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Beta
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Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:25
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Just received from BFM. We have some things to talk about.
Re: Trade Arrangements
Hello BetaHound!
I'm not at work anymore, so I have a bit more time to reply to you.
I will not take your Avatar as offensive or dangerous. On the contrary - I think it is very nice. Send my greetings to your wife.
To business: I have discussed both plans with my President, Trip, and some of our Ministers and team members.
First, let me state that there are 3 options here, besides the IronWorking-Mysticism deal we already have. They are:
1) We give you Alphabet for 15 gold plus 1 gold per turn, and that's it.
2) We give you Alphabet for 15 gold plus 1 gold per turn, and Writing for something else - we don't know what yet. This will open up more trade options. You contact GS and we work out a tech researching plan, in which GS and Lux trade techs with Vox acting as Middle Men. This is quite complicated, and needs the co-operation of GS.
3) We give you Alphabet for the possession of a small city near GS for 3 turns max. We will give it back to you afterwards, after we have made contact with GS in this way. We will then have GS as a trade partner, and will make sure that you will not fall behind GS too much in techs (we might donate techs we got from GS to you).
As I said, we discussed all plans. Let me just say first that we want to keep you as friends and strategic trading partners. It will give us an advantage over our close neighbours.
My people feel that we have come a great way towards you by giving you Iron Working in advance, while you will not have Mysticism for us for over 20 turns. This is a calculated risk, but you have profited a great deal from this. Also, we traded Pottery to you for a small amount.
Considering this, we cannot carry out plan 1. The gold is just not enough to compensate for our tech research.
We had a lot of discussion on plan 2. The problem is here that to open up trade options, we must get you both Alphabet and Writing. This is quite a lot considering the fact that you will not have any gold for it if you continue to research Mysticism, which is our priority. Also, we need to get GS's co-operation AND we must get them to research the exact techs we want. My people feel that this is just one bridge too far.
I have been congratulated on the ingenuity of plan 3. It is a move that no other civ will expect. GS will rub their eyes because they think that we are far away on our own island. They will know that Vox and Lux put a great deal of trust into each other and will think twice before considering attacking you. You will also have one free tech which is a big bonus considering your slow research speed. We will make sure that tech we trade with GS will come your way, too, because it is in our interest that you also reseach tech that is useful to us. Every tech we can get from your island is
an advantage over the other civs on our island! We will need to work out details - which city to switch, for how long and if units will be involved.
I hope you can see our reasoning here. Let me know what your people think.
Yours,
BigFurryMonster
Minister of Trade and Creative Plans of Lux Invicta
__________________
Better watch out, or I'll purr in your general direction.
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Beta
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Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:25
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Sent this interim response - with some mild pushing back on a few of their points. Should also help us stimulate our discussion.
Re: Trade Arrangements
Hi BFM. Yes - we understand your reasoning. I have taken this to Vox for discussion.
In the meantime - one new piece of info, one question, one point I wish to make, and one point to ponder (and on this one - please take a couple days to let it percolate).
1) info - it looks like we can improve upon our research rate - the exact time to be determined shortly.
2) question - under option 3 - how about the possible option of us trading two cities - one of ours to give you contact with GS, and one of yours to give us contact with Neu D? Plus the Alphabet. And some gold the other way. And yes - we agree - the idea has incredible ingenuity!
3) a point I would like to make - I understand your reluctance on option 1, and readily admit that the arrangement to date has been somewhat one-sided, but we see this as a co-operative and long-term arrangment. There may come a time when we have a resource you need, and nothing to pay in return. We will provide it. There may come a time when our research is ahead of yours, and the tables are tilted the other way. We will provide the techs. There may be a time when we need each other's military assistance, etc etc. If we try to keep track of debits and credits over different items and over hundreds, nay, thousands of years, it will become near impossible to manage.
