26-01-2003 23:52									#181
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Thanks a good point Dissident.....The options are:

1. Trade Iron working for Alphabet with GS. (prior agreement)

2. Loan a city to Lux for Alphabet. (then Lux can just trade iron working to GS without our knowledge)

Simplifying the choices makes it rather clear.

I have to agree that we might as well trade GS iron working for alphabet, since either way, they will get iron working soon enough. Plus, it is what was agreed upon earlier - we shouldn't give the impression as a nation that goes against their word this early in the game...

	27-01-2003 00:01									#182
	Put an end to popups!

we should be able to get alphabet from lux another way

trading a city for it (even just a bit) would be horrid

we want to use our trading position to catch up

Lux will deal with GS instead of us if they can (We learn too slow)

Jon Miller

	27-01-2003 00:41									#183
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reply from GS

I've presented your message to the team, but here's my own, personal reaction. Our original arrangement was designed so that the first stage of the trade would give you a higher-value tech and the second would give us a higher-value tech so that the two exchanges would balance. Now you are asking for two consecutive exchanges where you end up with the higher value. Does that seem fair to you? It certainly doesn't to me - especially not when you sound like you want to then trade Writing to another civ to further enrich yourselves.

I'm willing to propose the following counter-offer to Gathering Storm:

(1) We go ahead with the Iron Working for Alphabet now. (That helps both of us compared with if you would make an exchange with our rival to your north (which I suspect is Lux)).

(2) When we get Writing, we trade it to you for whatever contacts with other civs you have at the time.

(3) We retain an exclusive right to trade Writing to other civs. Considering that compared with our original agreement, you will be getting Writing for nothing more than contact information, that does not seem like an unreasonable stipulation.

(4) You agree not to try to renegotiate the deal further, even if an opportunity comes up where you might be able to get a deal you like better on Writing elsewhere.

I don't know how my own team will react to this, and it's certainly not an official proposal yet, but I'll go ahead and bring it up with you at the same time I do with Gathering Storm so you folks can go ahead and start thinking about whether you would agree to it if we make it (or something similar) an official offer.

Nathan

quote:


I think that Beta expressed our concerns, but did so improperly. Looking over his messages, he told you where we would have been if we had not traded for Iron Working (With our close neighbors to the north). I must admit that we are somewhat worried about your nation, appearing to research so much faster than us and to be better located also. In any case, we just got Iron Working recently (which means that we could do our deal), but would rather get alphabet much much more cheaply from another source. Is there anyway we could get writing from you for ironworking? It is what the other civ wants right now, actually, but we cannot provide them with it in any timely matter (alphabet is so common for them that they are willing to give it away for cheap). We would be willing to give you iron working now, in exchange for writing later.

Jon Miller

	27-01-2003 00:42									#184
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my intended reply (notice how both of them want to meet eachother, this would put us out of the loop and cause our eventual loss to GS)

most assuredly writing would be only the first step

I personally am (I admit this is unofficial) visualising a trading block of our 3 nations

I assure you that we would pass on what was gained from our other neighbor, in exchange for getting future stuff from you

(with which we will give to the other trading partner to get future stuff to give to you)

I have not been that involved with this, but I think that the other civ would give us something you would want for writing, which we would than pass off to you

	27-01-2003 00:44									#185
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sent


most assuredly writing would be only the first step

I personally am (I admit this is unofficial) visualising a trading block of our 3 nations

I assure you that we would pass on what was gained from our other neighbor, in exchange for getting future stuff from you

(with which we will give to the other trading partner to get future stuff to give to you)

I have not been that involved with this, but I think that the other civ would give us something you would want for writing, which we would than pass off to you

I will further my idea (and your message) to the other members and find out what we could get from the other civ for writing

I erpsoanlly would like to see the three of us conduct our research in a manner by which non is wasted (we were very upset by the waste from our research into ironworking)

Jon Miller

	27-01-2003 01:10									#186
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Jeeeesh. Leave for a couple of hours to do grocery shopping and driveway shoveling and look what happens.

I am fine with the proposals. As I said in my much longer note - we would have to come clean with GS one way or the other. But I agree with Diss and the sentiments expressed above. A definite 'no' to the city trade. And I fully support jon's notion of us staying as the go between. If they meet - we will be dropped out of the loop in a hurry.

(I still say we need to talk to Neu Demogyptica. )

And does this mean I'm fired from my VFA job??

	27-01-2003 01:17									#187
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no

you will return to it after a bit

Jon Miller

	27-01-2003 04:09									#188
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talkign with GS

I've presented your message to the team, but here's my own, personal reaction. Our original arrangement was designed so that the first stage of the trade would give you a higher-value tech and the second would give us a higher-value tech so that the two exchanges would balance. Now you are asking for two consecutive exchanges where you end up with the higher value. Does that seem fair to you? It certainly doesn't to me - especially not when you sound like you want to then trade Writing to another civ to further enrich yourselves.

I'm willing to propose the following counter-offer to Gathering Storm:

(1) We go ahead with the Iron Working for Alphabet now. (That helps both of us compared with if you would make an exchange with our rival to your north (which I suspect is Lux)).

(2) When we get Writing, we trade it to you for whatever contacts with other civs you have at the time.

