25-09-2002 13:18									#151
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Good grief! You're in early! And posting before your wake-up coffee. We're impressed.

quote: now their latest academy graduates have all been back line

Well, the English team's crying out for some decent backs.

Any reports on how Mark Connors is going at Saints? And has Graham Bond started yet?

quote: Nicely done. The Wallabies being whiter than white on that score?

Toti Kefu undergoes Michael Jackson skin peels daily. I only hope he leaves his nose alone.

quote: Bristol away on Saturday as as your sig notes they are currently playing very badly. However away they are one of our bogie teams so who knows? I'm sure you also noted that the team we destroyed Saturday came within a last minute kick of beating the 'mighty' Gloucester the week before?

We like to encourage the oppo occasionally. Gloucester -v- Bath. I like our chances there.

	25-09-2002 17:11									#152
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quote: Originally posted by finbar So the heavily-depleted Pacific Island nations keep telling me.

Dont worry, Im sure Australia will learn to find good rugby players eventually...

	25-09-2002 18:31									#153
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quote: Good grief! You're in early! And posting before your wake-up coffee. We're impressed

During the coffee actually – and I’m always in early.

quote: Well, the English team's crying out for some decent backs.

Sure is – but unfair of them to make Tigers provide all the forwards don’t you think?

I caught about ten minutes of Connors playing for Saints so far. Not enough to judge properly – the snap judgement is ‘fairly average’. I didn’t think Bond had arrived yet – I’ll check.

quote: Gloucester -v- Bath. I like our chances there.

Indeed. Which is a little surreal to me. Before last season Bath regularly destroyed, even humiliated Gloucester. I can’t remember Bath losing to them at home before then, and it seldom happened away. How the cycles of rugger turn eh?

By the way I suspect your sig isn’t a genuine quote?

Cal they already have that sussed – they import. They frequently field a greater number of ‘nations of birth’ players than the ABs as it stands. Though Scotland still beat them with the "I had a whisky once" qualification policy.

	25-09-2002 19:35									#154
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Some new young faces and one interesting omissions:

Matthew Burke, Matt Cockbain, David Croft, Ben Darwin, Owen Finegan, Elton Flatley, Adam Freier, David Giffin, Matt Giteau, George Gregan (c), Justin Harrison, Daniel Herbert, Toutai Kefu, Chris Latham, Stephen Larkham, David Lyons, Stirling Mortlock, Patricio Noriega, Jeremy Paul, Mat Rogers, Wendell Sailor, George Smith, Nick Stiles, Ben Tune, Daniel Vickerman, Chris Whitaker, Bill Young.

Phil Waugh is probably the surprise omission. Problem is, he's had only a handful of club matches back from injury and is likely to play only one more before the end of the SH season. They're leaving him behind to work on fitness.

Matt Giteau is a very young face and a back-up half back. Hasn't yet played S12, but good judges say he has terrific potential. This is long-term planning. George Gregan will be returning home at some point during the tour for the birth of a child, so Giteau will get his opporunity.

Adam Frier is the back-up hooker to Jeremy Paul. Brendan Cannen, the Waratah hooker and incumbent back-up, is grizzling about his omission. Unfortunately for Brendan, he became the incumbent via default - there was no one else around. Frier is yet another piece of long-term thinking.

The truly nice thing is that both Giteau and Frier are sons of former L***** champions.

	25-09-2002 19:44									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Havak During the coffee actually

M-hm. Thus the one-finger typing.

quote: and I’m always in early.

Me too. One of the advantages of working from home.

quote: I caught about ten minutes of Connors playing for Saints so far. Not enough to judge properly – the snap judgement is ‘fairly average’. I didn’t think Bond had arrived yet – I’ll check.

Of the two, I'd take Bond. Quick, strong, skilled, committed. I've got a lot of time for him as a player. His is one of those unfortunate careers - often in the wrong place at the wrong time in terms of locking down a possie with a team.

quote: By the way I suspect your sig isn’t a genuine quote?

I've emailed it to the lad. You can expect to hear it from him soon enough. If he can read.

quote: Cal they already have that sussed – they import. They frequently field a greater number of ‘nations of birth’ players than the ABs as it stands.

I'm still waiting for the stats on this one, but let's not allow facts to interfere with a nice line.

	25-09-2002 20:07									#156
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You want proof rather than unsubstantiated allegations? Thats a Red card in this thread!!

	25-09-2002 20:30									#158
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I think Bond is actually touring with the Wallabies from what I can gather, and then staying on when they go home. You know he was born in Papua NG right Finbar?
And Jeremy Paul was born Kiwi (a traitor Cal?).

How about I toss names at you Finbar and you say "born Ozzie" or "tourist"? I know your country has a rich and varied immigrant history just like NZ who have turned out a ref called O'Brien after all!

How about Stcherbina? Tavake? (sic?) Panaho?

