13-01-2003 11:05									#271
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus So... I am happily surprised that the diplomats have brought us to this point. Kudos, and well done!! A tense situation resolved... But what have we learned? Vox is WEAK! What can we gain from them? Their current techs... and not much else, other than civ contacts. I don't mean to be a total warmonger, but they don;t seem much like an effective research partner to me, and they stand in the way of contact (i.e., cheaper techs)... AND, on top of their actions / attitude to date, remember that we face Immortals. Trade of all sorts is fine, and I value the benefits... but warfare must come.

I'd prefer to keep open the possibility of peace, if only so the ambassadorial staff can hold out hope to Vox without lying through our teeth. And it's even possible that we might find a better opening for warfare elsewhere if by some miracle we and Vox can get a solid partnership going to whatever extent they are able to contribute.

It would be more convenient if the war drums could be put on hold until we're ready to start direct preparations to launch an attack, which won't be for quite some time yet. (Not that we can't start doing things like building barracks and building up defensive forces that could also be converted to an offensive role when and if needed.)

Nathan

	13-01-2003 13:04									#272
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Glad that we finally know which mountains they are referring to, but its pretty ridiculous that we would pull back that far, it has to be much closer to our home than theirs, unless they are just out of view in the north. Would not suprise me if our explorers were faster than theirs, but by that much? I can't believe they would expect us to use that line to define the borders when we were across it much earlier than they. bah.


the sooner we take out these jokers the better, they are getting on my nerves, even though I'm only reading the discussions.

	13-01-2003 15:09									#273
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At first they probably assumed we had much more space behind our capitol. That could well be the reason they did cave in now.

Peace is the sollution for the moment IMHO, if nothing else, not being the first team to go to war (and eliminate someone?) will be good for foreign relations too.
The first will be marked for the duration of the game, people will remember that longer then the secong or thirs one who goes to war.

	14-01-2003 05:27									#274
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What the...
That last reply of Betahound sure is convincing. I'm not sure exactly what kind of message he wants to convey... does Vox has wines? If so, he's roleplaying it quite poorly.

DeepO

	14-01-2003 08:38									#275
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!!!???

In vino veritas?

If nothing else, he has given us an excellent metaphor:

The Thunderstorm

	14-01-2003 09:36									#276
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I've been assuming "Thud" is the Voxian translation of "Grog," unless Sir Ralph renamed a warrior without telling us.

No.

/EDIT: Oh darn, I by accident edited this post, instead of replying with quote... Sorry about this. --SR

	14-01-2003 09:44									#277
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Wine.

Hmm...

I'm thirsty.

	15-01-2003 03:11									#278
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The exchange of technology is inspiring optimism, as it should, and talks of letting Vox grow alongside us, as long as we feel unprepared for war are gaining a majority- as it seems from those who deny my suggestion to go for a blocking movement against Vox's inevitable southern expansion. with that said, i must say that i see this course of action (focusing on our immediate benefit from settling to the south) as one that with careful planning and wise diplomatic move could probably maintain growth momentum, keep earning us techs and securing our holdings with military power as well.
But, i think that some action towards the end of denying Vox of fertile land, and a stable foothold beyond the isthmus is necessary as well, and despite it's cost will bring us a tremendous advantage in the coming conflict- which you all realize going to come some day. This, IMO, can be achieved without jeprodizing our growth that much, and to thwart any threat from Vox (a real threat, like one that would come if we let them establish several cities deep into our territory).

	15-01-2003 03:45									#279
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Vox's economy would be a disaster area if they would try to "establish several cities deep into our territory" by the time we're finished REXing. Further, how would Vox hope to defend such cities? If they want to shoot themselves the foot like that, more power to them - for the moment.

Border areas like #12 are another matter, and how we should handle those depends on what we think Vox's intentions are. If we think they'll leave a city we found up there alone, or if we're willing to let Vox capture a city in exchange for blowing their GA (which they might use for additional troops and keep attacking), we're better off founding #12 early. Otherwise, we're better off founding it later.

	17-01-2003 05:20									#280
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Did we approve how far to the south they have explored?

	17-01-2003 06:40									#281
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Did we approve how far to the south they have explored?

I'm having a hard time figuring out where this question comes from. If you're talking about the flap a few turns ago, certainly not. If you're talking about their current behavior, their warriors are both actually fortified north of where I suggested they station them in return for their accepting Grog's remaining north as an observer.

	17-01-2003 07:23									#282
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Sorry, I was going from memory of the screenshot today, having deleted it.

That said, I'm still uncomfortable. As we build our towns, I still want to pay attention to creating defensive corridors east and west of the Spinebreakers.

	17-01-2003 16:45									#283
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Might i ask, what about their roading effort south of the isthmus, they carry on with it, having complete control on the land south of it and are status? one warrior standing on the mountain as an observer, while they practically can move their warriors just around it, and put some more of their "observers" along key point near our territory- while we allow ourselves to leave only one guard there, and send the other south for some non-urgent scouting of few coast tiles.

I think this is a serious risk we're taking, we are signaling the Vox that strategic strong points are unimportant for us, and that we are willing to make cmpromises on land issues without any demand on our part.

We can't let this coninue, Vox definitely doesn't appreciate our gestures of goodwill- they keep their roading effort- an obvious preparation for invasion, while we retreat our warriors, why?
return that one scouting the coast up there, and block their futher approach.

	17-01-2003 17:09									#284
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quote: Originally posted by zeit We can't let this coninue, Vox definitely doesn't appreciate our gestures of goodwill- they keep their roading effort- an obvious preparation for invasion, while we retreat our warriors, why?

