23-01-2003 01:00									#121
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continued...

(Continued from previous camel)

While I am sending this message (and given your fondness for the number One), there are some other matters that seem worth addressing. First we have still not established who the other nation you have formally met is. Last we heard, you were asking them for consent for you to tell us their identities, and we remain understandably curious.

Second, although you have told us about the lands you call North Estonia, you sounded like there is a third part of the land mass connected to North Estonia. Our cartographers remain highly curious about that land, and as I indicated earlier (although it may have gotten lost amidst the flood of more urgent issues), it would be easier to determine what should be regarded as fair eventual borders between our peoples if we knew more about those other lands.

And third, the road you are building near Lookout Ridge (as we call the mountain Grog is using as his observation post) has raised some eyebrows among our people. There are those who fear (as much as it embarrasses me to say so) that even in spite of your words of peace, you are building it as a route through which to invade us. My own thought is that you are perhaps preparing the way to build a city northeast of Lookout Ridge, but it would set certain people’s minds at ease if you would tell us of your intentions. As Wisdom 4:7 says, “Ignorance breeds fear, but the fruit of knowledge is hope.”

These are all the matters I can think of at this time, and anything I have forgotten should be able to keep for a while longer. My best wishes for your health, and for that of your nation.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

	23-01-2003 01:30									#122
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ok, I am scared now

we wouldn't even have finished iron working by this time

Jon Miller

	23-01-2003 03:19									#123
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I was thinking exactly the same thing when I read this jon. What gives. If they changed research options when we traded bronze working - which they say they did - how didthey research Alphabet in, what 4 or 5 turns, or however long it has been.

Something does not smell right here. They have to have neighbours, or they popped 6 goody huts. If it is neighbours, my suspicion is that they have contact with Neu Demogyptica in the same way we do with Lux.

Or, they are bluffing to see if we will put iron working on the table. Although that seems like a stretch.

The other possibility is that they are in communication with Lux, and thus now know that we have Iron Working. The timing is a bit suspicious as well.

So - what do we do? Remember, if they get iron working, they will know where the sources are and can get cities there faster than we can. We can stall in a couple of ways:

1. Say that until they tell us how they researched it so fast, we feel threatened and are making no deals.

2. Say we have not finished the research yet. We were still 12 turns away when we did the Lux deal.

3. Say that we have new fears about their intent and are thinking about the deal.

	23-01-2003 03:26									#124
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I say use all Three excuses / stall tactics....Mainly because, I for one, would love to hear their answer to all 3 of the statements mentioned by Beta.

	23-01-2003 04:06									#125
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Hmmm - you know how we could accomplish that. It would look weird all in one letter. But, given that they send their FA correspondence to 4 people on the team, 3 of us - jon, Diss, and myself - could all send different PM's back at different times. Mine could be very stately and controlled. Diss's could mention dissension on the team and ask a different question. And jon could write the third one, sort of as the boss of the team, and trying to pull things together. Then again - they may see right through it.

I could start with the first question, and then use a couple of turns delay - and then ask the second question.

I think we should also have a frank chat with Lux - to see if they have been chatting. They may lie about it - but we will have the B.S. meters running at full tilt.

My guess is GS is trading with Neu D.

	23-01-2003 04:07									#126
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I favor 2 or 1

but yah. those sit nicely with my thoughts

they might just be bluffing

Jon Miller

	23-01-2003 04:10									#127
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OK - I will draft up a proposed letter to go back to them. I am not going to rush. I will have it prepared later this evening - and then we can kick it around. I will use points 1 and 2.

If we decide on another tactic, we don't have to send it.

	23-01-2003 04:27									#128
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yes it shows alphabet as 50 beakers.

I don't think they have met Lux, or they wouldn't be willing to trade for their comm frequency.

But perhaps they have met someone else similar to how we have, or there is someone else on the continent. Although Jon said Roleplay was sure that We are the only 2 civs on this continent.

I can't figure it out.

We can mention in our response that we don't plan to invade them, but do plan on placing cities down in the jungle region. If they don't like that they can.. (well don't include that last sentence )

	23-01-2003 05:26									#129
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Here is my proposed letter. I was going for a tone of 'righteous indignation'. Something that will ruffle their feathers and delay things for awhile. And maybe force some answers out of them. It was VERY FUN to write.

