04-10-2002 14:26									#271
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Do you ever wish you had not mentioned something?

Too late. Took you a little while to realise, too.

quote: Ravagon that is a fair point. But please understand the ‘Brits’ have gone to great pains to make it clear the ABs are not being excluded. The initial proposal was based on the fact, as Finbar has already pointed out I think, that the Boks and Wallabies already had plans to be up here at that time in 2004 and the ABs didn’t. Nothing more sinister than that.

All true. But it still hasn't been explained why the ABs appear to have been excluded beyond 2004. Of course, the RFU has said the SA/Aus/England proposal under consideration is only one of many - meaning, by implication, that there may be other proposals that do include the ABs. Except a proposal that actually includes the ABs hasn't surfaced. I suspect it doesn't exist.

The question is - why? Of course, the rabid (literally) Kiwis on that website accuse John O'Neill of trying to destroy the ABs. Which is ridiculous. The Boks are just as involved in this new proposal - presumably the Boks are out to destroy the ABs too? I would dearly love to know whether the ABs were approached at any point about the proposal. Given that reference on the NZRFU website - that the ABs prefer fewer games of higher quality - I have a feeling they might have been approached and declined.

quote: Tigers are at home to the old enemy Bath tomorrow, and I am hoping we show Gloucester exactly how to put them away (or my weekend will be a sad one again).

I've just had a thought! When you get your pint glass with the prescription lens in the bottom for drinking while watching television rugby, you could have a prescription tinted lens added and take the television out into the back yard.

	04-10-2002 15:49									#272
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quote: having to carry Havak's empties out to the recycling bin

How about we add you dictionary and thesaurus?

quote: Look forward? Here, borrow my binoculars

I have to pair I took down under last year is I could look for Wallabies who might be onside.

quote: This might be a naive question, but who actually runs rugby over there?

It’s not naïve at all. It’s the crux of our problems. The RFU say they do, the clubs think differently. Never the twain shall meet.

In essence the RFU holds the money and the clubs hold the Aces (the players). The Premiership is therefore overseen by an uneasy alliance of the ERP (essentially a cabal of the chairmen of the top teams) and the RFU (a cabal of the proverbial ‘old farts’) if my recollection is up to date.

quote: But if anyone has a nose for a dollar it's Mr O'Neill.

Of that I have no doubt at all.

quote: Took you a little while to realise, too

Always does. Front row, remember?

quote: it still hasn't been explained why the ABs appear to have been excluded beyond 2004

My guess is money. Asking for too big a slice of the pie behind the scenes perhaps?

quote: I have a feeling they might have been approached and declined.

And if that is the case I am sure all those rabid Kiwis will apologise to O’Neil and the entire English nation (amazing how they hate him individually but us as a collective?)

quote: I've just had a thought! When you get your pint glass with the prescription lens in the bottom for drinking while watching television rugby, you could have a prescription tinted lens added and take the television out into the back yard.

I like the way you think.

Glaws take on Sarrries at home this weekend. That’s a no brainer now – Glaws by 20 odd points. I honestly expect a similar margin for us over Bath – they have struggled against us for several years now.

	04-10-2002 16:32									#273
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quote: Originally posted by Havak It’s not naïve at all. It’s the crux of our problems. The RFU say they do, the clubs think differently. Never the twain shall meet.

Replace RFU by FFR (French Rugby Federation) and you have a picture of what is going on in France.

quote: In essence the RFU holds the money and the clubs hold the Aces (the players). The Premiership is therefore overseen by an uneasy alliance of the ERP (essentially a cabal of the chairmen of the top teams) and the RFU (a cabal of the proverbial ‘old farts’) if my recollection is up to date.

This is not exactly the same situation in France, the FFR is managing the French team (which will beat the SH teams in a few weeks ) and the amateur competitions. The FFR is thus in charge of the national Rugby policy.

The League (nothing to do with this sport played with thirteen players) manages the first and second professional divisions called Pro D1 and Pro D2. The representatives of the League are the president of the member clubs, there is a strong opposition between the "small" clubs and the so-called 'big" clubs. The problem is the "small" clubs are the majority and their presidents always block the decisions that could lead to a more elitist competition as this is seen as a threat.

Your description of the RFU managers is perfectly adapted to the FFR. The FFR and the League are also opposed as each institution is trying to earn more power to the expense of the other.

This explains why France is always taking quickly the best decision each time the interest of the French Rugby is concerned.