(3) We retain an exclusive right to trade Writing to other civs. Considering that compared with our original agreement, you will be getting Writing for nothing more than contact information, that does not seem like an unreasonable stipulation.

(4) You agree not to try to renegotiate the deal further, even if an opportunity comes up where you might be able to get a deal you like better on Writing elsewhere.

I don't know how my own team will react to this, and it's certainly not an official proposal yet, but I'll go ahead and bring it up with you at the same time I do with Gathering Storm so you folks can go ahead and start thinking about whether you would agree to it if we make it (or something similar) an official offer.

Nathan

quote:


I think that Beta expressed our concerns, but did so improperly. Looking over his messages, he told you where we would have been if we had not traded for Iron Working (With our close neighbors to the north). I must admit that we are somewhat worried about your nation, appearing to research so much faster than us and to be better located also. In any case, we just got Iron Working recently (which means that we could do our deal), but would rather get alphabet much much more cheaply from another source. Is there anyway we could get writing from you for ironworking? It is what the other civ wants right now, actually, but we cannot provide them with it in any timely matter (alphabet is so common for them that they are willing to give it away for cheap). We would be willing to give you iron working now, in exchange for writing later.


Jon Miller

	27-01-2003 04:10									#189
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I've already had one Gathering Storm member express misgivings about the two of us conducting informal negotiations more or less behind the team's back. I don't mind "cutting through the red tape" on matters that are truly urgent, and I think everyone on the team seems to understand that need. But the scale of what you're proposing regarding a long-term three-way partnership is simply too big to be handled without giving the rest of the team more opportunity for input. (It's not that we aren't interested - I've had a similar idea myself - but it's a bit too big a commitment to rush into in a single afternoon.)

Also, frankly, the e-mail/PM format suits my styles of thinking and writing better. It gives me the opportunity to look back over my words and ideas and make a few revisions before I send a message. (It's not rare at all for me to think of additional nuances as I go along.) I'd lose that in a chat-type format.

Once we're closer to completing an arrangement, a chat system (perhaps a private IRC chat room so whoever wants to from both teams could participate) could be useful for ironing out details. But for the moment, I'd rather stick to e-mail and PMs where I can clear what I say with the rest of the team before sending it. I'm sorry if this is less convenient than you'd prefer, but I hope you can understand.

Nathan

	27-01-2003 04:11									#190
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Official Message RE: Tech Situation
Greetings People of Vox Controli,

Gathering Storm has agreed to make my earlier offer regarding Alphabet, Iron Working, Writing, and contacts official. The concept of a three-way partnership is definitely an interesting one, but our diplomats and economists really need more time to consider the issue before we can make any kind of commitment, even an informal one. In the meantime, we need to get Iron Working now so we can move on with our research into Writing without undercutting our ability to maintian parity in defensive technologies. Your failure to keep your commitment in a timely manner has already cost us valuable time, and while we can understand your desire to renegotiate in light of changing circumstances, any further delay can only hurt relations between our peoples.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

	27-01-2003 06:10									#191
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: nbarclay wrote on 26-01-2003 19:02: Greetings Jon and Vox Controli, I don't mean to offend, but such an obsessiion with tier 2 vs. tier 1 seems to reflect a lack of understanding of the game's mechanics. Alphabet, cost 5 in the editor, is the most expensive of the tier 1 techs. It costs two and a half times as much as Pottery or Ceremonial Burial, and only one sixth less than Iron Working. The original deal was deliberately balanced so that each side would contribute techs with a total cost of 9 in the editor to the exchange. And if that was not sufficient for you, you should have brought up the tier 2 vs. tier 1 issue when we were negotiating the original deal. Yes, Iron Working and Writing are both tier 2 techs, but Iron Working is only cost 6, while Writing is cost 8. So in your revised proposal, you would be getting the more expensive tech out of both deals. And while throwing in Warrior Code would balance the values, (aside from our 12 wasted gold from abandoning our Bronze Working research), that is not what we really want. What we really want is contact so that we aren't stuck with you playing middleman where any equal-value tech deal we make with you gives you the opportunity to gain extra profit selling or trading to your other neighbor. Under such circumstances, nominally equal trades are very heavily in your favor. (For example, I can't help but wonder whether you might have traded The Wheel, which you got from us, in order to get Iron Working earlier than you would have otherwise. If so, BetaHound's contention that the deal favored us is completely laughable.) And your inclination to seek to renegotiate agreements that have already been made only serves to make the situation worse. Even if we make an agreement, can we trust you to keep it? And do we really want to have all of our trade deals filter through a neighbor we are not entirely sure we can trust? I still see a lot of promise in the possibility of a three-way partnership, but it would have to be a true partnership of equals, not an arrangement where all trades have to go through Vox as middleman. If you attempt to insist on maintaining your "middleman" status, even in the face of offers that would give you significant value in return for giving it up, you might profit temporarily, but the consequences regarding our desire to maintain a long-term trade relationship with you once that monopoly on contact is broken will be catastrophic. That is all the more true in light of the possibility that had you not blocked Grog's exploration earlier, he might have been able to make contact with the other civilization long ago. Basically, at this point, you have three choices. You can go through with your original agreement. You can accept our new offer (or perhaps come up with a counter-offer we regard as similarly acceptable, although I can't imagine our going for anything that doesn't address the contact situation), in which case your willingness to give up contact will be counted in your favor in future negotiations. Or you can break the deal outright by demanding renegotiation on terms not truly acceptable to us, in which case even if we accept some sort of deal, you will have destroyed all hope for any kind of partnership that lasts beyond the minute we break your stranglehold on contact. My apologies if this is not worded as diplomatically as it could be, but I want to make sure you understand the truth of the situation. Yes, you might profit in the short term by forcing us to accept a deal we don't like (assuming we don't just give up on dealing with you altogether), but you need to be fully aware of the long-term price that would come from such a choice. Sincerely, The People of Gathering Storm Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