If and when this goes, we gotta make sure the workers and settlers are always with spearmen.

Dear Nathan Barclay, of Gathering Storm.

As you can well imagine, your recent letter created somewhat of a stir in Vox Controli.

Perhaps a senator, who will remain un-named, said it best when he quoted from the One Book. The book of Pastures.

Pastures 5, verses 1-4

1. And the cows will graze. And they will eat grass. And they will defecate.

2. And it will be pure and honest, and can be used in the field to help crops grow.

3. And the bulls will graze. And they will eat grass. And they will defecate.

4. But it is neither pure, nor honest. And can not be used for much of anything.

Now, please let me explain. I'm sure you will see why we are perplexed and somewhat disturbed.

When you approached us last regarding this trade, we were 12 turns (approximately 600 years) away from completing our research on iron working. We have been watching carefully our allocation of funds to both the research and the treasury, with an aim to maximizing research, but alas, Vox is obviously not as blessed as your Gathering Storm in gold revenue.

At that point, you had just switched your research efforts and were undertaking your new direction - that of Alphabet. Or so you told us. Now, either you have a magical approach to research, or, you have been trading technology with another contact, which makes a farce of your 'patent' proposal. I, for one, would be curious to know where our knowledge of bronze working has made it to.

So, here we sit, xx number of turns to completing iron working, and you have completed research on Alphabet, which our scientists tell me requires some 50 beekers and should take nearly, but not quite as long as our iron working research, which we have been diligently working on since we came into existance.

So, before there is anymore talk of technology trading, we would like to know what is going on. Simple as that. I trust you can clarify matters for us.

As to the nation that borders us to the north, well, as I said earlier, we have promised not to reveal names. Particularly now where your integrity is much in question on our senate floor. But at least we have been honest as to our contacts. And I will also tell you that we have not concluded any trade deals with our 'other' neighbor. Our intent was to have Gathering Storm as our 'preferred' friends in this world, but that is now much in doubt.

As to the road which so bothers you, well, it is for settlement purposes only. As far as I can recall you have given us no indication of the size of the rest of South Estonia that we cannot see. We on the other hand - have given a fairly detailed description of North Estonia. I have revisited our map and measured it in square vixens, a measurement you may know better as tiles. North Estonia is exactly 31 tiles large.

So - if the people of Gathering Storm want to talk fairness, let's talk. I believe Vox settling the area north of the Sierra Centralis - the mountain range where our warriors are currenly on look-out - is more than a fair sub-division of the continent we share. If you deny us that - well, why not simply deny us existance - in which case - you will have made an enemy for life - as long as that may be.

To conclude, we definitely are building the road to establish new settlements. Thud can remain where he is to confirm who comes and goes. That was the intent of the original idea, or are you as short on memory as you would appear to be on honesty.

And to conclude what I acknolwedge is a somewhat testy letter, I will quote the scriptures of the Storm you quoted to me:

Wisdom 4:7 “Ignorance breeds fear, but the fruit of knowledge is hope.”

Someone there must have written it. Maybe he can explain it to your leaders.

BetaHound, VFA, Vox Controli

	23-01-2003 08:19									#130
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the last bit is a little agressive

but we ahve the save, so I would like you to get it out soon

Jon Miller

	23-01-2003 10:22									#131
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The last part might seem aggressive....but I like it! It lets them know in no uncertain terms that we know that they are "playing with us" and that we demand answers to our questions....Two can play that this game after all.

I say send the message out as is!

Besides, we need those two cities established at the iron deposits before they realize the deposits are there...This letter should go a long way towards stalling.

	23-01-2003 11:07									#132
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actually they did have those posts that described their cartography. I'm not sure what it all means though

	23-01-2003 11:09									#133
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The last part is aggressive yes. And they did describe their cartography, but I'm still not sure about the size.

We can send it out. I would love to gauge their reaction to this. Although they aren't going to like it obviously. We may make an enemy for a very long time .

	23-01-2003 12:21									#134
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or a short time

because we will cease to exist

Jon Miller

	23-01-2003 12:39									#135
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I like to think of the glass as half full.

