01-10-2002 18:26									#211
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quote: Originally posted by finbar It seems to be predicated on the fact that the Wallabies and Boks will be there anyway as part of their NH tour. Presumably the ABs aren't touring

Yeah, but there is talk of the competition becoming a permanent annual event if it is successful. I agree though, there does need to be more regular competition between the two hemispheres. Its a pity that north v south idea never got off the ground.

	01-10-2002 18:47									#212
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Caligastia is right - it's being reported here as if it's a permanent proposal.

One can understand the ABs and all the other 'six' nations sides being somewhat peeved.

Or as one of friends just put it when he read the news - "Excellent. The only competitive game in the six nations now is France, so this is a great idea".

	01-10-2002 18:56									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I can only reliably trace my family through the paternal line about 150 years but my surname establishes our family as being established before the Norman conquest i.e it’s a saxon name in origin. As to whether the original Havak was a Saxon or Angle or Dane (or possibly even a Briton) it’s hard to say. If you trace enough connections you will find all of them no doubt.

I can envisage your grampa at tighthead on the scrum machine on the long boat down from the north warming up for the kick off upon arrival.

quote: A lot of one’s countrymen do not realise what fascinating mix this little Island has in it’s history.

I envy that history too.

quote: You can’t argue with Gloucesters start even if it is painful for a midlander.

I'm waiting for the bubble to burst. Any bandwagon I jump onto promptly pops a bearing. Look at what I've done to poor old Tamerlin.

	01-10-2002 19:00									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Yeah, but there is talk of the competition becoming a permanent annual event if it is successful.

I just noticed that. There's absolutely nil reference to the ABs, not even that they turned down the idea. Maybe they just think 4 would be too many. I must look into it.

Edit. There's no mention of it on the NZRFU site. But there's an interesting observation on Planet Rugby:

quote: The new competition could spell the end of the SANZAR Tri-Nations, the current deal for that competition expiring in 2005, as three of the top four nations in world rugby move closer to a synchronised global rugby season.

How long ago was it that the Boks were talking about joining the 6 Nations? Very interesting piece of extrapolation.

quote: Its a pity that north v south idea never got off the ground.

The IRB just re-mooted it (so to speak) as a fundraiser this November and the England and Australian Player Unions knocked it back on the grounds of player fatigue. Yet an alternative that has the same problem is being seriously proposed. I'm not sure that the IRB will warm to the new proposal even if the players and clubs buy it.

	01-10-2002 19:24									#215
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Interesting quote from planet rugby there. If this new competition was to replace the SANZAR Tri-nations competition I think they would have to at least include the All Blacks. The ideal would be to include France too. I they did that they would have to create another competition for those 6-nations countries left in the cold.

	01-10-2002 20:03									#216
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Much as it shames me to admit it Finbar I am the first rugby nut in my family. Before that the paternal line was football all the way. I’m considered something of a black sheep.

quote: I envy that history too.

Whatever your background it’s really your history too – the good and the bad of it – if only for the language you are using to post.

You know thinking about it Finbar you have rather de-railed Toulouse with your support. I only hope you can work the same charm on ‘Glaws’.

Sadly I doubt it – strong squad, good coach, solid captain. Our best bet is still their going bankrupt.

I see the RFU are now denying that the ABs are being excluded, and the concept seems to be a wider one of also scheduling lengthier tours between France/England and the SANZAR nations?

I’m not sure I like the idea of either tri-nations of six nations going though – way too much history there.

By crikey I would like to be at the WRU meeting that takes place right after England did defect though!!!

	01-10-2002 23:37									#217
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Havak, Finbar should not be blamed for everything that is going wrong in Rugby, perhaps is it true for most of it but not for all. The Stade Toulousain is often considered as being its own worst opponent and is perfectly able to lose an easy game without any help (except from the referee of course).

A North vs South competition without France or New Zealand would be ridiculous, the sixth nation could be the winner of a tournament between Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy.

Though Havak and I can have a similar opinion I doubt our respective Unions can, so this kind of competition is not ready to be created.

