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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
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I don't have access to the screenies here, but keep in mind that what is for us a good position doesn't mean it will be good for them. Settling too close to the mountains can have serious military consequences, certainly when you more or less know it will be the border.
Also: if their second city is also producing a settler, there is a possibility that Vox has 2 settlers ready in a few turns: 1 from the capital, the other from the second city. If they didn't have food bonuses on their plains, they shouldn't be so quick, but it could be true. So, they don't need to backfill: their first city can come at the Isthmus, the second at the edge of the jungle, and the third can more or less reach the wheat and fish (if they spread their cities out). Fastest eta on that third city is over 25 turns, so we've got some time to settle things ourselves. But, as we don't have a road to there, and they have, we will lose quite a bit of our advantage.
Re: telling Vox the next deal will be ready in 2 turns (was it in this thread? Don't remember where I read the comment, it belongs here anyway): No, as long we don't need their tech for our research, I would wait one or 2 turns, and only say it then. They should not have a precise idea of where our research is, if they know it within 2 tursn precise it's more then enough.
DeepO
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:24
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Proposed message to Vox, to be sent after we play our turn:
quote:
Greetings BetaHound and Vox Controli,
At long last, the time has come for the second part of our technological exchange. Our scholars have worked out the basic shape of the letters of our new alphabet, and while they would keep fiddling around with the last few details forever if we let them (you know how scholars can be), we have told them that they need to move on to other tasks. (What good is an alphabet, after all, if they don’t figure out how to use it to write?)
We are still just short of a point where we could present a formal offer of Alphabet through the Interface of the Mystic Game, but if you could initiate the agreement by offering Iron Working on your end of the Interface, I feel confident that we will be able to present Alphabet on our end immediately after. Then, once you indicate to the Interface that you accept the deal, the first major trade agreement between our peoples will be brought to a successful conclusion.
Speaking of Writing, our people would be very interested in some sort of additional trade agreement once we learn that skill. Our fondest wish is to gain full diplomatic contact with other nations, and our people are ready to offer a proposal in that regard. Once our researchers finish learning how to write, we would offer you that knowledge in exchange for helping us to establish formal contact with your immediate neighbor plus some minor, far less valuable technology that you have researched. You would benefit from an exchange of knowledge on terms highly favorable to you, and we would benefit by obtaining contact beyond your borders more quickly than would be possible otherwise. (For that matter, once you learn how to write, you may also be able to arrange contact with more distant nations.)
If we arrange such an agreement, however, we would like it to include “patent” protection (as our first lawyers contemplate calling it when they someday write their Code of Laws) on the technologies involved. Under the concept of a “patent,” each side would retain an exclusive right to sell or trade the technology it researched for some limited time, say twenty turns, after the exchange is completed.
There is no need for urgency in working out the details of an agreement involving Writing, since our Writing project is not expected to be finished quickly. But it seems prudent to go ahead and let you know what we are thinking in order to reduce the risk of duplication of research efforts. Please consider our proposal and let us know what you think when you get a chance.
While I am writing anyhow (and given your fondness for the number One), there are some other matters that seem worth addressing. First we have still not established who the other nation you have formally met is. Last we heard, you were asking them for consent for you to tell us their identities, and we remain understandably curious.
Second, although you have told us about the lands you call North Estonia, you have indicated that there is a third part of the land mass connected to North Estonia. Our cartographers remain highly curious about that land, and as I indicated earlier (although it may have gotten lost amidst the flood of more urgent issues), it would be easier to determine what should be regarded as fair eventual borders between our peoples if we knew more about those other lands.
And third, the road you are building near Lookout Ridge (as we call the mountain Grog is using as his observation post) has raised some eyebrows among our people. There are those who fear (as much as it embarrasses me to say so), that even in spite of your words of peace, you are building it as a route through which to invade us. My own thought is that you are perhaps preparing the way to build a city northeast of Lookout Ridge, but it would set certain people’s minds at ease if you would tell us of your intentions. As Wisdom 4:7 says, “Ignorance breeds fear, but the fruit of knowledge is hope.”