4) a point to ponder - we trust Lux. We do not have the same relationship with GS. In fact- I would go so far as to say we that we don't trust them. That may change with time. But for now, why should we, or you, knowing that we don't trust them, be so eager to engage them in a joint trading arrangement? I concur that we would all grow quickly in techs. And I see the advantage from your perspective - the two civs who are advancing with you at this quick rate are both on a separate continent, which would give you a clear advantage over your neighbours, Neu D on your continent. But what does it do for us? Other than strengthen relative to us - a civ that we do not trust. I hope you see my point.
While still on number 4, I can possibly see a longer-term situation, when trust is reached bewteen GS and Vox, where all 3 nations enter into an 'eastern alliance' of some sort - with the rest of the world as our - er hunting grounds. But you would have the first and most readily available spoils. It would require a feat of diplomacy to keep the alliance balanced. It could be done - but, each may feel insecure - and with the early tensions between GS and ourselves, and our position in between you and GS, us maybe more than you.
Hmmmm... food for thought.
Will get back to you as soon as I can.
Cheers! BetaHound
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Jon Miller
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we shold point out to Lux that GS owes us a tech
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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hold on to it
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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we could pay more for alphabet
but be sure to tell Lux that we could get something for them from GS
Jon Miller
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Beta
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Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:25
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OK. I modified the previous letter - and toned it down a fair bit. I still wanted to put the onus on them to come clean about their research. Besides - it buys us time to conclude the discussion with Lux. And that is why I did not mention that we have another deal for Alphabet. That will be the next letter - which will really p*** them off. C'est la vie! C'est la guerre! C'est la civ3!
I also expanded the settlement discussion - to make it appear that it is a matter of survival for us (which to some extent is true) and to try and convince them we are being fair.
The other thing they have been pressuring us for - is how our land is connected with that of our mysterious neighbors. I haven't said anything about it yet. I'm somewhat worried if they knew the connection was merely across water, they might feel somewaht more confident about being aggressive. Not sure what they would do about it of course, until they get swordsmen.
Here's what has been sent. We now need to concentrate on what we do about Lux and the proposals on the table.
Issues
Dear nbarclay, of Gathering Storm.
As you can well imagine, your recent letter created somewhat of a stir in Vox Controli, and hence the delay in responding.
Perhaps a senator, who will remain un-named, said it best when he quoted from the One Book. The book of Pastures.
Pastures 5, verses 1-4
1. And the cows will graze. And they will eat grass. And they will defecate.
2. And it will be pure and honest stuff, and can be used in the fields as fertilizer.
3. And the bulls will graze. And they will eat grass. And they will defecate.
4. But it is neither pure, nor honest. And can not be used for much of anything.
Now, before you react, please let me explain. I'm sure you will see why we are perplexed and somewhat disturbed.
When you approached us last regarding this trade, we were 12 turns away from completing our research on iron working. We have been watching carefully our allocation of funds to both the research and the treasury, with an aim to maximizing research, but alas, The Voice is obviously not as blessed as your capitol.
At that point, you had just switched your research efforts and were undertaking your new direction - that of Alphabet. Or so you told us. Now, either you have a magical approach to research, or, you have been trading technology with another contact, which makes a joke of your 'patent' proposal. If you have been trading, I would be curious to know who our bronze working has made it to.
So, here we sit, two turns to completing iron working (or one by the time this letter reaches you) , and you have already completed research on Alphabet, which our scientists tell me requires some 50 beakers and should take nearly, but not quite as long as our iron working research, which we have been diligently working on since we came into existence.
The other possibility is that the 'big rush' to do the bronze working trade (because, as you stated at the time, you were about to start a new research path) was just a ruse to pressure us into the trade. You may have well been on to a new research path already. And let's be honest about that trade; beaker's aside, it was of much more value to you to get bronze working and the ability to produce spearmen, than it was for us to get the wheel.
So, before there is anymore talk of technology trading, we would like to know what is going on. Simple as that. I sincerely hope you can clarify matters for us.
As to the nation that borders us to the north, well, as I said earlier, we have promised not to reveal names. As of yet. Particularly now where your integrity is much in question on our senate floor. But we have been honest as to our contact with them. And I will also tell you that we have not provided any technology to our 'other' neighbours to date.