	01-10-2002 23:44									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Havak, Finbar should not be blamed for everything that is going wrong in Rugby, perhaps is it true for most of it but not for all.

I think thats reasonable. Youre very fair Tamerlin. Firm, but fair.

	01-10-2002 23:59									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia You're very fair Tamerlin. Firm, but fair.

Thanks !

	02-10-2002 06:20									#220
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Here's the NZRFU's thoughts on the England/Boks/Wallaby series.

There's a distinct tone of left-outedness.

It's also interesting to read the English Union doing a lot of oil-on- potentially-troubled-waters pouring at Planet Rugby.

	02-10-2002 06:45									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Much as it shames me to admit it Finbar I am the first rugby nut in my family. Before that the paternal line was football all the way. I’m considered something of a black sheep.

Mmmmm. But you know what they say about throwbacks in families. If I ever hear of you hurling yourself to the ground in some penalty box somewhere clutching at some part of your anatomy and squealing for a penalty - you're in big trouble!

quote: Whatever your background it’s really your history too – the good and the bad of it – if only for the language you are using to post.

You're most generous. I would still rather own it than get my kicks vicariously.

quote: You know thinking about it Finbar you have rather de-railed Toulouse with your support. I only hope you can work the same charm on ‘Glaws’.

I'm thinking of taking up barracking for George W. Bush - the man whose only ever dream, I kid you not, was to run one of the national baseball leagues - for obvious reasons.

quote: Sadly I doubt it – strong squad, good coach, solid captain. Our best bet is still their going bankrupt.

I'm starting up a Save The Gloucester RFC Fund. I know I can count on you for at least a couple of bits of lint from the bottom of one of your pockets.

quote: I see the RFU are now denying that the ABs are being excluded, and the concept seems to be a wider one of also scheduling lengthier tours between France/England and the SANZAR nations?

Methinks there's some placating going on, as I suggested in my last post. And, as it happens, the NZRFU is saying they want fewer matches of higher quality. That, I suspect, is pretty heavy-handed code for ditching the S12.

quote: I’m not sure I like the idea of either tri-nations of six nations going though – way too much history there.

Yes, but it seems to me that if the game is going to be truly international - by which I mean parallel seasons (as much as that's possible) - then the hemisphere-based comps would have to go in order to clear the way. I suppose it depends, ultimately, on what value is placed on the game being truly international. Or, in fact, whether it ever can be.

	02-10-2002 07:10									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Havak, Finbar should not be blamed for everything that is going wrong in Rugby, perhaps is it true for most of it but not for all. The Stade Toulousain is often considered as being its own worst opponent and is perfectly able to lose an easy game without any help (except from the referee of course).

Yes, Tamerlin, but you must admit they've suffered since I've been on the bandwagon. I'm prepared to jump off again for 50 francs. Yes, I know it's all Euros now, but I refuse to acknowledge them. One of my great delights pottering around Europe was changing money. They called me the Human Calculator.

quote: A North vs South competition without France or New Zealand would be ridiculous

If it's to be a comprehensive competition, you're quite right.

quote: Though Havak and I can have a similar opinion I doubt our respective Unions can, so this kind of competition is not ready to be created.

	02-10-2002 13:15									#223
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quote: A North vs South competition without France or New Zealand would be ridiculous

Well said!

quote: Though Havak and I can have a similar opinion I doubt our respective Unions can, so this kind of competition is not ready to be created

Money will be the stumbling block. The RFU has many faults, but it knows how to rake in the cash. This proposal is largely about sharing the wealth. For example this November the RFU will keep well over 90% of the revenue from the three fixtures which is very lucrative. Were England to tour NZ the NZRFU would do the same (though in purely cash terms that won’t gain them the same level of income I suspect).

We do need to be careful that the developing nations – like Wales – are not totally excluded?

quote: It's also interesting to read the English Union doing a lot of oil-on- potentially-troubled-waters pouring at Planet Rugby.