actually that is are problem with the other side

they have contact with many people, and have way more techs than either of us (including writing and the like)

they already ahd the wheel, they already had alphabet, they already have everything (the civs on the mainland worry us a lot for being way ahead of us)

our idea is that we will trade you all we have that you don't, and you will do the same

than neither has to worry about tech acendency of the other, or unfairness

the reason why we don't want to give you contact yet is because we are worried about beign gained up on, once there is a history of peace between us we would be happy to give you contact

we are busy studyign something they don't have, mysticism, which if we have a trade treaty we will give you also

Jon Miller

	27-01-2003 06:29									#192
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Re: RE: Official Message RE: Tech Situation

quote:

nbarclay wrote on 26-01-2003 19:02:

Greetings Jon and Vox Controli,

I don't mean to offend, but such an obsessiion with tier 2 vs. tier 1 seems to reflect a lack of understanding of the game's mechanics. Alphabet, cost 5 in the editor, is the most expensive of the tier 1 techs. It costs two and a half times as much as Pottery or Ceremonial Burial, and only one sixth less than Iron Working. The original deal was deliberately balanced so that each side would contribute techs with a total cost of 9 in the editor to the exchange. And if that was not sufficient for you, you should have brought up the tier 2 vs. tier 1 issue when we were negotiating the original deal.

Yes, Iron Working and Writing are both tier 2 techs, but Iron Working is only cost 6, while Writing is cost 8. So in your revised proposal, you would be getting the more expensive tech out of both deals.

And while throwing in Warrior Code would balance the values, (aside from our 12 wasted gold from abandoning our Bronze Working research), that is not what we really want. What we really want is contact so that we aren't stuck with you playing middleman where any equal-value tech deal we make with you gives you the opportunity to gain extra profit selling or trading to your other neighbor. Under such circumstances, nominally equal trades are very heavily in your favor. (For example, I can't help but wonder whether you might have traded The Wheel, which you got from us, in order to get Iron Working earlier than you would have otherwise. If so, BetaHound's contention that the deal favored us is completely laughable.)



now to addressing singular issues

we did not trade the wheel further on, they already had it

the deal with teir one versus teir two is positional ballance wihtin the civs, if we are trading teir twof ro teir one, than the civ who got the teir 2 would have a much better tech position than we would (tey would gain, we would not)

one point is that at this point they (the other civs) don't all already have teir 2s, they already do have teir 1s

so yes, I would like to trade out, but as I said, we will funnel everything back to you (as part of the trade agreement)

either that or we could try to work it into our trade, but I ahve a hard time to see how to do this

this will make up for both of us being somewhat removed from the rest of the civs (we only have the contact with the one civ, and are refused any more)

it will also make us both fairly reliant upon my neighbor, who we will give you contact with once we trust both of you more

as you can tell I am a plain talker

basically the alphabet trade is not good for us

we are having to trade a teir two tech for the IW, and we would like one back, if we do not have a trade agreement going

the reason why this stuff just came up is because we were nto aware of how the rest of hte civs are trading

Jon Miller

	27-01-2003 06:38									#193
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RE: Re: RE: Official Message RE: Tech Situation

This is getting complicated. I've asked for consent to take this into chat as you proposed earlier, and it looks like there's a consensus that that would be okay. (I've been asked to keep a log, though; I hope that's okay.)

The complicating factor on that is that while I have IceChat (an IRC program), I have almost no experience with it - and none trying to initiate this sort of thing. Do you have compatible software, and do you know enough to get us going?

Nathan

	27-01-2003 07:14									#194
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hmmm

GS seems interested in doing the trade deal (completely free exchange of tech)

I did tell them that there is no land bridge

hopefully I am not fired

Jon Miler

	27-01-2003 07:48									#195
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GS is deffinitely interested in that