However, the possibility still exists for a larger trade consordium involving you, and we are in serious discussion with them regarding this. There is even early talk of a possible 'Eastern Alliance', and what benefits that might entail for all concerned.
As to the road which so bothers you, well, it is for settlement purposes only. From what I can recall of our cartography discussions, you clearly have the advantage in geography. I have revisited our map and measured it in square vixens, a measurement you may know better as tiles. North Estonia is some 30 tiles in size.
So - if the people of Gathering Storm want to talk fairness, let's talk. I believe Vox settling the area north of the Sierra Centralis - the mountain range where our warriors are currently on look-out - is more than a fair sub-division of the continent we share. If you deny us that - well, why not simply deny us existence - as you will be trapping us in the limited confines of North Estonia. Furthemore, the land south of the mountains, from what we can see, has grasslands and decent terrain. The land north of the mountains is largely jungle.
To finalize the geography discussion, and to make it absolutely clear as to our intentions, we are building the road to establish new settlements. Settlements which we can assure you, will be north of the mountains. Thud can remain where he is to confirm who comes and goes. That was the intent of the original agreement.
And to conlude, what I acknowledge is a somewhat testy letter, I will quote the scriptures of the storm:
As Wisdom 4:7 says, “Ignorance breeds fear, but the fruit of knowledge is hope.”
But I think, if I am not mistaken, that Wisdom 4:19 reads "Practice what you preach."
I trust you can understand why we are seeking clarification as to the technology issue before proceeding with any more trade talks. I also hope you can see where our limited and modest settlement plans are more than fair, particulary given that you have a clearly established watch-guard position to ensure that only civilian units and their escorts come down the road.
Yours truly, BetaHound, VFA, Vox Controli
Last edited by Beta on 26-01-2003 at 04:30
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Beta
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Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by BetaHound
....
First, let me state that there are 3 options here, besides the IronWorking-Mysticism deal we already have. They are:
1) We give you Alphabet for 15 gold plus 1 gold per turn, and that's it.
2) We give you Alphabet for 15 gold plus 1 gold per turn, and Writing for something else - we don't know what yet. This will open up more trade options. You contact GS and we work out a tech researching plan, in which GS and Lux trade techs with Vox acting as Middle Men. This is quite complicated, and needs the co-operation of GS.
3) We give you Alphabet for the possession of a small city near GS for 3 turns max. We will give it back to you afterwards, after we have made contact with GS in this way. We will then have GS as a trade partner, and will make sure that you will not fall behind GS too much in techs (we might donate techs we got from GS to you).
As I said, we discussed all plans. Let me just say first that we want to keep you as friends and strategic trading partners. It will give us an advantage over our close neighbours.
My people feel that we have come a great way towards you by giving you Iron Working in advance, while you will not have Mysticism for us for over 20 turns. This is a calculated risk, but you have profited a great deal from this. Also, we traded Pottery to you for a small amount.
Considering this, we cannot carry out plan 1. The gold is just not enough to compensate for our tech research.
We had a lot of discussion on plan 2. The problem is here that to open up trade options, we must get you both Alphabet and Writing. This is quite a lot considering the fact that you will not have any gold for it if you continue to research Mysticism, which is our priority. Also, we need to get GS's co-operation AND we must get them to research the exact techs we want. My people feel that this is just one bridge too far.
I have been congratulated on the ingenuity of plan 3. It is a move that no other civ will expect. GS will rub their eyes because they think that we are far away on our own island. They will know that Vox and Lux put a great deal of trust into each other and will think twice before considering attacking you. You will also have one free tech which is a big bonus considering your slow research speed. We will make sure that tech we trade with GS will come your way, too, because it is in our interest that you also reseach tech that is useful to us. Every tech we can get from your island is
an advantage over the other civs on our island! We will need to work out details - which city to switch, for how long and if units will be involved.
I hope you can see our reasoning here. Let me know what your people think.
Yours,
BigFurryMonster
Minister of Trade and Creative Plans of Lux Invicta
__________________
Better watch out, or I'll purr in your general direction. |
Thought I should bring this forward to begin discussion. They are digging their heels in somewhat, and clearly want option 3. Just some thoughts to get the discussion going.