Well it needed doing I think, and probably better left to the English. I mean can you imaging O’Neil trying diplomacy? At the same time it is partly self created as a problem – they persistently avoid England during their vacations to the NH – for example they were up here last year but avoided us to play Celts if I recall – what is the point of that, and why should they be surprised if we hold a party and don’t invite them after all the invites they have snubbed? I’ll give this to Australia – they are always willing to play us be it here or down under.
I have to say Finbar if you ever catch me playing soccer I will accept whatever censure the committee here passes on me. I do however have to reserve the right that I may still clutch parts of my anatomy and scream for a penalty (“penalty sir?”) just in case I get on a rugger pitch again.

quote: I would still rather own it than get my kicks vicariously.

Well it’s rich but it isn’t unqualifiedly great (please excuse my suspect grammar). I enjoy my nations history but I am not as close minded about it as some nationalists. There are some nasty dark chapters and as is ever the case those chapters tend to be the most interesting.

quote: I'm starting up a Save The Gloucester RFC Fund

A noble cause indeed. I’ll start collecting lint now.

quote: That, I suspect, is pretty heavy-handed code for ditching the S12.

Do you really think so? I wouldn’t be totally surprised to be honest as it is easy to see what S12 does for the Wallabies but it is less clear what it does for the ABs – NZ has high class domestic competition to fall back on as oft mentioned here.

quote: what value is placed on the game being truly international

I think we need to set more modest targets. A global season is very ambitious and would only ever happen if you moved to match our pattern I suspect. Rugby in summer is OZ – talk about hard ground!!

Seriously I can’t ever see the English adjusting their season away from winter so it’s a non-starter. And sure fewer higher quality games make a great sound bite but the reality is it needs a ground up re-working of the game – it’s unlikely to say the least?

And it’s hard to convey, though I know I have tried before, but there’s a hard core here who care more about smashing the Welsh regularly than about close tough matches with SANZAR opponents. That attitude would need to be overcome as well. A tricky proposal.

quote: They called me the Human Calculator.

Are you sure you heard them correctly?

My tour party has already encountered problems with the Euro -, on a scouting mission to Brussels last week the locals refused to take Irish Euros from them. So what is the point of a single currency again?

This is where Europe went wrong you see – there is a ready made single currency, it’s called ‘Sterling’.

	02-10-2002 17:42									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Havak We do need to be careful that the developing nations – like Wales – are not totally excluded?

I appreciate the irony.

quote: Well it needed doing I think, and probably better left to the English. I mean can you imaging O’Neil trying diplomacy?

Well, he did set aside 3,000 tickets at the WRC final specifically for AB fans. I haven't heard them say thank you.

quote: At the same time it is partly self created as a problem – they persistently avoid England during their vacations to the NH – for example they were up here last year but avoided us to play Celts if I recall – what is the point of that, and why should they be surprised if we hold a party and don’t invite them after all the invites they have snubbed?

Well, they prefer the Celts because, on the NZRFU website, they say they want fewer matches of higher quality. I imagine there's a kind of logic in there somewhere.

quote: I’ll give this to Australia – they are always willing to play us be it here or down under.

And why not? A joust against the Old Country in any sport is good stuff.

quote: I do however have to reserve the right that I may still clutch parts of my anatomy and scream for a penalty (“penalty sir?”) just in case I get on a rugger pitch again.

I imagine you've lost a bit of your nip over the first five yards?

quote: Well it’s rich but it isn’t unqualifiedly great (please excuse my suspect grammar). I enjoy my nations history but I am not as close minded about it as some nationalists. There are some nasty dark chapters and as is ever the case those chapters tend to be the most interesting.

That's the point, I think - good, bad, ugly, it's rich and interesting, sometimes to be condemned, often to be celebrated, and can still inform life today. But if you ain't got it, none of the preceding can apply.

quote: Do you really think so? I wouldn’t be totally surprised to be honest as it is easy to see what S12 does for the Wallabies but it is less clear what it does for the ABs – NZ has high class domestic competition to fall back on as oft mentioned here.