These are all the matters I can think of at this time, and anything I have forgotten should be able to keep for a while longer. My best wishes for your health, and for that of your nation.
Sincerely,
The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist |
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
Good message, although I'm not certain about the trade deal right now...
Further, patents? Of course, you can try, but I don't think they'll go for it, certainly not for 20 turns.
Last comment: they haven't said that the Civ X's territory is connected, or just an island visible from our continent. You ask about the connected piece of land... wouldn't it be best to start asking if they can be reached on foot, and only then ask for specific geo-info?
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BetaHound's message describing their land mass included the words, "And lastly, it connects to another landmass to the east." Either he got his wording wrong, or there's something else connected up there.
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:24
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I really like the patent idea- nothing brings people together more than sharing something others can't have. This will help build trust, which is to my suprise, seems to be built, at least between Nathan and Betahound.
But the one thing that concers me right now is that roading effort by Vox, and beyond that, the race for territory. Vox might be using a maximum spacing pattern of city placement to grab whatever territory is available, if that is what they are up to with this road.
I can think of two ways they see this course of action (wide space between cities:
1) they concluded that "fairly" placing cities, making an effort to maximize the output of their cities, and so forth, just won't go, so they are taking they're shot at denying us as much territory as possible, hoping that by some miracle we fail to take advantage of our position, and by the time our economy is geared up, they have entrenched themselves in key positions and are cranking up Immortals.
2)They believe that we are tuned for economic development, and are not concerning ourselves with going for war, so they think that as long as they cooperate with us- in tech deals and so forth, we will not attack, nor complain or try to hurt their colonization effort, so they allow themsleves to disperse their cities without fear.
I know #2 is more like an explanation of #1, but i thought i should split those, because each of them means something different for us, if #1 is what drives them- then let them try it, they will find, that unfortunately, we will be ready for conflict sooner, and that they will be the ones to be caught off guard.
But, if they think we are doing what we can to avoid war- as a way of life (or "play", to be accurate), while our actions supports this kind of thinking, we should consider making our moves of warmongering more secretly, and deal with them swiftly and quickly.
I don't know what drives them, but whatever they are up to, i think now the ball is in our court (there is such expression in english, right?  ), we can out pace them, and also out build them militarily. We should try to find what is that they think, that drives them to road and possibly settle a far city, relatively exposed. I would suggest an earlier war if this is what they are pulling.
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:24
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With the infamous "Bullshit" communique, I think that our future with Vox becomes fairly well defined.
I find it hard to believe that the Vox team approved those letters... it indicates to me that they are more or less unstable, and will not be a good long-term trading / research partner (as well as continuing to be idiots when it comes to communicating their position and weaknesses).
In the short term, however, we need to ask ourselves what we REALLY want of them, and what we are willing to risk in exchange.
I say we do whatever is necessary, up to and including completely humiliating ourselves (whatever that means), in order to get Iron Working and in-game contact with the other civ. They want to settle towns above the Spinebreakers? Fine... we'll deal with that later. Even if they settle everything above the jungle, they'll have what, 5-7 towns total? And we'll have 12-15?
Deal with them for now, and take appropriate defensive measures while we oh-so-peacefully build and expand... but as far as I'm concerned Vox just signed its own death warrant.
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Dominae
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Could someone clarify for me precisely what Vox is angry about? Do they think we're researching Mysticism or something and are not planning to give them Alphabet?
If Sir Ralph is right about the timing on IW, then their lies are a cause for us to get mad, for sure. But what what's their problem?
Dominae
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Dominae
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I think I get it now (sorry, long day of homework): they think we traded for Alphabet instead of researching it ourselves.
Why can we not just tell them the truth (as asleepathewheel suggested)? This proves to them that we're more powerful (a good thing), and make them feel stupid for not trusting us (another good thing).
Dominae
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
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Very interesting diplomatic things, the ambassador in me is have a great time!