- if we do it, what guarantee do we have that we get the city back.
- if they make contact and establish a firm relationship with GS, what's to say we aren't cut out of the dealing shortly thereafter, and what's to say we aren't facing a two front war when galleys come around
- see my counter-proposal above - where they would give us a city to contact Neu D.
- we could PM Neu D and see what's up. We can't do deals, but we might get another side to the story
- if we were to trade a city - I would want it south of the mountains, which would probably require prior approval of GS
-I very much prefer option 2. We can make it work with out writing. We simply act as the conduit for the trades
- I like this because it protects our trade interests, and gives us a degree of control over GS
- too bad they backed out of option 1.
We are going to need to determine something soon, if we want to tell GS we already have Alphabet. Or - we do the trade with GS, and say thanks but no thanks to Lux. eeeeek. Not sure I like that one.
And how do folks feel about working towards a three-team alliance to take on the rest of the world? If we think it is an OK idea, then Lux's option 2 or 3 would be a good first step.
Or how about we play along - until we can make contact with Neu D. And make friends with them as insurance.
I have to admit - it bothers me that Lux is so keen to contact GS, especially knowing the chilly foreign relations climate that exists bewteen the two of us. I'm afraid we are just a stepping stone to the two of them getting together, and then wack! Call me paranoid, but it is interesting that there were no thoughts forthcoming from them on how we could contact Neu D. I am looking forward to their response to my inquiry/suggestion on that.
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Beta
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Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:25
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Response from Gathering Storm. And ooops, we missed something. As we are the only civ they are in contact with, they will have noticed the cost of iron working drop when we had acquired it. Also - their explanations for their research rate makes sense. It also explains why ours are slower. (city size, groth rates, and improved tiles)
Anyways - here is the response (it is long) then we should all post some thoughts on what to do given Lux's and GS's response.
Trade situation, and your concerns (Camel #1 of 3)
[To BetaHound, copies to Eli, Dissident, and Jon Miller]
Greetings BetaHound and Vox Controli,
On the subject of cows and bulls (and what comes from them), our analysts find it almost impossible to believe that you do not already have Iron Working. According to their analysis, Iron Working should cost us twice as much to research as Warrior Code if no nation we know has either. Similarly, Writing should require one third more research than Iron Working. And there are similar relationships regarding the costs of all other technologies we could currently research. Since you are our only in-game contact at present (your suspicions to the contrary notwithstanding), our analysts say that only your having researched a technology should create a deviation between anticipated and actual research costs.
With every other technology we can consider researching, costs follow a consistent pattern. But the cost of Iron Working is lower than it ought to be if you have not yet researched it. The real clincher is that at the rate we can research Iron Working, we ought to be able to research Writing one turn faster than we actually can – unless the contact situation has made Iron Working cheaper. If you are telling the truth, there is some great mystery here by which the assumptions our analysts base their work on is invalid. But I hope you can see why we would be extremely skeptical regarding your claims of not yet having discovered Iron Working. Either you are lying to us, or our understanding of the world we live in is seriously flawed. (By the way, the original analysis was conducted in 2230 BC, but I have since confirmed the figures myself.)
Regarding our own research rate, if you have been watching the Roster of Great Cities, I’m sure you have seen that Eye of the Storm has been consistently at least size 3 and often size 4 on the International City Size Scale for quite some time. Eye of the Storm has not worked land producing less than two commerce in centuries, and Hurricane has sometimes had access to two commerce and sometimes just one depending on priorities of the moment. Add to that the commerce from the city sites themselves (with capitals inherently being especially wealthy) and you can see for yourself that our research rate, although quite rapid, is not impossible. (And I should note that at Sir Ralph’s insistence, we had already started researching Alphabet based on your conditional acceptance of our trade proposal before you sent your final acceptance, leaving us a turn ahead of where we would have been had more cautious policies prevailed.)