their FA is talking about an allaince

I am liking it

Jon Miller

	27-01-2003 08:37									#196
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nbarclay> Jon, is this where you wanted me to go, or am I trespassing?
Jon_Miller> hi
Jon_Miller> no you are not
Jon_Miller> ok
Jon_Miller> I didn't even notice you join
Jon_Miller> my inbox is getting full again and I don't want to delete more for a few days at least
Jon_Miller> you there?
nbarclay> The problem with your proposal as it stands now is that you get the benefit of our faster research pace, while we have no definite time at which we can expect to get the benefit of your contact advantage. That seriously undermines the idea that there
nbarclay> is any kind of real balance in the proposal.
Jon_Miller> hmm, you are right that there is an issue there
Jon_Miller> we could play it foa bit
Jon_Miller> how many techs do you have that we dont?
Jon_Miller> I think all we ave right now (or will have soon) is IW and CW
Jon_Miller> Bucs just scored
nbarclay> Alphabet is the only one. Yes, we can research faster, but your trade for Iron Working caught you up. (Well, that plus a couple delays where we had to stockpile gold waiting for responses from you.)
nbarclay> CW???
Jon_Miller> WC oops
Jon_Miller> so we would be even right now, and we could see where it went from here
Jon_Miller> if one sides feels the other is not holding up (for a sig length of time) it can be ended
Jon_Miller> if you had way mroe techs than us I would understand your problems with the idea
Jon_Miller> because it would seem like we were stealing your techs and not delivering
Jon_Miller> do you know anyway to see the tech tree from inside the editor?
Jon_Miller> it is hard to just see one at a time
nbarclay> I don't know how to do it better than one tech at a time. Sorry.
nbarclay> (At least not for tech costs.)
nbarclay> [Thinking]
Jon_Miller> I have up both civ3 and the editor
Jon_Miller> another tamp td
nbarclay> You do have a point that for however long the arrangement lasts, it stops you from using your advantage in being able to trade to a civ we don't have contact with to pull ahead of us. That's definitely worth considering.
Jon_Miller> yes
Jon_Miller> note the other civ does not have this even thing
Jon_Miller> so they might pull some, however, they are not doing well in other ways
Jon_Miller> we are trying to convince them though
Jon_Miller> I will be back in a bit
nbarclay> Right. It sounds like basically, what we would be doing is operating as a single entity with regard to our trade relationship with the rest of the world. Lux could join us, or they could be part of "the rest of the world" that we're competing with.
nbarclay> Does that pretty much summarize the concept?
Jon_Miller> yes
Jon_Miller> actually since outside they have writing, horsebackriding might be better
nbarclay> One of my main goals is to get to Republic ASAP. We need Writing to get there, and with Gathering Storm's research power, even if they get Writing first, we'd have a decent shot at a branch lead beyond that.
Jon_Miller> branch lead?
nbarclay> A lead on a particular branch of the tech tree.
Jon_Miller> ahh, yes, a better way of expressing the idea than my teir one
Jon_Miller> we are learning for monarchy (because that is what the civ above us wants)
Jon_Miller> our taem is somewhat unknowledgable compared to you, we are elarning as we go along
Jon_Miller> especially about multiplayer stuff
nbarclay> The problem with your going for Monarchy is that it's not something two civs working together can leverage very well. Further, Monarchy doesn't yield anywhere near as much gold for further research once you get there.

Last edited by Jon Miller on 27-01-2003 at 09:07

	27-01-2003 08:37									#197
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Jon_Miller> yah, we have thought about it actually
Jon_Miller> but not until recently
Jon_Miller>
nbarclay> What I'd been thinking we might do beyond Writing, if we could build up a strong enough relationship between our civs, is have us go for Code of Laws while you go for Philosophy (which is a lot cheaper but still an obstacle to Republic).
nbarclay> Once both techs are researched, we would then be in a position to head straight for Republic.
Jon_Miller> yes
Jon_Miller> which might give us a good tech position compared to the other civs
nbarclay> (And while we're working on Writing, you could pursue something along another branch and try for a trade.)
Jon_Miller> yes
Jon_Miller> a good idea
Jon_Miller> raiders TA
Jon_Miller> TD
nbarclay> I seriously doubt that any single civ will be able to keep up with us in tech along a single path, so if we can get help with Philosophy (and especially if we can get Literature from someone so we can build libraries along the way),
Jon_Miller> we are persuing mysticism now
nbarclay> there's a good chance we could be first to Republic. From there, picking up other techs could be a whole lot cheaper.
Jon_Miller> and if we have the lead, we can get the most advantage from trade
Jon_Miller> and republic is a good reason to be at peace also
nbarclay> By the way, there are a couple questions that have been nagging at us. BetaHound sounded like there might be other land connected with yours besides ours. Would you mind clarifying that situation?
nbarclay> (The reason I ask is we're wondering whether our direction is the only one you can expand in.)
Jon_Miller> its very close, but not quite connected
Jon_Miller> so yes, no expansion that way
Jon_Miller> you there/
Jon_Miller> ?
nbarclay> Yes, just thinking.
Jon_Miller> about attacking us?
nbarclay> Actually, to be perfectly honest, trying to find a viable way to avoid such unpleasantness.
Jon_Miller> that is what I am trying to do
Jon_Miller> the reason why I have taken over diploamcy with GS
Jon_Miller> my team is very edgy
Jon_Miller> worried about being gained up on
Jon_Miller> and attacked with oyur army of chariots
Jon_Miller> RAiders TD
Jon_Miller> I think that we have more reason to be freinds, than enemies
nbarclay> Basically, ever since we've met, I've seen two possibilities. Either GS and Vox can be very close partners, or one can swallow the other.
nbarclay> Question (and I hope my teammates don't kill me for being so frank when they read this): How intent is Vox on trying to win the game rather than just do well?
Jon_Miller> yes
Jon_Miller> I want to stay in the game
Jon_Miller> an attack by us (even if we win) will put us far enough behind the other nations
Jon_Miller> in tech and the like, that they will walk over us later
Jon_Miller> I don't know about you
nbarclay> Given our starting position and the caliber of players on our team, it's hard to imagine us settling for less than a win unless someone forces us to.
Jon_Miller> you have nto had as much contact with the rest
Jon_Miller> that's what we are afraid of
Jon_Miller> are you refering to a win overall, or a win of a war between us
Jon_Miller> ??
nbarclay> Win overall.
Jon_Miller> the other nations are pretty sure that we will go to war, I would like us to not do so
nbarclay> (And I for one am not fond of conquest victories, by the way.)

