax dollars away from serving the real needs of the nation.

Several pages of examples follow this quote.

SIMILARLY from just last year:

quote: Across the nation, hundreds of water projects are being planned and constructed by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Many of these projects pose serious harm to wildlife, sensitive natural resources, and our quality of life, often at significant and unnecessary taxpayer expense. These projects continue despite credible and mounting evidence of numerous flaws in project designs and economic justification, and a growing concern for the price they will extract. The fact that damaging and wasteful proposals continue to receive federal funds and are proceeding is a dramatic testament to the need to overhaul the Corps of Engineers. The agency that has changed the course of America's mightiest rivers must now itself change. The Corps must cease to be a tool for lawmakers to bring home pork-barrel projects for special interests, and instead become an agency that works towards a more environmentally and economically sustainable America.

edit: formatting

	05-09-2005 07:27									#316
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For me, the most interesting question in this whole debacle is: Why wasn't the evacuation complete? Why weren't the people forced to evacuate, and why wasn't transportation provided?

Why was there no serious evacuation plan in this city, despite the fact that it was considered as one of the US cities most likely to be hit by a catastrophe?

To say "It's Bush fault" doesn't cut it IMO. Even though Bush was ****ing pathetic in this debacle, he's not personally responsible for setting it up in the first place. All the things we're discussing now (lack of relief, lack of order, people dying by the thousands because they're stranded there) would be irrelevant if there had been actual caution before Katrina hit. If steps had been taken to effectively evacuate the city, we would be talking about financial damage today, not about thousands of deaths.

	05-09-2005 07:32									#317
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor For me, the most interesting question in this whole debacle is: Why wasn't the evacuation complete? Why weren't the people forced to evacuate, and why wasn't transportation provided?

There was buses to drive people to the superdome, so there was transportation available, though I don't know if it would have been able to drive all those people to another city.

Also, apparently, the NO plan, required 72 hours to implement, and IIUC, they only had about 48 hours warning.

quote: To say "It's Bush fault" doesn't cut it IMO.

There's more than enough blame to go at all levels of government.

	05-09-2005 07:56									#318
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith I'm jumping in late, but just a couple of items. First, levies. The damage was all on the Lake Ponchetrain side. It had nothing to do with the Mississippi River. While the storm surge itself did not strike the levies, it did fill Lake Ponchetrain with water, which topped the levies, eroding supports on the other side, and causing them to collapse. Second, Corps of Engineers. The problem IS NOT that they don't have enough money. The problem IS that they don't spend it appropriately. From a STATEMENT before the Environmental and Public Works Subcommittee of the US Senate, June 18, 2002: Several pages of examples follow this quote. SIMILARLY from just last year: edit: formatting

The first one is from an individual environmental group's submission to the Senate committee. There may be a lot of truth to what they're saying, which is basically that the ACE does a lot of environmental damage with some of their projects, but that doesn't mean that Bush's cuts and the administration's misdirection aren't very much to blame here. The second link is to a taxpayer's group, which, if they're anything like the ones up here, don't really believe in government spending on anything at all.

Keep in mind that Bush is responsible for the overall direction of the US government. If he responded to these criticisms of the ACE by simply cutting their budget, instead of ensuring that they had the correct priorities, then he has failed in his responsibilities.

	05-09-2005 08:06									#319
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh The first one is from an individual environmental group's submission to the Senate committee. There may be a lot of truth to what they're saying, which is basically that the ACE does a lot of environmental damage with some of their projects, but that doesn't mean that Bush's cuts and the administration's misdirection aren't very much to blame here. The second link is to a taxpayer's group, which, if they're anything like the ones up here, don't really believe in government spending on anything at all.

The first link contains a whole series of unbiased sources, such as the General Accounting Office and the Army Inspector General's Office.

quote: Originally posted by techumseh Keep in mind that Bush is responsible for the overall direction of the US government. If he responded to these criticisms of the ACE by simply cutting their budget, instead of ensuring that they had the correct priorities, then he has failed in his responsibilities.

The same could be said of every president for the last 40 years. Much as I dislike George W. Bush, why single out him?

	05-09-2005 08:27									#320
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith The first link contains a whole series of unbiased sources, such as the General Accounting Office and the Army Inspector General's Office. The same could be said of every president for the last 40 years. Much as I dislike George W. Bush, why single out him?

Because of the cuts to the ACE budget in the last couple of years. And the huge cuts to FEMA, it's over-focus on the terrorist threat and the appointment of a horse guy as it's director. And the misdirection of the National Guard and it's equipment into Iraq. And sitting out on his Texas ranch doing little until the full scope of the disaster was obvious to everyone. And delaying and/or refusing approval for assistance from other countries. And disrupting rescue and recovery operations in order to stage photo ops. And for being the smirking, lying, creepy little warmonger that he is.

	05-09-2005 08:42									#321
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Because of the cuts to the ACE budget in the last couple of years.

According to THIS article, the cuts have little if anything to do with the levies that failed, thereby supporting my argument that the money is being mis-spent.

quote: Unfunded projects include widening drainage canals, flood- proofing bridges and building pumping stations in Orleans and Jefferson parishes. The Corps also wants to build levees in unprotected areas on the West Bank.

The rest of your response has nothing to do with the Corps of Engineers.

	05-09-2005 08:58									#322
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Wasn't the previous head of the Corps of Engineers (the one who's giving all of the interviews) fired because he constantly went behind the administration's back to congress to undercut Bush, his boss, and kept pushing for huge increases in the Corps budget for pork (like in the 50% increase range)?