(continued next camel)
Trade deal, and your concerns (camel #2 of 3)
(Continued from previous camel)
Next, in regard to your claim that Bronze Working was worth more to us than The Wheel was to you, the fact that we would have researched Bronze and then Iron ourselves had you not agreed to the deal renders such short-term comparisons irrelevant. On that path, we would have had Bronze Working in plenty of time to build any spearmen we might want, and would be getting Iron Working through our own research about the same time we will get it from you assuming you keep your word. So the true benefits of the exchange are in terms of long-term prosperity, not short-term military advantage, and on that basis, the agreement was in your favor. We, unlike you, sacrificed a turn’s research (and that at our higher research rate) to make the deal work. Further, based on what you have indicated about your own research rate, a trade at equal value saves you significantly more research time than it does us compared with each doing the research ourselves. And that is not even considering the risk on our side and (I assume) hope on yours that you might be able to exchange The Wheel and/or Alphabet for gold and/or additional knowledge. (We never requested a patent on either of those technologies and, in fact, clearly acknowledged your prospects for trading them when we proposed the trade agreement. The patent concept is strictly in connection with trades involving Writing and beyond.)
If you need further assurance regarding the fact that you are the only nation we currently have in-game contact with, I could e-mail one or more of your people a copy of the “Histograph” portion of our bureaucrats’ “form F8” summarizing relative “scores”. [I’d need an e-mail address or addresses, though, since PMs can’t handle graphics.] That would be sufficient to show both that only our two civilizations appear on that form and that the date on the form is current. By the way, in case you are wondering about recent appearances on similar forms from your own bureaucrats, we recently founded a third city. (Alas, shortly after sending out our settler, our glorious capital was struck by disease, but it has since recovered.)
Before I leave the issue of trade deals, there is one final point I would like to make that is causing us a certain amount of concern. When we first approached you to propose the two-stage deal, we conveyed (or at least I certainly attempted to convey) our assumption that you had already researched Iron Working as your first priority. You said nothing to indicate that our assumption was incorrect, and thereby left us to assume that the exchange of Alphabet for Iron Working could be completed just as soon as we completed our research into Alphabet. Even giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you are now telling the truth that you had not already researched Iron Working, you left us to labor under a false assumption. And while I see the military sense in not revealing your lack of a key military technology, the situation thus created is not ideal for building trust.
(continued on next camel)
Trade deal, and your concerns (Camel #3 of 3)
(Continued from Camel #2)
At this point, the situation for us has become extremely awkward. When you not only failed to offer Iron Working as requested even though we assumed you already had it, but also failed to provide any other meaningful response to our message indicating that we were ready for the exchange, that left us wondering about the possibility, however remote, that you might renege on your promise. That concern caused us to suspend our research while waiting for the deal to be completed, since if we do not get Iron Working from you, we need to start researching it ourselves immediately (in spite of how horribly distasteful such a duplication of effort is). But the strain of the delay grows greater every turn, and we really need for you to accept our offer of Alphabet and return your offer of Iron Working immediately so that we can get on with our Writing research (which, we hope, you can also benefit from through some sort of future exchange). Unless the deal goes through (or, at the very least, we get an extremely solid explanation for why it does not go through), our government will face intense pressure to write you off as oath breakers and start our own research into Iron Working, in which case the consequences for the relationship between our nations would be less than pleasant. (I am not attempting to threaten here; merely to point out the powerful forces involved in such matters.)
In regard to issues of settling and borders, on a continent as small as this one, it seems prudent to make sure you recognize the importance of making the greatest possible use of the space available. Our city planners are working on a principle they have developed known as the “size 12 principle.” Specifically, cities should be positioned to use all of our land, as much coast as is practical, and most of the sea within our cities’ borders at size 12. That does not allow much room for additional growth should our scientists someday come up with a way to grow cities beyond what a river or lake permits, but we feel that maximizing our gold for science in the meantime is far more important. (And cities built on the “size 12 principle” don’t generally need to start working much if any coast or seas until beyond size 6, which most cities will not be able to exceed until the “aqueducts” certain of our visionaries contemplate can be built.) We strongly recommend that you follow a similar pattern, both to maximize your ability to generate wealth and to avoid possible tensions between our peoples over accusations of “squandering” useful land.
