10-01-2003 23:40									#211
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I think letting them open negotiations by asking them what they would offer would be bad practice. Furthermore, I think we should open negotiations with demands for a certain amount of gold or a certain tech and two slaves and only go as far as lowering our demands to one slave, which we will promise to return to Vox as soon as he completes his job.
I agree that we should irrigate as far as the jungle and then allow them to join in the work.

	10-01-2003 23:50									#212
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Why return any slaves? I love the deal, but they should be able to build other workers...

I would offer something like this: For every 2 slaves you give us, we will add one worker of our own. That pack starts clearing jungle, building road, and laying down irrigation to your city at the fastest possible path. You can choose how fast this will be by giving us more slaves (can also be done when irrigation is already in progress). After completion, we are free to do with the slaves as we please. Maybe we'll sell them back to you, maybe we'll add them to one of our cities. Maybe we'll keep them around as trophies

Now, if they can sweeten the deal on another front, we can consider pairing one of our workers with only 1 slave. But we should try to assess how many turns it is going to take, and use that as part of the negotations.

DeepO

	10-01-2003 23:51									#213
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Arrian, other thought: what if Civ X can give them water faster?

DeepO

	11-01-2003 00:06									#214
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It's worth a try, let's be non specific about it and see what their response is.

	11-01-2003 00:16									#215
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Did any of you read their last note carefully?

They claim all the land till the "Sierra Centralis". With this is most likely meant the northern part of the Spinebreaker mountains, and hardly the few hills around the Neck of Fate. And they demand us to withdraw our explorers (Grog and Slash) too. Their claim is completely inacceptable. Our diplomats should send a note about this.

	11-01-2003 00:33									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Did any of you read their last note carefully? They claim all the land till the "Sierra Centralis". With this is most likely meant the northern part of the Spinebreaker mountains, and hardly the few hills around the Neck of Fate. And they demand us to withdraw our explorers (Grog and Slash) too. Their claim is completely inacceptable. Our diplomats should send a note about this.

In the last turn thread, I suggested a counterproposal that each side maintain forward observers so we can be sure each other's military forces are a long way away from us. Our demanding to keep troops near their border without allowing theirs near ours would be no more reasonable than having them keep exploring while blocking us - something they finally (albeit a little later than we would have liked) decided to agree to stop doing.

I also don't see how we could justify demanding that they not expand south for as long as land is available, given how little decent land they say they have north of the chokepoint. If we don't want to be guilty of tricks at least as nasty and empty of honor as anything we were afraid they might do to us, our proper course is simply to out-REX them and try to settle as much land as possible before a border forms naturally as all available, reasonably productive land is claimed. (We might, however, push the idea of fairly tight city spacing on their side too so they don't end up consuming an amount of land totally disproportionate to the number of cities they build.)

Nathan

	11-01-2003 00:59									#217
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That, assuming that what they told us about their land is true.
They may well be lying. They could count on the fact that we'll never actually see their land until we either invade it (by then it won't matter how much trust is between us and Vox) or get the map from someone else (which may take a very long time, and when the moment comes it won't matter anymore if they made a few "exaggerations" regarding the nature of their home territory).

	11-01-2003 01:16									#218
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I think they speak the truth. All signs we saw so far prove this. The time and place they met us (low distance to their cities from the isthmus), the fact that they finished to explore their own landmass so quick (small landmass) and the fact, that they grow not very quick (poor unfertile land). The only thing I don't understand is, that they obviously threw all their warriors to our side and left none at the "land bridge" to the other continent they mentioned.

	11-01-2003 01:23									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber That, assuming that what they told us about their land is true. They may well be lying. They could count on the fact that we'll never actually see their land until we either invade it (by then it won't matter how much trust is between us and Vox) or get the map from someone else (which may take a very long time, and when the moment comes it won't matter anymore if they made a few "exaggerations" regarding the nature of their home territory).

So what do you want to do, base our entire relationship with Vox on the assumption that they're lying to us?