The Kiwis are well known to want to be rid of the S12. As you say, they don't need it. OTOH, we do.

quote: I think we need to set more modest targets. A global season is very ambitious and would only ever happen if you moved to match our pattern I suspect. Rugby in summer is OZ – talk about hard ground!!

Summer wouldn't work, but spring or autumn would.

quote: Seriously I can’t ever see the English adjusting their season away from winter so it’s a non-starter. And sure fewer higher quality games make a great sound bite but the reality is it needs a ground up re-working of the game – it’s unlikely to say the least?

The latter point's the key, I think. The sort of cooperation between the various Unions required to pull off a global season is immensely unlikely.

quote: And it’s hard to convey, though I know I have tried before, but there’s a hard core here who care more about smashing the Welsh regularly than about close tough matches with SANZAR opponents. That attitude would need to be overcome as well. A tricky proposal.

I can understand the desire to smash the Welsh. It parallels the Australia-New Zealand situation, though the quality of the oppo is marginally different in our case.

quote: So what is the point of a single currency again?

Don't get me started on it! Creeping homogenisation driven by the money men.

	02-10-2002 18:28									#225
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quote: I haven't heard them say thank you.

I would not expect to be deafened by it.

Or to coin your own phrase I do appreciate the irony.

quote: I imagine there's a kind of logic in there somewhere.

There is a twisted logic yes – “fewer matches of higher quality” could be read as “more matches of lower quality”. This of course is what you implied.

quote: And why not? A joust against the Old Country in any sport is good stuff.

I agree in a qualified way. I like it to be sports where the clash is at least competitive. So I will not be glued to the ashes it is safe to say.

Rowing, of all things, seems to be an area where we can compete. Shame it’s so boring then really.

quote: I imagine you've lost a bit of your nip over the first five yards?

“lost” would imply it was there to begin with.

quote: if you ain't got it, none of the preceding can apply.

Excellent point. I particularly like your remark on the way it can inform life today, too few people understand that very thing.

I have to say I worry for Australia on the S12 then. It’s very hard to keep people involved in something they have no interest in, so if NZ truly want out I am sure they will find an opportunity.

quote: Summer wouldn't work, but spring or autumn would.

What months would that be? Thinking about it our season runs Autumn-Spring already (Aug-May)

quote: The sort of cooperation between the various Unions required to pull off a global season is immensely unlikely.

A snowball would have a better chance of having a long and successful career in hell I would suggest.

quote: though the quality of the oppo is marginally different in our case.

There are extended parallels though. They used to be better than us, then we drew level, then we left them in our dust. All you need to do is do the latter to the ABs and the cases will match entirely.

quote: Creeping homogenisation driven by the money men

Can you truly imagine my countrymen ever being fully homogenised into Europeans?

	02-10-2002 19:20									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Can you truly imagine my countrymen ever being fully homogenised into Europeans?

Fortunately (or unfortunately, which depends on your opinion), I think economical considerations will force Great Britain to join the Euro zone and enforce a deeper european cooperation policy.

On the other hand, I sincerely believe (and hope) GB and France will keep their respective British and French spirits and that the European Community officials won't be able to do anything against that.

	02-10-2002 19:29									#227
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I would be sorry to see the super 12 go, but if it enabled the creation of a more international annual tournament it would be worth it. The hemispheres really are too polarized, I mean we have two annual competitions between the same three nations down here.

If there is to be widespread change in the current structure of rugby competitions (i.e. scrapping of the super12, six and tri nations), this is what I would like to see emerge.

- A new 6 nations with NZ, SA, Oz, England, France and Argentina. In this competition we would have the top five teams in the world, with a developing rugby nation thrown in there. Argentina would benefit immensely from playing against the "big five" on a regular basis, and the benefits would also no doubt be passed on to Chile.

- A new 6 nations type of european competition with Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Italy, Georgia and Romania. As Ireland, Wales, and Scotland are a significant step down from England and France, but a significant step up from Italy, Georgia and Romania, the latter three countries would greatly benefit from regular play against the former. Perhaps even Russia could be brought in at some stage. Ireland, Wales and Scotland could still have the occasional test series against France and England.