As for whether the northern end of the Spinebreaker Mountains (or Sierra Centralis as you call them) would be a good border, some of your earlier words had given us hope that ours was not the only direction you could possibly expand in. Regarding North Estonia, you said, “And lastly, it connects to another landmass to the east.” If you have another land mass in another direction, can you not do some of your expanding in that direction? We have no other lands within sight that we can expand to, and we had really hoped to expand at least a little north of the mountains. Also, if you have a lake in North Estonia, North Estonia itself ought to be able to support four cities with proper planning. (Eventually, it can regardless of whether you have a lake or not, but we could understand your not wanting to make cities that would have a hard time growing any time in the near future your top priority.)
Sincerely,
The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist
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Beta
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Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:25
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We are now going to have to come clean to a certain extent with GS.
I say we tell them our contact is not via land, but over a straight of water. That will address the concerns over our expansion in another direction.
I suggest we tell them we have received techs from the other neighbour. I also suggest we tell them we did receive iron working a number of turns ago, and that we were nervous to let GS know. And we can say why - chariots can't make it through the jungle/mountain barrier - swordsmen can.
We can tell them we are still nervous about providing it to GS. We can go on about who is on their team, and how we feel threatened, etc etc.
The other possibility if we want to make a dramatic change in our relationship with GS, is that you can fire me from the FA job. Someone else takes the job, and jon can pm them about my nervousness, and paranoia, and not writing precisely what the team wanted. You can make apologies for the last letter, etc.etc. "And now we can enter into a new era of international relations!"
But - do we trade iron working? That is the question. We can say we have a better deal on the table for Alphabet right now. Which would tick them off a bit more. Or we can say we want to go through with the deal, but we do have a better offer, and that if they could thrown in say, 5 gold, and 1 gold per turn to assist us with our obviously deficient research rate, we could go along with it. Or we simply don't trade it. they will have it eventually - but some 15-25 turns out.
If they have just recently built a third city, it means their fourth shouldn't be ready for a few turns, which should give us a samll breather to get one of the southern cities in, even when they know where the iron deposits are. If we don't trade, we will clearly have time to get our cities in, but they will be royally p***ed.
This whole discussion hinges somewhat on our longer term plans. Who do we want to be allies with. And how do we want to expand. We are going to need friends. That is for sure. And I am still secure in saying that GS will not be in a position to take us out anywhere in the near future. Our geography and Immortals will ensure our continued existence. My concern is when galleys come into play - then Lux and GS can do us in. I'm almost thinking that the Apolytonian establishment may try and stick together - or do you think I am off-base on that sentiment.
Anyways - that's why I'm thinking some limited contact with Neu D may be added insurance against Lux, and GS.
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Jon Miller
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tell them that we have iron working (by trading for it)
and that what we sent is what we would have had (that you made a mistake in that)
and that we have a better deal for alphabet from our other trading partners (which hopefully we do?)
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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I would suggest writing this
I think that Beta expressed our concerns, but did so improperly. Looking over his messages, he told you where we would have been if we had not traded for Iron Working (With our close neighbors to the north). I must admit that we are somewhat worried about your nation, appearing to research so much faster than us and to be better located also. In any case, we just got Iron Working recently (which means that we could do our deal), but would rather get alphabet much much more cheaply from another source. Is there anyway we could get writing from you for ironworking? It is what the other civ wants right now, actually, but we cannot provide them with it in any timely matter (alphabet is so common for them that they are willing to give it away for cheap).
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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I sent it
with an added statement that we could give them ironworking now for writing later
Jon Miller
Last edited by Jon Miller on 27-01-2003 at 00:01
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Apolyton Time is 00:25. |
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24-01-2003 23:09
Jon's in the chat room with BigFurryMonster. What are they talking about now?
- bit sluggish today. Given the time pressure, once I get the letter together I will send, as opposed to bringing it back here fro further review.
I have to concur with Jon, come clean and tell them that we received iron working through a trade.
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