Last edited by Jon Miller on 27-01-2003 at 09:08

	27-01-2003 08:38									#198
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Jon_Miller> mostly because I want a good place among the other nations, Vox is not competing jsut against GS
Jon_Miller> we are competing against all the rest
Jon_Miller> and I think that if either of our teams ignore this, that it will be for our loss
nbarclay> If your goal is to survive and prosper, and our goal is to win the game, our goals are not inherently incompatible. I've been sort of hoping that was the case, because I've had a plan floating around in the back of my mind.
Jon_Miller> which is?
Jon_Miller> we are trying to win, however, a conquest against you will nto favor that (at least not at this time) in my beleif
Jon_Miller> (we won't give you all but one city, nor will we be your vassals, we want an a treaty and one I think would benifit both of us)
Jon_Miller> you there?
nbarclay> Basically, my idea is not too different from yours, except perhaps on a grander scale. (And I'll warn you, this will be a tough sell to my own team, especially given that our relationship to date has not left GS in a trusting mood.)
Jon_Miller> neither on our side, but some of that is because we are scared of your team (and yoru charriots)
nbarclay> Just to be clear, we have an agreement within GS that we will not lie to other teams. Maybe a little misdirection, but that's it.
Jon_Miller> We cahnge our minds at times, as I am sure you are aware, mostly becasue we find the game being differently than we thought
nbarclay> My vision would start with a partnership researching down different paths and trading techs. Eventually, the best "two civs as a single entity" model would change from that, though, to something else.
Jon_Miller> to what?
nbarclay> After a certain point, upkeep costs start seriously eating into research rates. If the civ with less income funnels gold into the one with a greater income in return for techs, that basically lets the team research with the income of two civs.
nbarclay> Better, the team could also trade with other civs for techs on branches they aren't pursuing at a given time.
Jon_Miller> hmm, that is an obvious extension
Jon_Miller> my team has not thoght about it
Jon_Miller> makes sense though
nbarclay> That might be construed as a "vassal" relationship of sorts, but the civ providing the money could still research far, far faster that way than on its own.
nbarclay> And from our perspective, your palace could almost serve as an extra, "free" forbidden palace for us.
nbarclay> That would provide a way for our two civs to coexist and prosper in spite of being stuck on a relatively small land mass.
Jon_Miller> or the other way arround, what if we research faster than you?
Jon_Miller> but yes, money for tech is a good deal, in my mind
Jon_Miller> and if that al;lows the other side to ina way learn at twice the speed?
Jon_Miller> even better
Jon_Miller> that seems to be just workign on what each does btter
Jon_Miller> makes sense for an alliance
nbarclay> One other idea is that the alliance could be extended to military operations. Imagine WCs and immortals fighting side by side.
Jon_Miller> yes, I like that idea
Jon_Miller> and there is iron on this island, enough for both of us
Jon_Miller> (maybe more where you are)
nbarclay> That's good to know. Thanks.
Jon_Miller> just to make certain, you are still fine with us building above those mountains?
Jon_Miller> that wasn't a misdirection?
Jon_Miller> you watching the game? or not a football fan
nbarclay> We'd hoped (since before we even knew of your existance, actually) to build a city just a tile or so north of the "Sierra Centralis." Giving that up would be a bit tough, although it might make sense if we can form the kind of partnership I'd like to see
nbarclay> Not a football fan unless a team I especially like is playing, anyhow.
Jon_Miller> is it on the west side? we are planning on building their soon
Jon_Miller> we really son't have much room to the north
nbarclay> Yes, on the west side near the wheat and fish. Obviously, we have the same taste in city sites.
Jon_Miller> yah, that is where a settler is heading
Jon_Miller> hmmm
Jon_Miller> do tyouhave a settler heading there now?
Jon_Miller> it is the best site we can build right now
nbarclay> No; we feel like it's in our best interest to settle sites closer to home where corruption is lower at the moment.
Jon_Miller> we, you are better than we are
Jon_Miller> maybe we shouldconsder that

Last edited by Jon Miller on 27-01-2003 at 09:10

	27-01-2003 08:40									#199
	Get a bigger avatar today!