This is all open to discussion of course. What do you guys think?

	02-10-2002 19:59									#228
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I think changing the Super 12 would be a bad idea. The Super 12 has allowed regional talent to perform at international level, thus lifting the standard of the entire southern hemisphere.

However, I agree that rugby should grow instead of becoming an old boys’ club, so I think it would be great if a “development” or “invitational” side could participate in the competition.

There is a proposal on the cards to create an annual triangular between SA, Oz and England to be played every November. Should make interesting viewing.

	02-10-2002 20:18									#229
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Welcome! We have only had one other South African posting here in the past and he hasnt been here for a while. Hopefully now we will have someone representing SA posting here regularly now.

quote: Originally posted by Devil of Truth I think changing the Super 12 would be a bad idea. The Super 12 has allowed regional talent to perform at international level, thus lifting the standard of the entire southern hemisphere.

I agree, but in order to avoid tiring out the top players maybe it should be up to each country to develop their talent.

quote: There is a proposal on the cards to create an annual triangular between SA, Oz and England to be played every November. Should make interesting viewing.

If you look back at some of the other posts on this page you will see we have discussed this a little bit already. We all generally agree that such a competition is ridiculous to exclude NZ and France.

	02-10-2002 20:26									#230
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It's worth checking this out - some very very upset people letting both O'Neil and also the English (in general apparently) have it with both barrels.

For all your countrymen being rude about us in this link Cal I really hope we turn you over in November now.

Do not exclude the ABs!

	02-10-2002 20:36									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Havak It's worth checking this out - some very very upset people letting both O'Neil and also the English (in general apparently) have it with both barrels. For all your countrymen being rude about us in this link Cal I really hope we turn you over in November now. Do not exclude the ABs!

Ha ha, yeah I was just reading that.

So what did you think of my competition ideas?

	02-10-2002 20:41									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Welcome! We have only had one other South African posting here in the past and he hasnt been here for a while. Hopefully now we will have someone representing SA posting here regularly now.

I’ve noticed that South Africans are a little thin on the ground ‘round here . Will do my best to waive the flag.

I agree that most players are hopelessly overplayed. (That being one of the reasons cited for dropping the North vs. South match.) But you just cannot beat Brumbies vs. Highlanders vs. Stormers etc. for some serious development.

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia If you look back at some of the other posts on this page you will see we have discussed this a little bit already. We all generally agree that such a competition is ridiculous to exclude NZ and France.

Oops. Not my day . Noticed the mentions after my post. Agree on the NZ & France issue.

	02-10-2002 20:56									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Devil of Truth I’ve noticed that South Africans are a little thin on the ground ‘round here . Will do my best to waive the flag.

Excellent.

quote: I agree that most players are hopelessly overplayed. (That being one of the reasons cited for dropping the North vs. South match.) But you just cannot beat Brumbies vs. Highlanders vs. Stormers etc. for some serious development.

Thats true, and I do really enjoy the super 12. Perhaps if we had an international competition going on at the same time as the super 12 it would give more of the up-and-coming players a chance to show their stuff as the best players would be involved in the international comp. Not only that, but it would make things easier on the top players because they wouldnt be exhausted by playing in the Super 12 as well as international matches.

quote: Oops. Not my day

No worries

	03-10-2002 02:17									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Devil of Truth Agree on the NZ & France issue.

Well, we are starting on a good ground...

Welcome, Devil of Truth! As Caligastia told you before, South Africa is not represented here since a few months. Keep the flame !

	03-10-2002 05:32									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Havak There is a twisted logic yes – “fewer matches of higher quality” could be read as “more matches of lower quality”. This of course is what you implied.

quote: I agree in a qualified way. I like it to be sports where the clash is at least competitive. So I will not be glued to the ashes it is safe to say.