When we get galleys, we can check their coastline and verify their claims, and if they've been lying, we have a perfect justification for going to war. In the meantime, our economy seems more than sufficient for us to be able to base our actions on the assumption that they're telling the truth.

Nathan

	11-01-2003 01:30									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I think they speak the truth. All signs we saw so far prove this. The time and place they met us (low distance to their cities from the isthmus), the fact that they finished to explore their own landmass so quick (small landmass) and the fact, that they grow not very quick (poor unfertile land). The only thing I don't understand is, that they obviously threw all their warriors to our side and left none at the "land bridge" to the other continent they mentioned.

That's the big question all right, and we'd do well to ask it as part of negotiating how our border with them will be determined.

I don't have time for more diplomatic work today, but I have some thoughts that have been stirring in my mind and I'll try to draft a proposal tomorrow (assuming I have the team's consent to continue in my position of special envoy until these initial issues are settled).

Nathan

	11-01-2003 01:53									#221
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I did notice the "Sierra Centralis" reference, and chose to ignore it for the time being. Let them build their city by "the neck" If we are forced to withdraw our warriors (due to them being in their new borders, we withdraw only as far as is absolutely necessary. Hopefully by then we can get a third warrior up their and still block them.

If they want our warriors moved so they can expand, let them ask.

-Arrian

	11-01-2003 02:09									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian If they want our warriors moved so they can expand, let them ask.

They've already asked, if you look at their message closely.

I'm thinking in terms of having both civs station lookouts on mountains near each other's borders so we can each have confidence that an invasion will be spotted well in advance, with the observers moving back as the civs grow. (And in the process, we could withdraw Slash to check out that last little bit of coast we haven't explored yet, since one warrior is sufficient for observation purposes. Hack and Ouch can keep watch on the Vox warriors who will be watching us, and we shouldn't be surprised if a Vox warrior wants to watch our observer.)

By the way, I should have said I don't have time for non-emergency diplomatic matters today; if an emergency comes up, I'll see if I can make time.

Nathan

	11-01-2003 02:32									#223
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But by building on 'our' side;

1. they have units 'patrolling' borders, that don't have to be warriors btw, if that hill holds iron... (perhaps they might even smuggle a few too their nearest city too us, we will not have a 16 tile/turn warning then)
2. they will be alot closer due to VOX building roads close to us.

-
Why should we give in first time, let them sit on it too, let them run after us trying to make a deal, let them offer us something. The last few turns we've almost had to beg them.

	11-01-2003 02:57									#224
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Yeah, let's stall them as much as possible, without being too obvious.

Containment, boys, containment (with a smiling face... call it "compassionate containment" [/G.W.B. reference]).

-Arrian

	11-01-2003 02:58									#225
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Question:

Which mountains are they claiming?
The northern most that we can see, just south of their isthmus?
The mountains south of the jungle?


Are we taking this seriously? I don't. Why should we allow them to settle our lands, whilst we sit on our hands, just because they said it first, even though we we physically there hundreds of years before them.

I think as soon as they can, they will rush us with immortals, I think this is inevitible. There is only one purpose of their unit, and that is war.

I would say that we need an alliance with the north (or east) to guard against them.

(paranoia strikes deep in the heartland)

	11-01-2003 03:25									#226
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The natural course of events in Civ is for nations to expand toward each other until they share a common border. It's a fact of life, and if we try to hem them in prematurely, we practically guarantee an early war on terrain where their immortals (assuming they will have access to iron) have a clear advantage.

Time is on our side because the longer EotS has to build settlers, the bigger our percentage advantage in number of cities will be and the more time our new cities will have to develop. So why not bow to the inevitable gracefully in the meantime and make it attractive for Vox to choose us, not their other neighbor, as their favored trading partner?