	25-09-2002 20:51									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Havak And Jeremy Paul was born Kiwi (a traitor Cal?)

Well I guess that depends on how long hes been living in aussie...

I wouldnt hold it against him if his parents were boarding the plane when he was 10 minutes old, as we usually wait a couple of days before branding them with the silver fern...

	26-09-2002 04:00									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Tamerlin I would hope that Collazo helps to improve the scrum at least? It sure does not sound like the Stade I have seen right now. As you say five years ago they were one of the most respected teams in Europe.

Yep ! I don't like the word "were"...

You are also right about Collazo though I suspect the problem is deeper than a mere lack of experience from the forwards.

quote: Fingers crossed it was just a “bad day”.

Fingers crossed with both hands and both feet.

quote: You might also like to know Tournaire was yellow carded Saturday for cynically killing ball. Definitely going to fit in well at Tigers.

This man can be trusted, he is a solid value.
But contrary to the other hypocrites I have no qualms about saying I told it to you before.

	26-09-2002 04:50									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I think Bond is actually touring with the Wallabies from what I can gather, and then staying on when they go home.

No, he's not touring. I'll check it out from this end.

quote: You know he was born in Papua NG right Finbar?

I suppose that's our equivalent of one of Cal's Pacific Island nations.

quote: And Jeremy Paul was born Kiwi (a traitor Cal?).

Yes, he saw the light.

quote: How about Stcherbina?

Born here. **You could be in trouble simply targeting non-Anglo Saxon surnames because there are fewer and fewer as the years roll by. On the same basis that I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to discover that Sachin Tendulkar came from Bradford.

quote: Tavake? (sic?)

Well you might quote [sic]. Who on earth do you mean?

quote: Panaho?

See ** above.

I told you not to try to back it up with stats.

Edit. Oh! And just to save you spilling your coffee putting it down quickly in your haste to post - Georgie Gregan was born of Australian-Zambian parents over there, came here when he was one year old.

	26-09-2002 04:58									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Well I guess that depends on how long hes been living in aussie...

Came here when he was a kid. So I suppose it was a case of his parents seeing the light.

	26-09-2002 05:03									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin But contrary to the other hypocrites I have no qualms about saying I told it to you before.

We don't say it loud, we just think it behind his back. Much more offensive!

	26-09-2002 13:19									#164
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quote: as we usually wait a couple of days before branding them with the silver fern...

He was a toddler – and therefore a thorough traitor.

quote: I suspect the problem is deeper than a mere lack of experience from the forwards.

Perhaps a breakdown in trust between players and coaching staff Tamerlin? It’s hard to recover from such things without radical changes.

quote: Fingers crossed with both hands and both feet.

You are too big a club to stay down for long. Things will get better, trust me.

You did indeed tell me Tournaire was good value – you also told me of his Achilles heal of poor discipline at times. Spot on with both.

quote: No, he's not touring. I'll check it out from this end.

Seems you are right – didn’t make the final 27. Snubbed by the ARU due to their facist “you leave you are dropped immediately” policy? Unless you are Roff and they want you back at all costs of course.

quote: You could be in trouble simply targeting non-Anglo Saxon surnames because there are fewer and fewer as the years roll by

It isn’t lost on me you used this to avoid the question you know.

A nice try at deflection but Australia’s open passport policy for sports folk can hardly be denied – so by targeting non AS names one is likely to find an import sooner rather than later.

Bizarrely of course Smith is the AS surname.

The asian community here is a rich component of our multi-cultural society and I would love to see an Asian Brit break into big time rugby. I would also love to see Tendulkar being from Bradford as he would be an English player then.

quote: Who on earth do you mean?

My bad - Jone Tawake, young blindside flanker from your backyard in NSW. Glen Panaho – prop. From Qland so I can understand you not knowing the name. Both were mooted for the tour but didn’t make the 27.

These are the lads who should be breaking through when your veterans take the kings shilling?

Harrison and the untested Giffen look like the test second row with Sharpe sidelined? I hope David is fit because you cannot throw him in against us unless he is fully fit – particularly as Grewcock’s ban strangely ends just before the internationals (if his name was Johnson it might end juts before RWC!).

And where is the cover for the back row – Smith, Kefu, Finegan is an okay unit but who steps in when they go off?

Whilst surfing yesterday I found a page authored by a much more stereotypical Aussie than yourself who was really awfully rude (old boy) about the English - I'll see if I can drag it up as it made me laugh out loud.

	26-09-2002 13:35									#165
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Here it is! Check out the 'country with the most players' part.

An Aussie spouts

Now several things are evident here - this guy has no clue whatsoever about the rich cultural heritage surrounding English local rugby and the long association with rugby being a fun social (yes, even drinking) event.

He is also an idiot if he thinks even local players don't want to win when they play and if he believes the amateur leagues here are not competitive.