Yeh, I'm starting to remember that guy...

Last edited by DanS on 05-09-2005 at 09:03

	05-09-2005 09:06									#323
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What I'm interested in is the fact that FEMA under Brown was said to do a good job in 2004 with the hurricanes in Florida. What changed between then and now? Could it be that New Orleans really doesn't get hit with too many hurricanes and therefore the locals weren't prepared? The Florida officials deal with hurricanes hitting someplace in the state every year.

	05-09-2005 09:08									#324
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From all the news coverage that I have seen about this dissaster and the comments made by DHS and FEMA and coverage of the actions of State and local governmnet, a lot of this came about because of poor planing and forsight. The Sectary of DHS was stated a news conference that they never expected that a Hurricane and Flood to hit New Orleans at the same time. This is just stupid to me. Anyone with a brain could figure out that if a massive hurricane hit New Orleans that the city would get flooded. The Sectary of DHS seems like a guy who cannot lead any kind of effective relief effort and know more about paper pushing then anything else. Also the state and local govenment did have enough time to evacuate the city, at least I think so, but many were hoping the hurricane would hit else where instead of planing for the worst case and planing accordingly.

After the Hurricane hit, no one was perpared for the flood and there was no one heading the relief effort in New Orleans and getting everyone on the same page untill like 5 days after the flood and that is when things started to happen and they finnaly evacuated the city. To me this just comes down to poor planing and people hoping for the best instead of planing for the worst.

	05-09-2005 10:41									#325
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quote: Originally posted by DanS What I'm interested in is the fact that FEMA under Brown was said to do a good job in 2004 with the hurricanes in Florida. What changed between then and now?

It's not an election year, and it's not a key state?

	05-09-2005 14:12									#326
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Much as I dislike George W. Bush, why single out him?

Something about him being elected President recently ?

It's hard I know to blame Carter for this, but I'm sure conservatives will find a way.

quote: We are led, by events and common sense, to one conclusion: the survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands. America's vital interests and our deepest beliefs are now one. From the day of our Founding, we have proclaimed that every man and woman on this earth has rights, and dignity, and matchless value, because they bear the image of the Maker of Heaven and earth. Now it is the urgent requirement of our nation's security, and the calling of our time. Freedom, by its nature, must be chosen, and defended by citizens, and sustained by the rule of law and the protection of minorities. And when the soul of a nation finally speaks, the institutions that arise may reflect customs and traditions very different from our own. America will not impose our own style of government on the unwilling. Our goal instead is to help others find their own voice, attain their own freedom, and make their own way. The great objective of ending tyranny is the concentrated work of generations. The difficulty of the task is no excuse for avoiding it. America's influence is not unlimited, but fortunately for the oppressed, America's influence is considerable, and we will use it confidently in freedom's cause. My most solemn duty is to protect this nation and its people against further attacks. America will not pretend .... that any human being aspires to live at the mercy of bullies. America's belief in human dignity will guide our policies... Americans, of all people, should never be surprised by the power of our ideals. To serve your people you must learn to trust them. By our efforts, we have lit a fire as well... I ask our youngest citizens to believe the evidence of your eyes. You have seen that life is fragile... In America's ideal of freedom, citizens find the dignity and security of economic independence, instead of laboring on the edge of subsistence. And now we will extend this vision by reforming great institutions to serve the needs of our time. To give every American a stake in the promise and future of our country, we will bring the highest standards to our schools, and build an ownership society. We will widen the ownership of homes and businesses, retirement savings and health insurance - preparing our people for the challenges of life in a free society. By making every citizen an agent of his or her own destiny, we will give our fellow Americans greater freedom from want and fear, and make our society more prosperous and just and equal. In America's ideal of freedom, the public interest depends on private character - on integrity, and tolerance toward others, and the rule of conscience in our own lives. Our nation relies on men and women who look after a neighbor and surround the lost with love. Americans, at our best, value the life we see in one another, and must always remember that even the unwanted have worth. And our country must abandon all the habits of racism, because we cannot carry the message of freedom and the baggage of bigotry at the same time.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/rele...20050120-1.html


So he said all those noble things, but did he mean he'd actually do anything about bringing them to pass ?

Too late for Vera.

quote: A makeshift tomb at a New Orleans street corner conceals a body that had been lying on the sidewalk for days in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

	05-09-2005 16:22									#327
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker At the very least, at least the Mayor got most of his people out of the city, this could have been much worse, as sad as it is now.

He did it smart by making sure that most of the tax paying citizens escaped. Those who didn't contribute as much were left to their fate.

	05-09-2005 16:23									#328
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It is blaming the vicitim.

Sometimes "the victim" ( in this case the city of NO and the state of LA) deserves some blame.

	05-09-2005 16:27									#329
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS The search is over folks - I think we have found the new Ned!

If only your capabilities and usefulness as a poster were a tenth of his.

	05-09-2005 16:44									#330
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Second, Corps of Engineers. The problem IS NOT that they don't have enough money. The problem IS that they don't spend it appropriately. From a STATEMENT before the Environmental and Public Works Subcommittee of the US Senate, June 18, 2002: Several pages of examples follow this quote. SIMILARLY from just last year: edit: formatting

Adam Smith, that's a nice reference, but it doesn't mention anything specific about the situation in New Orleans. It's just an overall generalization.