All the better, obviously, if it's competitive. It will be interesting to see what effect, if any, Rodney Marsh and his academy have on your cricket standards. He seems to have an opinion of the two new young quicks who are coming here. I only saw them briefly in the recent series over there and they looked handy for their age. At least our pitches here will help them if they've got strong backs and the commitment.

quote: Rowing, of all things, seems to be an area where we can compete. Shame it’s so boring then really.

Yes, it must be disspiriting to lead the world in so many crashingly boring sports like rowing and that bizarre Winter Olympics event where they slide something down an ice lane and chase it with brooms.

quote: Excellent point. I particularly like your remark on the way it can inform life today, too few people understand that very thing.

Not to mention those who are too arrogant or stupid (or both) to learn from past mistakes.

quote: What months would that be? Thinking about it our season runs Autumn-Spring already (Aug-May)

The weather would be suitable here from March onwards, through until late September, perhaps into October.

quote: There are extended parallels though. They used to be better than us, then we drew level, then we left them in our dust. All you need to do is do the latter to the ABs and the cases will match entirely.

It's on the cards.

quote: Can you truly imagine my countrymen ever being fully homogenised into Europeans?

Absolutely not. Nor, I hope, will it happen elsewhere in Europe. In fact, given the local pride, it probably won't. But the blight on our civilisation that is the money men, to whom culture and identity is no priority at all, will do their damndest.

	03-10-2002 05:35									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin On the other hand, I sincerely believe (and hope) GB and France will keep their respective British and French spirits and that the European Community officials won't be able to do anything against that.

	03-10-2002 05:52									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia If there is to be widespread change in the current structure of rugby competitions (i.e. scrapping of the super12, six and tri nations), this is what I would like to see emerge.

I think there's great merit in the suggestions. With these provisos:

1. I would keep the S12 but in a different, probably abbreviated format (for all the reasons I've paraded endlessly before, and I think South Africa should agree on the basis that the S12 has been a huge factor in their recent revival) and scrap the Tri-Nations in favour of your 6 Nations concept.

2. I think it's unlikely to happen for the reason I suggested in an earlier post. The degree of cooperation required between so many Unions lands it in the impossible basket. I suspect its only chance of success will hang on the potential for fiscal reward.

	03-10-2002 05:59									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Havak It's worth checking this out - some very very upset people letting both O'Neil and also the English (in general apparently) have it with both barrels.

At least it proves that angry Kiwis are slightly more literate than angry Australians but then angry illiterates are vastly more literate than most Australians anyway.

quote: For all your countrymen being rude about us in this link Cal I really hope we turn you over in November now.

And about time. I was wearying of your hopes that the ABs would cream England in November.

	03-10-2002 06:06									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Devil of Truth I’ve noticed that South Africans are a little thin on the ground ‘round here . Will do my best to waive the flag.

Welcome, DoT!

You should be aware of the house rules:

1. You will be shown a Yellow Card if any post displays wit.

2. You will be shown a Red Card if any post displays intelligence.

3. You will be sentenced to watch a Rugby League match if any post displays both wit and intelligence.



Apart from that, just don't take any notice of Havak. He knows nothing about rugby. He's from a soccer heritage. Just humour him as we do.

	03-10-2002 12:25									#240
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Thanks everybody for the warm reception. Glad I can lend a hand.

Now, about those house rules… please don’t make me watch League… please… I’ll do anything… I’ll even cheer for Australia… no… wait a minute… rather make me watch League.

quote: Originally posted by finbar 1. ...South Africa should agree on the basis that the S12 has been a huge factor in their recent revival)

Revival? What revival? (Our strategy has been to lull everybody into a false sense of security. Apparently it’s worked.)

The S12 has definitely helped our game – no doubt. But our national team’s reversal of fortune has more to do with increased home-side support and confidence (not to mention marketing campaigns); and a coach that has actually played the game before.

quote: Originally posted by finbar 1. I would keep the S12 but in a different, probably abbreviated format ... and scrap the Tri-Nations in favour of your 6 Nations concept.

That’s what I’m saying! You need to keep the S12, but expand the Tri-nations. Definitely include France and England – and maybe leave the final berth open on invitation. Add something different to the match every year.