I can tell you from my own observation that the quality of rugby in the local leagues has gone through the roof since the top of the game went professional seven years ago, and whilst this chump made me laugh I'm guessing it will come as a real shock to him when that player roster starts to churn out a stream of top class players in five to ten years time.

	26-09-2002 13:58									#166
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How's the coffee?

quote: Seems you are right – didn’t make the final 27. Snubbed by the ARU due to their facist “you leave you are dropped immediately” policy? Unless you are Roff and they want you back at all costs of course.

Bondy had a couple of runs this season but he was never able to cement his place in the top team, unfortunately. He's a winger and centre and we've got several of them of real quality who outrank him. I don't know what sort of game his team over there plays, but he will repay them, regardless.

quote: A nice try at deflection but Australia’s open passport policy for sports folk can hardly be denied – so by targeting non AS names one is likely to find an import sooner rather than later.

Keep going.

quote: Bizarrely of course Smith is the AS surname.

George Smith? Aboriginal heritage, actually.

quote: I would also love to see Tendulkar being from Bradford as he would be an English player then.

You should try to organise a swap with the Indians - Tendulkar for Graham Thorpe. Poor guy, I'm really feeling sorry for him. I understand he's not the most stable temperament, but what he's going through can be ugly.

quote: My bad - Jone Tawake, young blindside flanker from your backyard in NSW.

Now I've got him. Good young player.

quote: Glen Panaho – prop. From Qland so I can understand you not knowing the name. Both were mooted for the tour but didn’t make the 27.

Yes, I got him. He's a local. I think there were a few unlucky young ones. But the two kids they're taking are real kids. I suppose they had to draw the line somewhere.

quote: Harrison and the untested Giffen look like the test second row with Sharpe sidelined? I hope David is fit because you cannot throw him in against us unless he is fully fit – particularly as Grewcock’s ban strangely ends just before the internationals (if his name was Johnson it might end juts before RWC!).

Daniel Vickerman - the young South African-born bloke I mentioned - will press Harrison, though he (Vickerman) is probably going for the experience. There's talk of moving Owen Finnegan into the second row, too. Giffen is more advanced with his fitness than Phil Waugh but you're right - I hope he's up to it.

quote: And where is the cover for the back row – Smith, Kefu, Finegan is an okay unit but who steps in when they go off?

David Croft is going. High hopes are held for him. Young bloke, skippered the A team this year which is an indication of the regard they have for him. David Lyons - whom I've spoken of before - is also there.

quote: Whilst surfing yesterday I found a page authored by a much more stereotypical Aussie than yourself who was really awfully rude (old boy) about the English - I'll see if I can drag it up as it made me laugh out loud.

Find it. I haven't had a good cringe for a while.

	26-09-2002 14:13									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Here it is! Check out the 'country with the most players' part.

At least you can call him even-handed in his hatreds. He's certainly a John O'Neil fan.

But his breakdown of the WRC groups and finals is interesting.

	26-09-2002 15:19									#168
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The coffee is just right thanks.

Bondy signed for Sale didn’t he? He’ll only cover the wing there – they must be looking for him as a centre. With a wing/fullback outfit of Cueto/Robinson/Hanley Bond is only going to play wing when there are injuries or those guys get rested. Still he seems used to that role.

quote: Keep going.

I don’t need to. I never accepted your rationalisation for letting Noriega pretend to be Aussie so what makes you think I’ll accept anything less than 4th generation Aussies wearing the shirt?

quote: George Smith? Aboriginal heritage, actually.

Yup, I was actually re-enforcing your point that surnames are misleading as a guide.

Thorpey seems on a raggard edge indeed – doesn’t know if he is coming or going. But as you say these things are not easy. It’s a crying shame for cricket as he is a quality bat when his head is in gear.

It’s a young hooker and scrummy making the trip right?

And Stiles the only actual Aussie who will face us in the first choice front row – shocking.

I know I give Harrison a hard time in these posts but frankly I really think he has failed to meet his potential since the Lions – Sharpe looked the class of the pair throughout the tri-nations. It may be worth trying Vickerman, at the least he will be an unknown quantity.

You will of course allow me that Vickerman is not Australian and is one of the tourists I dislike so much. Hard to be an Aussie when you were born in Cape Town and have an Afrikaans surname.

And Gregan by the way – wasn’t he actually born in Zambia?

Still Smithy is from Manly – I spent a happy day there in a bar (U-Bar?) with the newly defeated Lions who took the situation with the grace that was so clearly lacking from the other side after Brissy.

*Finbar shakes his head and says will this guy ever let it go*

(and in case you are in doubt I’m just having fun here. I do think though that the Wallabies should have been forced to go on the p*** with the Lions rather than have that stuffy after test dinner – the only way to understand NH tradition is to dip your toe right in).

