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alva
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Republic of Flanders
Sep 2001
time: 06:24
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quote:
If we go back and say, "hey something came up, so we settled another city down there," when we'd planned to settle the city all along, we're lying.
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Then we should tell them, that are planning on taking them out someday too, no matter what happens.
If we say there is room for 3 cities, then in my opinion we are not lying. In game terms, there IS only room for that many cities.
We decided to put in one or two more*, which if this game would last until 2050 could hamper us later in the game.
We just elected to go for early power on the premise that we will never see the modern ages, hence the close city spacing.
* Where it was debated that one would eventually be abandoned
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:24
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Proposed response to Vox:
quote:
Greetings BetaHound and Vox Controli,
I regret to inform you that I have contracted a disease known as "real life," and that my physicians will not permit me to put the time into this message and its related issues that I would really like to. I hope you can understand my situation.
I fear that if you want us to reach a consensus to commit to a permanent peace within the time available for this trade deal, you want the impossible. Your earlier actions have stirred up more than a little mistrust, resentment, and even anger among some of our leaders (indeed, probably among all of us to varying degrees), and those wounds will require a combination of time and positive experiences between our peoples before they can fully heal.
That said, however, we of Gathering Storm can guarantee you of two things. First, it is our great hope to avoid even the hint of warfare for a long time to come. We have far too much to do settling cities and building infrastructure to want to waste our resources fighting.
And second, our interest in obtaining Iron Working so early is purely defensive in nature. Were it not for defensive concerns, especially concerns about the power of your immortals, our focus would be entirely on peaceful lines of research. But you do have immortals (or at least the basic technology needed to build them), and in light of the recent tensions, we regard the ability to build swordsmen as an important counterweight.
(If you would feel more comfortable with some specific duration attached to our promise of peace, that could be arranged as long as the duration is reasonable and there are reasonable protections for each side's legitimate interests. But durations imply endings, and I much prefer to view this as merely a beginning.)
We should also point out that contrary to what some among you seem to think, your rejection of our proposal would make little difference in when we learn how to work iron. It is ultimately the peaceful technology, not the military one, that you would cause a major delay to if you reject this proposal. And in the process, you would pass over both a valuable economic opportunity and an opportunity to replace the recent tensions with a clear positive element in our relationship.
In regard to your request that we withdraw our warriors, we would like to propose a different idea. We have long valued the assurances Grog can provide that no Vox Controli army (aside from your two scouts) is anywhere near our territory. If you have any similar concerns regarding us, I imagine you would appreciate similar assurances from the eyes of your own units. We therefore propose that Grog remain where he is for the time being, and that you move Willy "9" and Tim "6-3" (using the Language of the Keys) from their positions as of when we took our turn. Slash can fall back to a less potentially threatening position. That would give each of us early warning should the other attempt a betrayal. (In the words of certain wise men, "Trust, but verify.") We further assure you that this arrangement puts Tim at least as close to our capital as Grog will be to yours, so the warning times on each side will be comparable. The lookouts on both sides would, of course, fall back as the two nations expand.
I know that this does not give you all of the assurances that you might have wanted, but I hope you can recognize that the the tensions caused by your recent actions will require some time to heal. We honestly feel that this trade proposal is in the interest of both our nations, and we hope you can recognize that mutual interest also.
We need to know whether these assurances are sufficient for you to accept our proposal, and we need to know quickly. Otherwise, the opportunity will be lost.
Sincerely,
The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist
P.S. You raised some other issues in your previous post, but I fear that I have no time to address them at present. I will do so soon, however. |
Last edited by nbarclay on 11-01-2003 at 18:33
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
Building cities near someone else's core sounds like a better way to slow us down than to slow them down. Looking like a threat would very likely hurt our trade partnership, and hence our standing relative to teams other than Vox, and would (at least this early) either slow us down too or leave us vulnerable. |
Hey, you asked if there was any way to non-obviously hamper another team's growth. To me, these as the two best options. This should tell you that there are no "good" ways of doing this; even the average player will know when they're not expanding fast enough, and probably why too.