Nathan

	11-01-2003 03:30									#227
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay The natural course of events in Civ is for nations to expand toward each other until they share a common border. It's a fact of life, and if we try to hem them in prematurely, we practically guarantee an early war on terrain where their immortals (assuming they will have access to iron) have a clear advantage. Time is on our side because the longer EotS has to build settlers, the bigger our percentage advantage in number of cities will be and the more time our new cities will have to develop. So why not bow to the inevitable gracefully and make it attractive for Vox to choose us, not their other neighbor, as their favored trading partner? Nathan

Good points, prehaps if we are accommodating,they will look north for war first. But I just don't trust that bunch, they are the ones with the flash, right? The isthmus block does not help.

	11-01-2003 03:49									#228
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They strike me as opportunists. As such, their ultimate decision will not be based upon who is a nicer ally, but upon who is more vulnerable for attack.
Nbarclay got it right though: time is indeed on our side. We have a great starting location (best city in the world, man!) and the world's best economy and production, and the more time goes by, the greater the gap we open between us and Vox will be. We need to take advantage of that by stalling Vox's growth, though we need to be careful not to be too obvious (like Vox was when they babbled about the right to explore but kept blocking the Isthmus, or when Eli posted that thread on the strat forum). Eventually this will have little to no effect on their choices of enemies and allies.
Furthermore, if we stall them we might have a chance to meet Vox's other neighbor and probably sign an MPP or some other military (offensive or defensive) agreement with them against Vox, if we play our cards well, before war between Vox and us breaks out.

	11-01-2003 03:58									#229
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Actually, having them come out from behind the chokepoint could work to our advantage militarily. At the chokepoint, they can concentrate practically every military unit they have (or at least every unit they have on our front) in a single location. With a wider border, we could gain a greater advantage through concentration of force. And our war chariots' mobility, with a proper road network, would make it harder for Vox to get the same advantage in concentration of force attacking us.

Question (regarding Shiber's suggestion): how does one go about stalling a human player's expansion without being obvious?

Last edited by nbarclay on 11-01-2003 at 04:27

	11-01-2003 04:05									#230
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Question: how does one go about stalling a human player's expansion without being obvious?

Build cities close to their core in order to force them to waste time in transit. This is the least obvious way that I can think of, but it will be plenty obvious to the Voxians, given their knowledge of our continent.

Or, make them feel threatened (i.e. like war could break out anytime). Thus they spend more resources on military preparations, and less on growth. They probably would not see through this. But the problem is that they'll have a bunch of units ready, and may decide to attack us preemptively.


Dominae

	11-01-2003 05:05									#231
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Building cities near someone else's core sounds like a better way to slow us down than to slow them down. Looking like a threat would very likely hurt our trade partnership, and hence our standing relative to teams other than Vox, and would (at least this early) either slow us down too or leave us vulnerable.

	11-01-2003 06:19									#232
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quote: Good points, prehaps if we are accommodating,they will look north for war first. But I just don't trust that bunch,

I don't believe they will north (first)
1. they don't seem to think they have to protect that border!! (again, if there is to defend) which indicates to me, they have a better relationship with civ X then with us
2. They will realise we can expand faster then they do; something they would only be to happy to hamper.
3. They have Immortals, which could their best (and only?) chance to hurt us.
4. They will soon (enough) know we have nowhere to go but north, which leads us back to number 3
5. They are vox. j/k

quote: Actually, having them come out from behind the chokepoint could work to our advantage militarily.

true

quote: Time is on our side because the longer EotS has to build settlers,

Again, true

I don't think we should forbid them to settle beyond the isthmus, but we should try to slow them down as much as possible.

Btw; If we can settle can settle #12(beyond the mouintains/fish/wheat) and 1 city east from it, our 'bottleneck' is only two cities wide instead of having 3, maybe even 4 front/exposed cities.

	11-01-2003 06:51									#233
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We should definately start to plan our cities again, and which border we want to have with Vox. They can claim all the mountains they want, as long as we don't give it to them, it is not official. BTW, we only gave them the claim to the Isthmus if they would let us true, they didn't, so there is no 'owner' of that tile yet. Of course it will be Vox, but at this moment we haven't given it to them.