But you must treat us with more respect than bumping Finny into the second row surely? He is a good flanker – no beef there, but a back five cover is rare – Corry can do it, but Finny? Not convinced at all.

Whoops – I missed Lyons, should have caught him. For a start he seems to be your back five cover – has played lock right? Croft is new to me though, and you don’t captain the A side unless you know what you are doing (as Ben Kay also did here). This will be interesting as, all modesty aside, our back row is now awesome – picking from Hill, Back, Dallaglio, Corry and Moody. Remember you are talking about a country where the legend that is Kronfeld has to sit on his club bench because of the English talent there.

Oh and Dallaglio is apparently fully fit and playing well. I have to admit I thought the last injury might end him as a top flight player but I’m sure he will figure in the autumn now.

Actually Havak was given a rare treat last weekend to see the opposition faces as Lewis Moody was taken off on 60 minutes and the already reeling Newcastle side saw a totally hyper Josh come on and throw himself everywhere for the rest of the game.

We are badly spoilt in some ways at Welford Road – but at least we know it.

I only got as far as the word “ripper” in Pool A in the diatribes and my brain switched off. Particularly as I think Ireland may surprise him.

And I just totally dismissed the racist nonsense about the Japies and England. He and anyone else simply writing off England are very misguided indeed.

	26-09-2002 17:24									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Havak The coffee is just right thanks.

Goodoh. Instant? Or the real thing? I only drink the real thing out of a real machine. So I bought one. Other than that, it's tea.

quote: Bondy signed for Sale didn’t he?

Yep.

quote: With a wing/fullback outfit of Cueto/Robinson/Hanley Bond is only going to play wing when there are injuries or those guys get rested.

Then he'll play centre. He's certainly strong enough and his skills are good enough.

quote: so what makes you think I’ll accept anything less than 4th generation Aussies wearing the shirt?

Of course you won't. But you keep putting 'em up, I'll keep knocking 'em down. BTW, how unItalian is Lawrence "Snorter" Dallaglio?

quote: It’s a young hooker and scrummy making the trip right?

Yeah, the latter can play halfback and 5/8 apparently. Frankly, I know next to nothing about him. He's only 20, he's played rep 7s and U21s but hasn't yet played S12. Apparently Glen Ella tipped off Eddie Jones about him a while ago.

quote: I know I give Harrison a hard time in these posts but frankly I really think he has failed to meet his potential since the Lions – Sharpe looked the class of the pair throughout the tri-nations. It may be worth trying Vickerman, at the least he will be an unknown quantity.

I wouldn't disagree about Harrison. He can't live off robbing Jonno forever. Sharpe made him look a bit average by comparison and he (Sharpe) is quite a deal younger too.

quote: You will of course allow me that Vickerman is not Australian and is one of the tourists I dislike so much. Hard to be an Aussie when you were born in Cape Town and have an Afrikaans surname.

As I've said before - if your parents up and off to another country, what are you going to do? Doesn't worry me in the slightest.

quote: And Gregan by the way – wasn’t he actually born in Zambia?

Don't your read my posts? Australian-Zambian parents, came here when he was one!

quote: (and in case you are in doubt I’m just having fun here. I do think though that the Wallabies should have been forced to go on the p*** with the Lions rather than have that stuffy after test dinner – the only way to understand NH tradition is to dip your toe right in).

Who knows why things happen? Certainly the Wallabies and the ABs socialise. Gregan and Justin Marshall and Mehrtens are all good mates, they do BBQs at each other's places.

quote: But you must treat us with more respect than bumping Finny into the second row surely? He is a good flanker – no beef there, but a back five cover is rare – Corry can do it, but Finny? Not convinced at all.

I'm not sure what the Finnegan thing is all about. There was talk of it happening earlier this season but it didn't. I suspect it might be a concern about him losing his pace as he's getting on. He's made it clear this is his last season. Actually, I think they will probably consider him as a back-up second rower, a cover in case Giffen has problems, etc. I gather they want to start David Lyons (in Finnegan's spot) so Finnegan might even finish up coming off the bench for impact. He's highly valued within the team.

quote: Whoops – I missed Lyons, should have caught him. For a start he seems to be your back five cover – has played lock right?

He's always played flanker or #8. Finnegan's successor, basically. He's big enough to play lock if need be.

quote: Croft is new to me though, and you don’t captain the A side unless you know what you are doing (as Ben Kay also did here).

Went from S12 to the A team to captaining the A team to the Wallaby bench against the French in about a month. Talked about as a future Wallaby skipper.

quote: Oh and Dallaglio is apparently fully fit

Nostrils clear?

quote: I only got as far as the word “ripper” in Pool A in the diatribes and my brain switched off. Particularly as I think Ireland may surprise him.

I didn't think he was unkind about the Irish. It's worth going back and having a look at his assessments. He predicts an AB-Boks final, won by the ABs.