Dominae
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
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Ah, indeed, but I don't want that. if they want, they can have additional workers down that path... I look at it from our side: it is a serious gift if we are going to supply water to them, for which they will pay dearly, by giving us slaves. We OTOH aren't completely wihtout interest here, hence our proposal to add one worker to each 2 slaves they give us.
Of course, they can add on top of that by doing some of the clearing work for us, but as it will possibly not be in our interest (they would be clearing their future land), it would not be a good deal for us. No slaves is no water.
DeepO
(I'll take it to the separate thread, don't reply me here)
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:24
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Here's a proposed message telling Vox about our territory. Does this sound accurate and reasonable? (If we're trying to build trust, we probably don't want to skimp too much on information.) Note especially, do we want to make the offer of trading minimaps that I include in the last paragraph?
quote:
Greetings BetaHound and Vox Controli,
I did not think to say it in my earlier message, but thank you very much for the information you have provided us. As I watch events unfold in our councils, your new openness seems to be doing even more to undo the damage from our earlier tensions than I had hoped for. Indeed, Sir Ralph, our glorious leader, has gone from being one of our leading skeptics to being willing to trust that you will accept our trade proposal without waiting for an additional response from you. We can only hope that his faith will not be disappointed.
In regard to your interest in the geography of South Estonia, Tim is on the north end of what we call the Spinebreaker Mountains and Willy has entered what we call the Desert of Tears. Waters from the Spinebreaker Mountains come together to form a river we call the Flood of Tears, which borders the western edge of the desert. (By the way, we may someday be able to arrange an irrigation project to your lands if you are completely without fresh water for irrigation. Of course the scale of such a project is far beyond what would be practical until our nations are larger and more prosperous.)
South of the desert is a band of plains generally two tiles from north to south. Eye of the Storm is founded as the River of Tears enters this band, and has the mixed blessing of access to flood plains that may help it grow or die as the Generator of Fortune sees fit. Our second city, Hurricane, overlaps our capital next to where the river empties into the ocean. South of the plains, as the land narrows toward its southern tip, we have a region of grassland small enough that a single city could cover more than two thirds of it (although good use of coast can stretch its use farther).
On the western side of the continent, Tim has seen essentially all of the grasslands and forests that the area he is in has to offer. The rest is almost all hills, mountains, and a coastal desert, until a few tiles south of Willy’s latitude where the strip of plains reaches that coast. At its widest, the land stretches less than a tile west of what Tim has seen, and the land narrows to the south before reaching the band of plains.
We hope your cartographers can make good use of this description in developing at least a rough sketch of South Estonia. It is only too bad they do not yet have the skill to develop true maps.
Speaking of cartography, there is still an area of the continent that we have been left in the dark regarding. Just as North Estonia and South Estonia are separated by an isthmus and yet are, in a sense, part of the same continent, it would seem that so too is another land that you say is connected to North Estonia. We would greatly appreciate whatever information you can provide about that land, and would find it difficult to determine what should be regarded as fair borders without knowing more about that region.
There is one other matter that is puzzling our cartographers (and the rest of us too, for that matter). You referred in your message to the “Sierra Centralis.” Your only explanation of that term was as the mountains to your explorers’ north. Some think you may be referring to the northern end of what we call the Spinebreaker Mountains (of which even the northernmost ridge is closer to our capital than to yours), while others think you are referring to other mountains farther north. If you would clarify exactly which mountains you are referring to, it would be appreciated.
By the way, although the making of full maps is beyond us, our cartographers do have sufficient skill to make a more limited form of map that for some reason they call a “minimap.” (Perhaps they do so because it offers only minimal information compared with the kinds of maps they would truly like to be able to make.) If your cartographers have a similar ability, we might be able to arrange an exchange of such minimaps to gain a more complete picture of the continent than words alone can provide.
Sincerely,
The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist |
Last edited by nbarclay on 12-01-2003 at 16:21
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11-01-2003 08:36
Very good response nbarclay, particularly the part about how in light of their previous actions, they must provide us with positive experience before we can really trust them.
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