Sierra Centralis: if they want it, they are going to need to reach it first. I say we do not move our half-block, unless we see both their scouts retreating. Or, they ask it. I would move a little out of the way, but the advantage now is that we don't really block them, but can do so whenever we please. If a settler wants to pass, I suggest that we at least delay them by one turn (under the disguise that we need to make sure our warriors aren't captured in Vox territory). They stalled us enough.

I do think it is a good thing to warn them that space is very limited, and we are building cities very close, they should do the same. OTOH, as long as they don't start putting ridicous cities down, I don't care. Vox is still going to be toast, and once that happens, we can raze and rebuild to our likings. We need the production to do so, but we will outexpand them.

Re: defense from Civ X: notice that RPG said in their last message that Vox was rumoured to be on another continent, which could be seen from their continent. It would explain everything: why Vox has only met one other Civ, why they need no defense, why they are aggressive to us only (also in scouting).

DeepO

	11-01-2003 07:10									#234
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Didn't they say/mention something about a very narrow landbridge to the east?

	11-01-2003 07:19									#235
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hmmm... you're right. But I don't get why they would call that "another landmass" instead of East Estonia. it doesn't make sense.

DeepO

	11-01-2003 07:26									#236
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Okay: other points. Vox asked us to give a description of our side of the continent. I would definately tell them we have water, and will have it covered soon enough, so that all of the river falls in our borders. That should be a good opening to a possible water deal. Other description of territory: not too much, but mentioning grass could be needed (at least don't tell them we are overflowing with food tiles!). Could be a way of telling them that city spacing is tight. What ever happens, downplay the size of our South, they do not ned to know that we can get 4 or 5 cities to the South of EotS

Further, they indeed ask us to withdraw to their Sierra, I would play dumb, and say there is but one lonely mountain near the neck on which 4 warriors can't fit. Once they start they intend the Spine, we say that that one mountain is obviously a far better demarcation line, as it is more or less half way between our two borders. If they are going to put scouts at just a few tiles from our capital, there is no reason we should move 10 tiles from their border.

DeepO

	11-01-2003 07:46									#237
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My current inclination is that South Estonia is significantly bigger than what they call North Estonia, and that if we are going to tell them about the entire, larger land mass (including areas they could not have gotten to without crossing our borders even if Tim and Willy had proceded), we want some information about the other land mass they're connected with in return. Otherwise, they are asking us to reveal considerably more information than they did.

Nathan

	11-01-2003 08:07									#238
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True... but we need to make some gesture of good will, so what about telling them that we are currently settling the only river on the continent? That seems to be quite a bit of information, and we could use it later on if we want to.

Further, maybe we can make some comment on having grass, or having plains too, not revealing any more then we need.

Oh, BTW: I wasn't counting exactly, but there is no way that they could be hoping to build their 3rd settler soon on non-irrigated plains, they haven't got enough food for that. So, either there is some grass available (which should be shielded to get anything near their production, they nearly follow us when it comes to their military strength), or they have some cows, wheat, game or wine on those plains. I don't think for one minute they have told us everything regarding their territory. And, as cutting forest would be the only way to get those kind of troops, that is or was present too. Forest on plains isn't my favorite tile though.

DeepO

	11-01-2003 08:24									#239
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[quote]they do not ned to know that we can get 4 or 5 cities to the South of EotS[quote]

On a normal use of 'city placement' IE 21 tiles, we don't have that much room anyway.
It's not that we are lying, we just happened to make a different strategic choice/gameplan (...in the future, hey something came up, so we settled another city down there)

	11-01-2003 08:28									#240
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quote: Originally posted by alva [quote]they do not ned to know that we can get 4 or 5 cities to the South of EotS[quote] On a normal use of 'city placement' IE 21 tiles, we don't have that much room anyway. It's not that we are lying, we just happened to make a different strategic choice/gameplan (...in the future, hey something came up, so we settled another city down there)

I thought we agreed not to tell outright lies.