	26-09-2002 19:19									#170
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Instant sadly. The occasional Latte from a packet too (don’t ask).

quote: Then he'll play centre. He's certainly strong enough and his skills are good enough.

Forgive my wickedness – I didn’t mean he wasn’t a good player, just that I was sure they bought him as centre as their back unit is well established.

quote: Of course you won't. But you keep putting 'em up, I'll keep knocking 'em down

No worries mate, as they say.

Dally was born in England (London in fact) which kind of makes him English. As was Dan Luger before you ask. And Mike Catt was born in ‘Port Elizabeth’ which I am guessing is a small town in England somewhere?

As I think you know it’s residency that bugs me – and Vickerman is a case in point not being Australian in truth in any other way at all. At least Catt got in through parentage (as indeed will Horak if he can ever string a run together – awesome at times but scary at others – plays for London Irish)

Hmm mentioning the exiles there it reminds me they have dropped Roussow after a poor start to the campaign – not even playing for his pension on Saturday then.

Based on what you have said before if Glen Ella has tipped someone that is definitely one to watch. Hope he gets a proper run in a big game (in other words not Italy).

quote: He can't live off robbing Jonno forever

In the final analysis whilst he took it well it was one set piece steal. In the rest of the match Woody’s throwing gave jonno more grief than Justin did.

He’s been largely anonymous since then. It’s a shame as he seems a nice lad (off the field!). I remarked how well he interviewed last touring season – he can take the mickey out of himself which is good – imagine Healey or Farr-Jones doing the same?

quote: Doesn't worry me in the slightest.

It’s just a difference we have in outlook. I want those pulling on the red rose to truly belong to it and understand what wearing it means. Consider the Jones-Hughes thing – how Welsh is he? As Welsh as me!!! And then there is Howarth who is less Welsh than me but capped in double figures.

quote: Don't your read my posts? Australian-Zambian parents, came here when he was one!

Of course not – it would spoil most of my rants!

One parent eh? Dubious qualification then. Does he have an English grandparent? I’m sure the IRB will overlook that small matter of his Aussie caps if he wants to change.

quote: Certainly the Wallabies and the ABs socialise

There’s no big secret to it – we are a hemisphere apart. The English lads have good friends amongst the Celts and French and Vice Versa.

From what I hear most players try to avoid Umaga when he goes out? Gets a bit carried away at times?

quote: He's highly valued within the team.

So he should be. He’s nicely effective at clearing his man from the ruck if I recall. Even legally on occasion.

No I admit he is a good player, and I’m sure your reading of how he will be used is right. He will be facing Backy of course, who may be past his best but is still a handful for anyone.

quote: Talked about as a future Wallaby skipper.

The signs are there for sure. And the parallel with Kay is uncanny on that too!

quote: Nostrils clear?

Why what do you mean?

quote: I didn't think he was unkind about the Irish. It's worth going back and having a look at his assessments. He predicts an AB-Boks final, won by the ABs.

I will. I just found the English stuff silly frankly.

I will give him the benefit of Aus being at home but do be careful – unless you treat Ireland with total respect they can and will beat you in Dublin in November. When they click it can be quite devastating. It will not be the same team the ABs brushed aside in June.

And the final is totally wrong – Australia will figure and they will probably win. I don’t like it – but lets face it we all fear it (except your good self).

I’d rather see England-ABs as I might get a ticket then as all the Aussies try to flog them.

	26-09-2002 20:10									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Havak And the final is totally wrong – Australia will figure and they will probably win. I don’t like it – but lets face it we all fear it (except your good self).

I think we will have a good indication of the Wallabies chances of winning when we see the result of the european tour. I wouldnt pick them as winners just yet.

quote: I’d rather see England-ABs as I might get a ticket then as all the Aussies try to flog them.

That would be fantastic.

	26-09-2002 20:23									#172
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I'm not so much picking them as winners as pointing out how they seem to gather silver when it is important.

If they do win I'm sure it will be with dour defensive rugby like last time.

I honestly think Ireland may turn them over this November before England get the chance though - and that will make the RWC re-match in the Pool very interesting.

I haven't even checked if England and the ABs are in the correct parts of the draw to be able to meet. We would meet in the quarters if that diatribe writer is correct. But I think we will win our pool which might give us the ABs if we make the final.

It would indeed be nice

	27-09-2002 05:20									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Instant sadly. The occasional Latte from a packet too (don’t ask).

Post here as soon as you get into work. I'll whip up a bona fide latte and email it to you!

quote: As I think you know it’s residency that bugs me – and Vickerman is a case in point not being Australian in truth in any other way at all. At least Catt got in through parentage (as indeed will Horak if he can ever string a run together – awesome at times but scary at others – plays for London Irish)

I know we're going around in circles on this one but there's only one logical conclusion to your argument in a Vickerman case. If a chap's family ups and offs with him and his siblings to another country - and become citizens - when he's a dependent child, the chap can't/shouldn't represent that country? Sorry.

quote: Based on what you have said before if Glen Ella has tipped someone that is definitely one to watch. Hope he gets a proper run in a big game (in other words not Italy).