Finbar, thank you for the history of Bon Scott I didn't knew at all its background before AC/DC, really interesting. About Havak and its So... So... Soc (no, I can't) heritage you should admit he is the spearhead of a new evolution in his family and annoy him with this every two posts only.

To his benefit, he is a strong supporter of one ot the most prestigious European club which is one of the few still giving some value to tradition.

About Ravagon, is infringement of the Apolyton Rugby thread rules is very serious, I think a red card is the least we can do as he is even encouraging a So... So... Soc... (sorry, I can't write it) team.

	04-10-2002 17:21									#274
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin The League (nothing to do with this sport played with thirteen players) manages the first and second professional divisions called Pro D1 and Pro D2. The representatives of the League are the president of the member clubs, there is a strong opposition between the "small" clubs and the so-called 'big" clubs. The problem is the "small" clubs are the majority and their presidents always block the decisions that could lead to a more elitist competition as this is seen as a threat.

Add to this a solid measure of self-serving, nepotism, and you have SA Rugby administration in a nutshell.

The effect of this amazing system of administration (do I get carded for sarcasm ) is most evident in the number of empty seats at matches – and quite possibly – the SA national side’s rather lacklustre displays lately.

Praise be, it hasn’t gone unnoticed. A commission was convened (in SA, sport IS politics ), and the system got sent to the sin bin. Like a recovering alcoholic, things are still shaky - but at least there’s recovery.

Guess the moral is – things can only get better… After all, we could all be Liverpool fans!

	04-10-2002 17:21									#275
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It’s interesting how close the situations in France and England are.

quote: you should admit he is the spearhead of a new evolution in his family and annoy him with this every two posts only

yes the reduced frequency would be very pleasant.

quote: To his benefit, he is a strong supporter of one ot the most prestigious European club which is one of the few still giving some value to tradition.

Merci mon ami. Of course the same is true about yourself and your team.

I can almost see Finbar writing “Oh perlease!” at this but it is true enough – Tigers hold to the old values much more closely than re-invented teams like Gloucester, Saracens, Sale et al.

But then the SH lads are ‘progressives’ are they not, tradition is not as fixed in their psyche as it is with the NH faithful.

	04-10-2002 18:26									#276
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quote: Originally posted by Havak How about we add you dictionary and thesaurus?

What are they doing at your place with your empties?

quote: I have to pair I took down under last year is I could look for Wallabies who might be onside.

Oh I remember. That would be the pair you needed to see the game from your seats located somewhere adjacent to a completely different ground altogether?

quote: It’s not naïve at all.

for the umlaut. I couldn't be bothered. It's actually optional whether it's avec umlaut or sans umlaut or even spelled sans umlaut but with a second "e". Fascinating word.

quote: In essence the RFU holds the money and the clubs hold the Aces (the players). The Premiership is therefore overseen by an uneasy alliance of the ERP (essentially a cabal of the chairmen of the top teams) and the RFU (a cabal of the proverbial ‘old farts’) if my recollection is up to date.

One advantage, I suppose, of us having a less developed club system. Our club officials are all honorary chaps who help make the afternoon tea. I suppose our equivalents of your club wallies would be the State organisations - all two of them, NSW and Queensland - whose relationship with the ARU are, on the whole, a lot better than they are with each other.

quote: My guess is money. Asking for too big a slice of the pie behind the scenes perhaps?

Possibly. I'd really like to know. I mean, I'd find it hard to believe that all these proposals could have been hatched without the Kiwis knowing. OTOH, the NZRFU has been, um, less than up to scratch of late.

quote: (amazing how they hate him individually but us as a collective?)

Au contraire!

quote: Glaws take on Sarrries at home this weekend. That’s a no brainer now – Glaws by 20 odd points. I honestly expect a similar margin for us over Bath – they have struggled against us for several years now.

I have long since learned not to count chickens.

	04-10-2002 18:34									#277
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin About Havak and its So... So... Soc (no, I can't) heritage you should admit he is the spearhead of a new evolution in his family and annoy him with this every two posts only.

We have a saying, Tamerlin. You probably have something similar in French. "Never give a sucker an even break!"

quote: To his benefit, he is a strong supporter of one ot the most prestigious European club which is one of the few still giving some value to tradition.

Yes, and I've re-thought the possibility that I might be the millstone around your club's neck. I'm not. It's him. Cut him loose before it's too late.

quote: About Ravagon, is infringement of the Apolyton Rugby thread rules is very serious, I think a red card is the least we can do as he is even encouraging a So... So... Soc... (sorry, I can't write it) team.