I won't regard their actions as an "obvious preparation for invasion" until they start roading jungles, and if they want to build roads so our WC's can get through to attack them, I for one have no intention of complaining. Especially not when using a worker for that hinders their growth and productivity.

But my bet is that they're aiming to found their fourth city 9-9 from Grog's position, and their idea is to have the worker build a road there and then start improving the area. If they have as little land with a decent amount of food closer to home as they make it sound, that would hardly be an unreasonable move, especially with the two bonus grasslands there. Last I heard, the strategy of using workers to road to new city sites instead of keeping them busy around home was still considered a valid one, not that it's one I generally favor.

Nathan

	17-01-2003 17:46									#285
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You have a point.
I think we're all tense because we realize that the Voxians know that the best time for them to attack is during the late ancient age, but we can't be certain that they've decided to attack us. They have other neighbors, and they might have decided that we're too strong and are planning to attack a different team (RP maybe).

	17-01-2003 18:12									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber You have a point. I think we're all tense because we realize that the Voxians know that the best time for them to attack is during the late ancient age, but we can't be certain that they've decided to attack us. They have other neighbors, and they might have decided that we're too strong and are planning to attack a different team (RP maybe).

Attacking anyone but us would be extremely stupid of Vox unless they can secure an agreement from us not to attack them while they're doing it. They would have to commit a large percentage of their forces to have any realistic hope of success (and even then they'd probably need an ally), and such a commitment would leave them wide open to an attack from us.

The only time I'm really worried about is the next 20-30 turns. If Vox hits us before our production advantage really kicks into gear, things could get messy. After that, we'd still get hurt enough I'd rather delay fighting longer, but the balance should be tilted clearly in our favor.

Nathan

	17-01-2003 18:21									#287
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There could be something about the geographical features of the terrain between Vox and RP that could make them prefer to go for RP, or perhaps they have explored RP's territory and have decided that they're very weak. Or they could be just afraid of us because of the impression that we give in the F11 screen. People do stupid things when they're afraid.

Anyway, I agree regarding the next 20-30 turns period.

	17-01-2003 23:00									#288
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Didn't RP told us they were on a different continent all together?

Last edited by alva on 17-01-2003 at 23:21

	17-01-2003 23:06									#289
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Then how could they possibly have met Vox?
Anyway, I thought we've established already that RP was Civ X. IIRC they told us that they've met Vox... or was it another civ?
I'm too hyped up to think properly right now.

	17-01-2003 23:24									#290
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quote: GodKing wrote on 10-01-2003 00:25: DeepO; Vox is the one team we have not met, nor have we been able to open relations with them in any significant way. We have met Lux and GoW. Lego and ... I cannot remember their name (ND?), are close to us and we expect to make contact with both of them soon IIRC. You are on another continent. We have explored to our south and find an ocean between us. We have heard rumor that Vox is close enough to see, but is separated by water. Only rumor, so we have nothing to confirm with. Another civ is near Vox who is toward your NE we suspect.

	18-01-2003 00:19									#291
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Yeah... I mentioned that quote a few times in this thread already... plus before that I fantasized about being alone with Vox, with a 1 tile sea between ours and the next continent.

BTW, for them, it would be good to attack us the moment they can switch to another government, which would for me be al the more reason to try to get a deal for republic with them, preferably with them researching republic. Monarchy is closer, which makes it easier for them, the longer we can stall their possible attack, the less attractive it becomes for them.

DeepO

	18-01-2003 00:27									#292
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Blowing their GA while in anarchy would be a nice bonus

	18-01-2003 00:33									#293
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Keep on dreaming... the moment their scouts see us coming, they will switch to a government if they have a chance. So by the time we'll get there, they should be out of anarchy. And we most likely won't start a war before we have gov ourselves...

BTW on the colouring of that quote!

DeepO

	18-01-2003 00:55									#294
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My memory betrays me yet again.

	18-01-2003 00:57									#295
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Don't worry Shiber, it's friday

DeepO

	18-01-2003 01:12									#296
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A deal where Vox researches Republic and we plan to trade for it would be a disaster. For one thing, it would seriously slow down our change of governments because of the disparity in research rates. (Indeed, we might find ourselves the last civ to get Republic.) For another, it would give them an absolutely perfect opportunity to backstab us by backing out of the deal so they have an advanced government and we don't.

In regard to their seeing us coming, by the time they'd be ready to change governments, the civs' borders should be right up against each other. There won't be forward observers to warn of an impending attack.

	18-01-2003 01:22									#297
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quote: In regard to their seeing us coming, by the time they'd be ready to change governments, the civs' borders should be right up against each other. There won't be forward observers to warn of an impending attack.

Do you have a rough estimate on how many turns in the future we are talking here?

	18-01-2003 01:46									#298
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We're almost certainly more than 40 turns away from Republic even in the best possible scenario (research Writing, research Code of Laws, trade for both Philosophy and Literature), but I'm not sure how much more.

	18-01-2003 02:54									#299
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Trading for Lit will be probably be more expensive than the research cost of the tech would indicate, due to the fact that it allows the GL.

-Arrian

	18-01-2003 03:37									#300
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Trading for Lit will be probably be more expensive than the research cost of the tech would indicate, due to the fact that it allows the GL.

Maybe, maybe not. Courthouses and being closer to Republic are pretty valuable things too. And the possibility of prebuilds makes trying to delay someone else's starting a project such as the Great Library a lot less useful in MP than it is in SP. On the other hand, if a civ is within just a few turns of finished, it will probably guard Literature very jealously in case someone else might have a prebuild going.