nbarclay> That might be another advantage to a partnership from your perspective - advice from the experts.
Jon_Miller> lol
Jon_Miller> how do you log a chatt?
Jon_Miller> I would like to pass this on to my members
nbarclay> Good question. So far, my screen buffer hasn't overrun, so I can cut and paste into a word processor if I can't come up with a better solution.
Jon_Miller> and we would of course pass of our luxs and resources to our partners first
nbarclay> Would you mind exchanging information about what luxuries each side has? We'd proposed that when we first met, but you didn't seem interested at the time.
Jon_Miller> we don't have extra
Jon_Miller> we will have extra iron though
nbarclay> Furs and/or incense, or something else?
Jon_Miller> something else
Jon_Miller> I think...
Jon_Miller>
Jon_Miller> nope, not something else
nbarclay> But just one in your whole area? That sounds odd.
Jon_Miller> we don't have much area
nbarclay> Still, it doesn't usually take much area with the map generator's algorithms.
nbarclay> As I said, odd.
Jon_Miller> we have other resources
Jon_Miller> lie iron
nbarclay> The biggest problem I see with selling GS on the alliance idea is the matter of trust. There have been enough awkward moments that the general impression seems to be that Vox is unstable and not trustworthy.
Jon_Miller> we will put iron working up, is that enough?
nbarclay> (I hope you don't take offense at my frankness, but I think it's important for you to understand the situation.)
Jon_Miller> and yes, we have similiar issues on our side, however, enoguh want peace that I think I can swing it
Jon_Miller> I can also be fairly persuasive
nbarclay> If we can go ahead with the Iron Working for Alphabet trade (which would keep Lux from profiting from an Alphabet sale), that would go a long way toward setting the stage for a possible partnership.
Jon_Miller> we would want it as part of a further deal
Jon_Miller> if you think that it is such, than good
nbarclay> The best I can promise right now is that I'll do my very best to make sure you get something more one way or another.
Jon_Miller> if it is not, than we are thinking that you will go to war with us
Jon_Miller> we will offer IW
Jon_Miller> there will be some time beofre it goes through, there can be a conclusion
Jon_Miller> but realise that I ahve been very honest with you and very open
nbarclay> I don't have the same power on GS that you seem to on Vox, but I like to think my persuasion skills aren't bad either.
Jon_Miller> we can have a bigger chat
Jon_Miller> and if my team does not feel I am doing well, than I could be in trouble
Jon_Miller> but in a bigger chat
Jon_Miller> you can invite more of your team, we can than talk to them
Jon_Miller> (there are 5 main members of Vox + 1 minor, I am fairly certain of 2 other main members)
Jon_Miller> (being with me)
Jon_Miller> your team can question me, hoepfull I can convince them of mine, and Voxs, honesty
nbarclay> A bigger chat right now isn't possible; too much of our team (the part that lives in Europe) is asleep. But we can try to set something up sometime.
Jon_Miller> ok, but soon
Jon_Miller> my team would need it soon
nbarclay> What time zone are you in?
Jon_Miller> east
Jon_Miller> USA
Jon_Miller> I am up all hours but mid morning
Jon_Miller> (I go to sleep at 5 and wake up at 12)

Last edited by Jon Miller on 27-01-2003 at 09:12

	27-01-2003 08:43									#200
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

nbarclay> Maybe we can try to line something up for around 8:00 p.m. your time tomorrow. I'm not sure how it will work out, but it seems worth a try.
Jon_Miller> ok
nbarclay> So are we agreed that a long-term alliance would be good for both our civs, if we can just convince our respective teams of it?
Jon_Miller> yes
Jon_Miller> I am convinced of it
nbarclay> I guess the big thing still up in the air is the tech trade situation. One possibility (assuming you still have the turn) would be for you to go ahead and accept Alphabet and offer Iron Working. If we accept the deal, it will constitute a commitment
Jon_Miller> and your side will similiarly be true?
Jon_Miller> I don't want just a maybe, since I feel that if you don't ally, that we will be facing an attack soon
Jon_Miller> I can ask my players to sit on it for a while, until this is decided
nbarclay> from Gathering Storm to either accept your deal for a "trade all the technologies we get for an indefinite time" agreement or provide something else as compensation for the fact that you can get Alphabet cheaply. And not to attack you while we're
nbarclay> working out the details.
Jon_Miller> I will present that to my team, I think they will agree with that
nbarclay> A war soon is the last thing GS wants, for much the reasons you've outlined. It would be too expensive even to the winning civ.
Jon_Miller> yes
Jon_Miller> I agree
nbarclay> (Well maybe not quite the last thing - it might be possible to provoke us into one - but it would take a situation we regard as very serious.)
Jon_Miller> but my team is scared
Jon_Miller> I am sure it won't come to that
Jon_Miller> I feel very good about our conversation
Jon_Miller> the reason why I am FA with you is because my team is scared
Jon_Miller> I will tell them that I think that you will take the peace treaty
Jon_Miller> I tihnk that will calm them down
Jon_Miller> we want to build settlers, not troops
Jon_Miller> I am sure you do also
Jon_Miller>
Jon_Miller> (and workers)
Jon_Miller> you there?
nbarclay> Definitely, settlers and workers first. That's the only way either of us has any chance of competing with the rest of the world.
Jon_Miller> yes
Jon_Miller> that is why I want peace
Jon_Miller> 48-21 BWT
Jon_Miller> BTW
Jon_Miller> the line of the southern mountains (for us)
nbarclay> Here's something else to convey to your team. For the time being, you have nothing to fear from us unless you do something to make us pretty mad. But the day will come when GS has to decide whether Vox is worth more to us as allies or
Jon_Miller> the day shold come quickly
nbarclay> as conquered territory. If your actions give us reason to fear and mistrust you, you can guess which choice we are likely to make. Again, just stating facts in the interest of openness.
Jon_Miller> yes
Jon_Miller> I want a peace treaty
Jon_Miller> hopefully GS does also
nbarclay> For the time being, we definitely want peace. Longer-term, the issue of trust is an obstacle that will have to be overcome.
Jon_Miller> well, you know a lot mroe about Vox, than I know about GS
nbarclay> What do you mean about my knowing more about Vox?
Jon_Miller> you know more about what are position is
Jon_Miller> and youa re a better team (have very talented players)
nbarclay> I guess we do have a bit more land that you haven't seen than you do that we haven't seen, although we've traded descriptions to a certian extent.
Jon_Miller> yah, but I just gave you more description
nbarclay> Not a whole lot more, unless I missed something.