He won't, failing disasters. There are experienced back-ups in front of him - Whitaker at halfback, Flatley at 5/8 - and I expect he's along purely for the experience of being exposed to the atmosphere. He wouldn't even have met most of the squad.

From what I can gather, there's going to be a lot of experimentation against Argentina. I don't know whether Eddie's winding up Jeremy Paul, but he's saying he has plans to start the young hooker - Freier - against the Pumas. Mortlock is moving from the wing to outside centre (where he really belongs), Matt Rogers and Wendell Sailor will start - Rogers for Latham at fullback, I suspect - and David Lyons will also start. I'm not sure where they fit Matt Burke into that equation.

quote: He’s been largely anonymous since then. It’s a shame as he seems a nice lad (off the field!). I remarked how well he interviewed last touring season – he can take the mickey out of himself which is good – imagine Healey or Farr-Jones doing the same?

He's a terrific personality. Very dry. Great p*ss-taker, especially about himself. His background was Australian Rules and hadn't played rugby till he got to uni. He tells the story of arriving at Orientation Week at uni, checking out the sporting clubs on the noticeboard, discovering that the rugby club was offering a keg of beer to attract players - thus his sporting future was decided.

I have to say, for what it's worth, the current Wallaby squad posseses a highly developed wit, far superior to our other sporting outfits. I think it could have something to do with the fact that they're a very tight, united outfit without the factions and rifts that have split earlier Wallaby squads.

quote: One parent eh? Dubious qualification then. Does he have an English grandparent? I’m sure the IRB will overlook that small matter of his Aussie caps if he wants to change.

There's probably cannibalism somewhere back in George's ancestry, so tell your halfback to count his extremities before he leaves the field next time.

quote: From what I hear most players try to avoid Umaga when he goes out? Gets a bit carried away at times?

I'd certainly avoid him out - drunk or sober!

quote: I’d rather see England-ABs as I might get a ticket then as all the Aussies try to flog them.

With an England-ABs final, no prizes for guessing who the Australian crowd will be cheering for!

	27-09-2002 06:32									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I haven't even checked if England and the ABs are in the correct parts of the draw to be able to meet. We would meet in the quarters if that diatribe writer is correct. But I think we will win our pool which might give us the ABs if we make the final.

From what I can fathom, the diatribe writer is correct - if the ABs win their Pool and England come second in theirs, you meet the ABs in the first quarter-final.

Let's play "what if". If England wins their Pool, they play in the fourth quarter-final against the pool D runner-up. Pool D, the ABs apart, couldn't be more appropriately named - Wales, Canada, Europe 2, Repecharge 2. You'd have to assume England would win.

Thus England would meet meet the winner of the third quarter-final in the second semi-final. The third quarter-final should have involved Ireland (2nd to Australia in their Pool) and France (who should have won the Pool consisting of France, Scotland, Fiji, Japan, and Repechage 1 [probably another of the Pacific Island nations]). So it's more than likely England -v- France in the second semi-final.

This "what if England win their Pool" scenario is interesting. If they do, it will match the Boks against the ABs in the first quarter-final.

The second quarter-final, assuming Australia wins their Pool against Argentina, Europe 1, Europe 4 and Africa 1, will pit the Wallabies against whomever comes second to France in Pool B out of Scotland, Fiji, Japan and probably one of the other Pacific Island nations. It's not beyond reason that someone like Fiji could cause an upset in that Pool. Anyway, Australia should win.

Thus the first semi-final would be Australia -v- either the ABs or the Boks.

Followed by the second semi-final of a likely England -v- France.

Thus winning that Pool C is vitally important for both England and the Boks. Either way, it virtually guarantees a semi-final spot. If the Boks win the Pool, their quarter-final would be against either Wales or Europe 2 (or Canada). If they come second in the Pool, they run into the ABs.

Very, very interesting.

	27-09-2002 13:30									#175
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quote: Post here as soon as you get into work. I'll whip up a bona fide latte and email it to you!

If only you could.

quote: I know we're going around in circles on this one

It’s a fundamental point of view with me and I don’t expect to ever convert you. It goes beyond rugby with me. I have little time for people who change nationality unless they come from a country where they face persecution simply for their beliefs or ethnic background. People who change nationality on what seem to be whims, like all the silly Brits who become ‘Americans’ (mainly for tax avoidance – ssshh!), baffle the hell out of me. What rationale is there for being Aussie rather than Bok? Both countries have massive racism problems and poor economies after all?