He's a Kiwi, Tamerlin. That could be punishment enough.

	04-10-2002 19:31									#278
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Fantastic post Tamerlin!

Im a bit confused about this bit though:

quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Caligastia is, I can be wrong, the individual which seems the more prone to sacrifice tradition but he is living in the United States and might have been somehow spoiled.

and Finbar seems to agree:

quote: Originally posted by Finbar Couldn't agree more. Along with the soccer genes lurking within Havak's body, Caligastia's worshiping at the altar of the Almighty Greenback is the greatest threat to the purity of these threads. I'm just waiting for him to have George Witless Bush add this thread to the Axis of Evil.

Im not offended or anything, just curious to find out how I gave this impression.

Have been assimilated without even noticing...?

	04-10-2002 19:35									#279
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quote: Originally posted by finbar The real bottom line is that S12 helps everyone's rugby because it is, by definition, a stronger comp than the respective domestic club comps (one or two of the easy-beat S12 teams aside, maybe). Exposing players to a higher standard of rugby will lift players' standards (providing the players are equipped to lift their standards).

I agree, but I think the super 12 helps Australia more than New Zealand. New Zealand already has the NPC, but Australia doesnt really have anything equivilent to that.

	04-10-2002 19:41									#280
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Not by any chance falling into the trap of dismissing England are you Finbar and Caligastia? You are way too intelligent for that. With the weakened squads the tri-nations are bringing we are perfectly capable of winning all three games at HQ.

They are capable, yes, but is it possible? No.

I would never write off England, but I will be suprised if they win all their games. I would also be suprised if they lost all of them. They will beat Australia once at least.

	04-10-2002 20:03									#281
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quote: What are they doing at your place with your empties?

At my local once my glass is empty it gets filled. It’s a well rehearsed drill.

quote: Oh I remember. That would be the pair you needed to see the game from your seats located somewhere adjacent to a completely different ground altogether?

That’s right

I thought you might like the umlaut.

quote: OTOH, the NZRFU has been, um, less than up to scratch of late.

For the diplomacy there.

quote: I have long since learned not to count chickens.

It’s very sensible not to do so. I wish I had that level of sense

Kingsholm is quite a ground. Saracens are not a team I think can overcome that crowd advantage the shed gives Glaws. Lets see if I’m right.

quote: "Never give a sucker an even break!"

I always though it was “Never give a Pom an even break”?

quote: I'm not. It's him. Cut him loose before it's too late.

Unfair m’lud! I’ve been a fan of theirs for a long time and most of that time they were very, very good. Recently they have struggled. Recently you have lent them your support. Coincidence? I do not think so!

quote: They are capable, yes, but is it possible? No.

Oh it’s possible. I think I’ve told you who was the last team to beat us at HQ and when it was. Can you remember? We are thirsting to set that one right this time.

Loved the line about Australia of course.

Seriously it is now a very tough proposition to play England at Twickers. As oft noted the downside is we need to take success ‘on the road’.

I can’t tell you how much I am looking forward to next months games. All three are mouth watering prospects (we normally get one sacrificial lamb between two tough teams – not this year!).

	04-10-2002 20:08									#282
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My mouth is watering also. Better wash it down with some beer!

	04-10-2002 20:49									#283
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Fantastic post Tamerlin!

Thanks !

quote: Have been assimilated without even noticing...?

Among all of us it seems you are one of the less reluctant to accept new ideas even if it contradicts a long tradition. Although another one would say you are more open minded than us all (of course this is absolutely wrong ) I have slightly ( ) exagerated this trait for the fun of it in my post...

Moreover, you are a citizen of New Zealand lost in the USA which is a country where many traditions have no weight as soon as money and profit rear their ugly head. It was very easy to link those two facts together and imagine you could have been somehow corrupted...

Actually, I'am kidding...

	04-10-2002 20:54									#284
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No worries Tamerlin, I see the connection now.

Im still curious about the tradition thing though. Which long-standing traditions have I eagerly discarded lately?

	04-10-2002 22:35									#285
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I get to watch Auckland v Otago live at 10pm tonight!


GO AUCKLAND!

	04-10-2002 22:36									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia No worries Tamerlin, I see the connection now. Im still curious about the tradition thing though. Which long-standing traditions have I eagerly discarded lately?

No time to answer adequately at this moment as I'am leaving home for a Role Playing Game with some friends but I will think about it...

	05-10-2002 05:32									#287
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Im not offended or anything, just curious to find out how I gave this impression.