Last edited by Jon Miller on 27-01-2003 at 09:15

	27-01-2003 08:51									#201
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

nbarclay> Here's something else to convey to your team. For the time being, you have nothing to fear from us unless you do something to make us pretty mad. But the day will come when GS has to decide whether Vox is worth more to us as allies or
Jon_Miller> the day shold come quickly
nbarclay> as conquered territory. If your actions give us reason to fear and mistrust you, you can guess which choice we are likely to make. Again, just stating facts in the interest of openness.
Jon_Miller> yes
Jon_Miller> I want a peace treaty
Jon_Miller> hopefully GS does also
nbarclay> For the time being, we definitely want peace. Longer-term, the issue of trust is an obstacle that will have to be overcome.
Jon_Miller> well, you know a lot mroe about Vox, than I know about GS
nbarclay> What do you mean about my knowing more about Vox?
Jon_Miller> you know more about what are position is
Jon_Miller> and youa re a better team (have very talented players)
nbarclay> I guess we do have a bit more land that you haven't seen than you do that we haven't seen, although we've traded descriptions to a certian extent.
Jon_Miller> yah, but I just gave you more description
nbarclay> Not a whole lot more, unless I missed something.
Jon_Miller> but important stuff
nbarclay> Maybe. The iron situation is interesting to know, but not something we won't learn for ourselves (aside from what might be on North Estonia) when we get Iron Working. The fact that Lux is separated by water is something we'd already guessed from your
nbarclay> ability to focus every single warrior you had at one point in the game in our direction.
Jon_Miller> hmm, yah, it could be guessed
Jon_Miller> even if you had went through there, I don't think you could have met the other civ
nbarclay> One of your cities in the way, or a case of warriors have to be on both sides at exactly the right time?
nbarclay> (Both sides of the water, that is)
Jon_Miller> I think maybe both might be the case, or maybe only one
Jon_Miller> I would have to go find the screen shot again
Jon_Miller> I have made so many posts in this game
Jon_Miller> I only became a King recently, even though I ahve been here since early 99
Jon_Miller> if you want I could go find te screen shot
Jon_Miller> deffinitely the second one
nbarclay> Yeah, it's amazing how quickly this sort of thing can increase one's post count.
nbarclay> Thanks.
nbarclay> Anything else to talk about, or have we pretty much covered what needs covered for the time being?
nbarclay> Hello?
Jon_Miller> yes
Jon_Miller> sorry, I went for a bit
Jon_Miller> I think so, until we can talk to your membes that are not in favor off the peace treaty

Last edited by Jon Miller on 27-01-2003 at 09:17

	27-01-2003 08:52									#202
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

if you are not certain about who said something, edit my psots

Jon Miller

	27-01-2003 08:54									#203
	Suffering from ads?

nbarclay> Yeah, it's amazing how quickly this sort of thing can increase one's post count.
nbarclay> Thanks.
nbarclay> Anything else to talk about, or have we pretty much covered what needs covered for the time being?
nbarclay> Hello?
Jon_Miller> yes
Jon_Miller> sorry, I went for a bit
Jon_Miller> I think so, until we can talk to your membes that are not in favor off the peace treaty
nbarclay> I'll see what I can do about lining up a larger chat for tomorrow at 8:00 P.M. Eastern time.
nbarclay> Do we want to meet in the Vox chatroom again?
Jon_Miller> that could work fine
Jon_Miller> I have been psoting the chat log in my forum
Jon_Miller> but I have had to copy paste
Jon_Miller> now I need to take the trash out
nbarclay> Okay, signing off, then. Until tomorrow...

Last edited by Jon Miller on 27-01-2003 at 09:17

	27-01-2003 08:59									#204
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well..... at least the Bucs won. My sympathies to you west coasters if you were pulling for the Raiders.

Jon and I were in a long chat with Calc (Lux) earlier. Jon has clearly been chatting with GS since.

Here were the possibilities when we left Lux. And btw, Lux is very much back tracking on the longer term arrangement. They thought we would be turning mysticism over to them in exchange for iron working and the pottery deal. Calc acknowledges that it looked like a lop sided deal in their favor, but we accepted. Both jon and I made the point that it was intended to be the start of a longer term deal. They want tech for tech trades that balance out. (Beta scratches his head...)