Rogers at fullback would be an interesting choice I think – he has strength and pace and skills and could make the spot his own. Burke must be spitting chips. It makes sense to give Lyons a run out as well before the serious tests. How much of what Eddie is hinting is just mind games though? A little wasted on the Pumas perhaps as whatever team you field they will give you one hell of a physical test up front but I would expect your superior back division to tell (significantly) in the end. Remember the England B side beat them down there in June.

I think, from what little I have seen, I would love you to play Sailor at Twickenham. Can’t kick to save his life which should put your defence under some pressure.

quote: the rugby club was offering a keg of beer to attract players - thus his sporting future was decided

A cracking anecdote.

I hope he clicks on this tour or I suspect he may only be a cover player come RWC.

*cough* Do you think the refined wit of the squad might just have something to do with the fact they are successful too? The test of any team is their ability to remain united in adversity. What you need is a thumping (Cal and I have been agreeing on this for some time I suspect). The humiliation of Dublin last year actually helped strengthen the squad in the end for England, though it was painful at the time.

But as I say – humiliation in Dublin is not impossible for the Wallabies either.

quote: With an England-ABs final, no prizes for guessing who the Australian crowd will be cheering for!

Very kind of the generous Aussie sporting public to get behind the Poms.

After all, you yourself said the Aussie public backs the underdogs. You aren’t going to tell me that was wrong now are you?

I think the diatribes showed that there’s a hardcore of your countrymen who simply and irrationally hate the Poms at any cost? We don’t expect fair or even particularly polite treatment at your hands in the RWC so the lack of support won’t phase the players over much. Austin Healey has been appointed Diplomatic attaché to the RWC squad (as he may not make the team!).

Nice analysis of the RWC pools. It does make it a lot clearer why England and the Boks are in the “pool of death” doesn’t it. I honestly think we can surprise the pundits down there – one moderate season of tri-nations has not equipped the Boks to leapfrog us again – they have struggled against us ever since our forwards started to totally neuter their pack and I suspect they will struggle for possession again in November.

By the way you have me in a very difficult position you know. The game is televised tomorrow and I will be forced to support Bath. You simply do not know what you have forced me into there. It's almost unthinkable.

	27-09-2002 14:21									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Havak If only you could.

Mmmm. On second thoughts, it would probably spill via email. How about international courier? It should be waiting for you on your desk on Monday morning.

quote: It’s a fundamental point of view with me and I don’t expect to ever convert you. It goes beyond rugby with me. I have little time for people who change nationality unless they come from a country where they face persecution simply for their beliefs or ethnic background. People who change nationality on what seem to be whims, like all the silly Brits who become ‘Americans’ (mainly for tax avoidance – ssshh!), baffle the hell out of me. What rationale is there for being Aussie rather than Bok? Both countries have massive racism problems and poor economies after all?

Oh well. I suppose there are some who do it on a whim but I think most would have some valid reason. We should probably let this one go through to the keeper.

quote: Rogers at fullback would be an interesting choice I think – he has strength and pace and skills and could make the spot his own.

He's a very skilled player. Some are saying that Latham was lucky to make the trip. There's a bit of a whispering campaign against him - his judgement is suspect, he's too often out of position. I suspect the whisperers were cheering him on earlier in the season.

quote: Burke must be spitting chips.

He could be a bit stiff. He was a good fullback, he's done nothing wrong at centre. OTOH, I'd rather have him kicking for goal for my life than Stirling Mortlock.

quote: How much of what Eddie is hinting is just mind games though? A little wasted on the Pumas perhaps as whatever team you field they will give you one hell of a physical test up front but I would expect your superior back division to tell (significantly) in the end. Remember the England B side beat them down there in June.

I think they're certainly going to use the Pumas to try out a few things. Rogers is too talented to keep coming off the bench, as is Lyons, and Mortlock's spot is in the centres. Organising all that is going to mean some serious rearrangement.

quote: I think, from what little I have seen, I would love you to play Sailor at Twickenham. Can’t kick to save his life which should put your defence under some pressure.

Frankly, I wish he'd go back to L*****. He's a superb athlete, and that's it.

quote: *cough* Do you think the refined wit of the squad might just have something to do with the fact they are successful too?

No, I'm talking about the personalities involved.

quote: Very kind of the generous Aussie sporting public to get behind the Poms. After all, you yourself said the Aussie public backs the underdogs. You aren’t going to tell me that was wrong now are you?

I'm glad you laughed out loud. We do draw the line somewhere!

quote: By the way you have me in a very difficult position you know. The game is televised tomorrow and I will be forced to support Bath. You simply do not know what you have forced me into there. It's almost unthinkable.

Actually, I've got a hard night of FoxSports ahead of me tonight flicking between Australia -v- Sri Lanka in that meaningless 1-day comp, and the Ryder Cup, where I'm obviously barracking for GB&E, providing Monty loses every match and breaks his fat, miserable, whingeing leg along the way.