First of all, I don't consider this last message surprising at all, I can imagine that Vox is at least as worried what our motives are concerned as we are about theirs. We should make a clear message to them as to what our intentions are, and what we would allow. point per point, try to cover all the points we need answers on, and on which we're going to answer to.
Sir Ralph, some comments:
1. I don't know if this is still exact. Indeed, according to our analysis, they have IW already... but how certain are we of the method used? I thought I saw in my last PTW game that the beakers needed for a tech dropped, while I'm very certain that none of the civs I knew had the tech already.
So, why not offer them the following deal:
"Vox, our analists have come up with ways to measure the tech level of our neighbours, and we genuinely thought you had IW already, for a few turns now. Our methods were always reliable up to now, so your latest remarks on the progress of your research have raised more then a few eyebrows around here. The trust we have put in so far, after our less then ideal start is questioned again... maybe you can teach our analysists wrong, but it's doubtful.
We migth be able to teach you how to assess your neighbours general tech level, but of course such a advanced analysis technology comes at a price."
2. If they are lying, indeed this is outright betrayal. But for now, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, and blame it on ignorance. But to voice my opinion: Vox can live for as long as it is good for us, but they will be the first to go.
3. Interesting idea. screenshot of the F4 is ok by me, F8 needs a bit more thinking. I would certainly go for a trade of the F8 screen, but we might come up with a deal that lets us see the relative strentgth of Civ X, while not showing their colours or name.
4. We need to do some explanation of the research pace, we don't give anything away here. River + large city, if they can't believe that, they need to play more Civ.
Further, I would stress with them to rethink our importance to them: we obviously can research a lot faster then them (speed which will only increase), so they are good to have such a partner. It is unlikely that any other partner can help them now against us, if they would double cross us.
5. Agree. As said above, Vox will only live as long as it doesn't hamper our expansion.
6. We need to teach those Voxians some strats, if we don't want to have to clean up the mess afterwards. First of all:
"we have been monitoring your progress close by (as you seem to try, reaching the wrong conclusions), and we have a question of ourselves. You say you have food-poor territory, and yet your capital grows just like a normal city does. Are you lying to us? You say you haven't got a river, but do you have a lake, or another source of fresh water nearby? Are you having food bonusses, like wine, game, cows etc?
Having a normal growth rate, while telling us you mostly have plains and hills is not really honest to us. We have given you a detailed, correct map of our surroundings, which included telling you of floodplains and a river near our capital. Of course we use that to get the most research possible, simple testing would tell you exactly how much our research capability is. We did not deceive you, but are you deceiving us?
So, a simple question, and maybe something to think about:
Do you have access to fresh water, which you will need to grow? You recent sprint South seems to indicate not. But this too, could be a deception.
If you don't have water, we might be able to deal for it, we have water, not plenty, but enough for the both of us. We maybe can bring it to you, but this will require a serious, joint commitment, and a far better relation then we have now."
7. Spacing lessons, part 1.
" Part of the reason why we are doing well, is that many of our people have mastered the art of city planning. You said you have 30 tiles in North Estonia, in our territory, 30 ground tiles are enough to provide enough for 5 cities. True, we have recently settled our 3 city, but that doesn't mean we are wasting space here. We don't want to rush for the valley above the spine breaker mountains, as it will leave both our nations less developed as they could be. So please take this advice: closer cities mean more cities. Don't waste our space by building them 4 tiles apart. We don't like that.
Having said that, it is obvious to us that you need to expand, just as much as we do. Don't worry, we are not going to settle near the isthmus soon, it would leave us with a completely corrupt, undefendable city. We are no fools... while we are not formerly acknowledging it, the grass above the jungle looks more suited for you. However, don't abuse that space: your road already reaches to 8-10 city sites, going any further at this point makes it a military road, and not a settler road. We have roads of our own, but they do not point directly at the hart of your empire."
DeepO
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
1 - They lie, according to the beaker analysis they already had IW the turn we discovered Alphabet. We should let them know that we know this.
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Question:
Does the tech cheapen when a civ we haven't met discovers it?
I cant remember how it worked.
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21-01-2003 14:03
AHH!! It's a muppet on drugs!
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