So here is where we stand - as of 6pm, when I left jon after the Lux chat. Stuff has clearly progressed since then. (that position as head of the Voxian Economic Council is looking more and more attractive )

1.
- We can trade IW for alpha now with GS. Gs would be happy.
- We trade mysticism with Lux when we are done, for Warrior code and possibly cash.
- We trade mysticism and WarriorCode to GS for Writing.
- we start researching something else. And we start negotiating the next round of trades.

2.
- we hang tight and get warrior code and alphabet from Lux for Mysticism (this may be doubtful. Trip may not concur)
- we gift Warrior code to GS.
- we trade IW for Writing.
- we still have mysticism left in the back pocket to trade with GS.
-GS may be really p***ed at us for this. They don't get IW now.

A couple of other points. Lux has all the first tier techs. They have clearly been trading with Neu D, who they call their enemy. Should we be so lucky with our enemies. They fully admit this.

Unless jon can come up with something with GS, #1 seems the most probable outcome. Lux clearly has a different understanding of the situation. I am more and more keen to talk to Neu D.

	27-01-2003 09:12									#205
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Thanks for the running comentary jon! Did you see any of the game?

So are we having a chat tomorrow night? They sure seem uppitty for a civ which has no contacts, is behind in research, and cannot threaten us militarily unless we give them IW.

If we are having a chat - we should make sure we have our game plan in tact.

And that situation with Lux is really p***ing me off. What a bunch of turkeys. And what's with this - I have to take it to Trip nonsense. Makes him sound like Jabba the Hutt. Sky - where are you when we need you?!!!

I'm definitely sending a 'hi, how you doing?' note to Neu D, tomorrow.

	27-01-2003 11:44									#206
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

oh jeez. I have a lot of catching up to do

	27-01-2003 12:27									#207
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

whew!

What exactly is the problem with Lux Beta? Have you had any other contact with them that is relevant.

I propose we keep researching Mysticism and keep our end of the deal. I don't want to screw Lux over. But we do need to consider any further arrangements carefully. But I do respect them for just "giving" us Iron Working for nothing in return immediately. They are "trusting" us to return mysticism later. I don't want to violate that trust or them and new Demo could come knocking later. And yes they are definately trading. Really you could say they are doing the same thing that we are doing with GS and Lux. Acting as a middleman.

So I propose we offer Iron working for alphabet to GS. We finish researching Mysticism and trade it to Lux and try to get something more for it since we did lose turns researching Iron Working.

	27-01-2003 12:37									#208
	Tired of ads?

I desperately want to make this chat.

But here are my views. Take note of this Jon, so you know how I feel.

If we go peace we go all the way. I don't want any pussyfooting around. I don't want any minor trade deals. I want a full partnership with GS.I want to go all the way with this alliance/partnership. And included in this I propose we trade screen shots. This should eliminate a lot of mistrust between our 2 nations. I know it's not in the spirit of the game, but I feel we must do this to move peace forward.

And I want an alliance of sorts. We become long term partners. At least until the industrial age. We agree not to attack each other before then. And as you guys discussed we will form a trade system that boosts our status. We finish our committment with Lux, and place our trade deals with GS ahead of Lux.

And going this peace "all the way" theme, I want total agreement on settlement sites. We both want that fish/wheat site so we need to reach an agreement on that. Perhaps they can offer something small and we can leave that for them and settle everything else north of the mountains. Make sure you guys work this out.

Don't get me wrong, I support peace. The only reason I was wary was because of vel is on that team. And he has made threads and stategy guides about early conquest. But I like nbarclay. He seems to be peaceful minded.

The next point is a biggie. The Lux situation. While Lux giving us Iron Working right off the bat was cool, I really haven't heard much from them. So because the lack of communication, I'm not entirely sure we can trust them.

So one thing we can bring up in the chat tomorrow is my and (our) fear that GS and Lux will use that contact information and form a trade alliance and leave us out. I'm still not sure how we can work this out. But I think there are enough techs that we can arrange a 3 way parallel research path. This would take communication between all 3 teams at the same time and some study of the tech tree. But so far Lux hasn't disclosed that much about their nation and their tech status. I would like a little more honesty from them.

So I would not like to give our contact with Lux to GS, but they won't like that, and I don't blame them. They have no way of telling if we are trading their techs to Lux.

There must be a solution to that Lus/Vox/GS thing, I just can't figure it out. I wish we had more contact with Lux. Then we could speed up this 3 way parallel research path.

	27-01-2003 12:46									#209
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

P.S. I don't fear that team . I was just wary of Vel and his ealry conquest stategies he has posted about.

I am certain we can take them on the tough terrain. The only problem our immortals would have is in the open desert and grassland south of the mountains.

but a complete alliance/partnership will be more beneficial than complet conquest really. But it would have to be complete. The 2 teams would essentually have to act like 1 team. And that is still difficult, because they want to win the game. But I'd imagine we can trust them for a while. But if they start falling far behind the other civs, they may do something drastic . But I don't see that happening.

	27-01-2003 12:48									#210
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

one more thing, what should I do with the turn?

I'll play the turn. I'll wait until morning to send it. I think you guys worked a lot out. I'll go ahead and put up Iron Working. If the deal falls through tomorrow night we can always cancel it next turn.