	27-09-2002 15:09									#177
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quote: It should be waiting for you on your desk on Monday morning.

Will it still be hot?

quote: his judgement is suspect, he's too often out of position. I suspect the whisperers were cheering him on earlier in the season.

How often do you see it – one iffy game and the vultures are circling. Sometimes even a pundit comment can start the whispering campaign. Poido and Barnesy with that kind of power – scary!

I thought Latham was solid – no player has perfect judgement and show me any fullback who is in perfect position every single time? You have to be realistic really don’t you – I hope he proves the whisperers wrong (just not at HQ okay?).

quote: No, I'm talking about the personalities involved.

Okay. Bit intrigued given both Gregan and Burke at least are hardly known for their diplomacy.

Sailor reminds me of Henry Paul – superbly fit but pretty useless in competition for the ball, devastating in space if he gets it? That kind of thing. I don’t think these League types realise how different it is when teams have to compete for possession physically.

quote: I'm glad you laughed out loud. We do draw the line somewhere!

Well don’t be shocked – but I think maybe 99% of Englishmen will support whatever team the Wallabies are playing against too.

I take it you don’t like Monty then?

All I am watching the Ryder cup for is how the Yanks behave if the Europeans do anything anywhere near as un-sporting as they did last time. My bet is they will scream “blue-murder”.

I’m hoping to catch some of the NPC match tomorrow with Tigers away, and will then watch Bath-Tractooor boooys whilst listening to Tigers-Bristol in the affo.

Not a bad Saturday ahead.

	27-09-2002 15:47									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Will it still be hot?

Kerrrrr-iiiiiiii-sssssst! Who's hard to please around here?

quote: Okay. Bit intrigued given both Gregan and Burke at least are hardly known for their diplomacy.

Of course they can. But they still have well developed senses of humour.

quote: Sailor reminds me of Henry Paul – superbly fit but pretty useless in competition for the ball, devastating in space if he gets it? That kind of thing. I don’t think these League types realise how different it is when teams have to compete for possession physically.

How odd. Princess Fruit Loop's driver sounds the spitting image of Wendell. Wendell's problem is that he'd played next to no rugby in his life. And it doesn't come naturally as it does to some. Matt Rogers did play rugby at school, not a lot beyond, but it comes naturally. I also suspect Wendell's not awfully bright.

quote: I take it you don’t like Monty then?

Fat miserable whingeing Scot whose first act when something goes wrong is to blame someone else. He also fades the ball!

quote: All I am watching the Ryder cup for is how the Yanks behave if the Europeans do anything anywhere near as un-sporting as they did last time. My bet is they will scream “blue-murder”.

There was some unpleasant cheering when Paul Azinger knocked it miles off the fairway off the first tee after changing clubs on the tee. Europe is currently up in 3 out of the 4 four balls. They're doing well.

Edit. Update! 3 of the 4 4-balls completed, Europe leads USA 3-0!

quote: I’m hoping to catch some of the NPC match tomorrow with Tigers away, and will then watch Bath-Tractooor boooys whilst listening to Tigers-Bristol in the affo. Not a bad Saturday ahead.

Mrs Havak's out shopping?

	27-09-2002 17:27									#179
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quote: Kerrrrr-iiiiiiii-sssssst! Who's hard to please around here?

Most of us probably.

But in terms of rugby? Myself and Tamerlin are having a rough ride with our sides right now that’s for sure.

quote: they still have well developed senses of humour.

I think the vast majority of players do. Even Austin can be self-depreciating if caught in the correct mood. And my mate Jonno may look dour but he cracks the odd smile now and then.

quote: I also suspect Wendell's not awfully bright.

I’ve got no feel for our chaps IQ, but it is true Union is the thinking mans code. Put that in your pipe (as usually hidden under your flat cap) and smoke it pseudo-rugby fans.

quote: Fat miserable whingeing Scot whose first act when something goes wrong is to blame someone else. He also fades the ball!

Take the ‘Fat’ off the start and you have the perfect description of every Scot who has ever watched an English team play at any sport.

quote: There was some unpleasant cheering…

Sadly it was inevitable after their shameful nonsense last time out. I’m disappointed, the best way we could have responded was to show the decorum they lacked.

Mind you we led right up to the end last time so no chicken counting from me.

quote: Mrs Havak's out shopping?

Now then are you trying to get me to say it will be a good Saturday because of this? Wicked Finbar. And not very likely of me as she has access to my home PCs, the most perfect woman in the world that she is.

But she is English and female, therefore Saturday = shopping.

Mind you both she and my entire family long ago realised you leave Havak alone when rugger is on the agenda.

	27-09-2002 18:32									#180
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Great witty riposte from you two.

I taped Otago v Wellington last night, so I look forward to watching that tonight. I will probably be cheering for Wellington just because they are a North Island side. Also if Otago have a poor game that could bode well for Auckland who they are playing next week.