Careful, Cal, you're in danger of earning a Red Card for taking something posted in this thread remotely seriously.

	05-10-2002 05:44									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I agree, but I think the super 12 helps Australia more than New Zealand. New Zealand already has the NPC, but Australia doesnt really have anything equivilent to that.

I wouldn't disagree that it helps us more. No doubt. My point was, though, that any domestic comp amounts to playing amongst yourselves, with, always, some teams much stronger than others. I honestly think there's a limit to the usefulness of a club comp in taking players to higher levels.

	05-10-2002 06:11									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I always though it was “Never give a Pom an even break”?

Tautology rears its beastly little head again.

quote: Unfair m’lud! I’ve been a fan of theirs for a long time and most of that time they were very, very good. Recently they have struggled. Recently you have lent them your support. Coincidence? I do not think so!

Rugby fans are like cartons of milk - they each have a use-by date. Past their use-by date, they're seriously on the nose.

quote: Oh it’s possible. I think I’ve told you who was the last team to beat us at HQ and when it was. Can you remember? We are thirsting to set that one right this time.

Interesting how that fraudulent, last-minute Dan Luger non-try seems to have dissolved in history's melting pot.

	05-10-2002 06:12									#290
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia My mouth is watering also. Better wash it down with some beer!

Nice to see the ABs actually fronting up for a match against the Poms, too.

	05-10-2002 09:18									#291
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Careful, Cal, you're in danger of earning a Red Card for taking something posted in this thread remotely seriously.

Ive been living here so long I forgot that America and materialism go hand in hand.

quote: I wouldn't disagree that it helps us more. No doubt. My point was, though, that any domestic comp amounts to playing amongst yourselves, with, always, some teams much stronger than others. I honestly think there's a limit to the usefulness of a club comp in taking players to higher levels.

Yeah, but I still think Australia would benefit from an NPC style competition. Have there ever been any plans for something like that?

quote: Nice to see the ABs actually fronting up for a match against the Poms, too.

Yeah, about bloody time...

AUCKLAND 50 - OTAGO 26

Well Auckland really hammered them in this one. It was 31 - 11 Auckland at half time, and they kept scoring tries in the second half too. An interesting statistic - Otago have not beaten Auckland at Eden Park in an NPC match since 1976. I guess they'll have to wait a little longer for that win.

	05-10-2002 10:53									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Yeah, but I still think Australia would benefit from an NPC style competition. Have there ever been any plans for something like that?

Rugby is only played seriously in Sydney and Brisbane, with a small playing population around the Canberra area. There are plans to bring the Sydney and Brisbane clubs into competition with each other. That would be our smallscale version of the NPC, I guess. As I pointed out to Havak once before, Sydney's oldest and most successful rugby clubs - Randwick and Sydney Uni, for example - are basically amateur. The only players who get paid (beyond expenses) are those with either S12 or Wallaby contracts.

quote: An interesting statistic - Otago have not beaten Auckland at Eden Park in an NPC match since 1976. I guess they'll have to wait a little longer for that win.

Substitute England for Auckland and Twickers for Eden Park and you're sounding worrying like you-know-who.

	05-10-2002 10:57									#293
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The only experience I've ever had with rugby has been with Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life" where the Masters play the students. That entire movie has scarred me for life, and so I turn over in Cali's grave to taunt him.

	05-10-2002 15:07									#294
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Er, go the Warriors!

I guess NRL counts too? So how many NZers WON'T have a bet on them to win?

	05-10-2002 16:40									#295
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt I guess NRL counts too?

No it doesn't! In fact, anyone who mentions the L***** word around here gets a Red Card!

	05-10-2002 17:22									#296
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt I guess NRL counts too?

There is only one thing worse than speaking about the game played by thirteen players : it's speaking about the other game played by eleven penguins with a round calabash.

	05-10-2002 18:07									#297
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Damn. Sorry I asked. I only thought there wouldbe some rugby-playing nation group feeling here. I guess you'd better get posting quickly, else you'll have to look at my avatar for a while!

	05-10-2002 18:25									#298
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt ...you'll have to look at my avatar for a while!

Where is this damn red card ? The last time I saw it, well, see....

	05-10-2002 19:13									#299
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Attachment: picture03.jpg
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	05-10-2002 20:02									#300
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin There is only one thing worse than speaking about the game played by thirteen players : it's speaking about the other game played by eleven penguins with a round calabash.

The Dutch play it - why don't the French?