Oh I made a mistake on the score earlier. We aren't in last place. actually Lux is in last place.

	23-01-2003 12:47									#136
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yah

I realised that when I was playing, but did not mention it

however, that is bad for us and Lux

Jon Miller

	23-01-2003 13:24									#137
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The difference isn't that much right now. Territory explored does increase the score. So obviously we are down on that. And I think we are 1 or 2 techs behind. But other than that we are in the thick of things.

The only problems I see now are juggling the tasks of expansion and a possible war. We are devoting resources to cranking out settlers, but if we are in an imminent war this could be a problem.

	23-01-2003 22:57									#138
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I've given this some more thought, and think we may be over-reacting a bit to GS. Although I'm sure they were not honest on one point. But I also think that they have no other contacts, nor do they have a tech lead. Here's my logic.

They started with masonry and c.burial. They would have researched the wheel right from the start to get chariots (which would have been murder if not for our terrain - if we were in the plains next to them - then I would be scared). Let's assume they are researching at a higher rate than us - ie more city tile improvements and faster growing cities - the wheel is only a 40 beeker tech, so at a faster rate, let's say they finished it when we were half way through iron working (60 beekers).

Then they started on Alphabet - (50 beekers). I'm pretty sure they are not finished. I think they are fishing somewhat with this request.

They picked up pottery from a hut. And they traded with us for bronze working.

They have six techs (actually only five if they have not finished Alphabet) and we have six techs. They have a somewhat faster research rate, but not dramatically. We now have a doubled research rate courtesy of Lux, and improved research at home now that we are starting to improve tiles.

Where they may have lied to us was when they approached us about the bronze working trade. I think they had already finished the wheel, and were underway with Alphabet. They told us they were in between techs to rush us into the trade.

So - I think the situation is OK. We should pull away from them in research courtesy of the Lux deal. But we clearly cannot let GS contact Lux in the short term.

The question comes back to the iron deal. We need to claim one, if not both sources of iron before we do the trade. That is going to take awhile. It will be difficult to drag it out that long - but there really isn't much they can do about it. With swordsmen there would be.

In conclusion, I think that GS may actually be fairly desperate - and somewhat scared. They haven't met anyone yet. They think we have. They envision a stream of Immortals coming over the mountains. I think a toned down but still somewhat indignant letter, combined with us a "woe is us" reference about our lack of land, may be the right response. That will buy a few more turns. And then we can simply say no - and force them to research it themselves. By then we will have both sources of iron.

I'm writing this at noon hour here. I have an early evening meeting and will be back home around 8pm est time.

(one other thought - if we go for the fish-what site first - that city will have to grow once to reach the iron - ie will need a temple. This will take time. There is no site this side of the mountains which can get us the iron with the initial placement. Do we want to consider Witt's city site on the east coast first Gets it with the initial site, but also makes it pretty clear to GS as to what we are up to. I know, I know. I argued the other way around. And there is still some logic to it. But we will need a temple. Could also use a colony - but that is way to obvious - but do we care.)

(and a last thought - but way too late - I don't think we should have done the bronze-wheel trade. Did diddly squat for us, and would have forced them to research bronze - and presumably abandon some research on Alphabet. Ah well, spilt milk. )

	23-01-2003 23:22									#139
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the thing is from their PM it would seem they are only 1 turn away from alphabet. Or they are 1 turn away from trading alphabet. I'm curious how they did this.

	23-01-2003 23:25									#140
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I have another idea for stalling. We won't tell them this yet, because we don't want them to know we already have Iron Working.

Although we could tell them we have it from at trade with the "other" nation- which is true. And we agreed not to trade it to any other nation for 40 turns . A little twist on their patent program.

	24-01-2003 02:53									#141
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Good point Dissident, it would be using their (GS) patent program against them.

See Jon's newest thread concerning getting the alphabet from Lux...Talk about a twist! But maybe we could use Jon's suggestion and yours (ie, tell GS we recieved iron working and alphabet from our northern neighbor with the agreement that we can not trade these advances with anyone else for 20 turns).
That should throw a wrench into their works!

	24-01-2003 03:58									#142
	Got spare money?

re: city sites

I don't know, I guess we'd look for GS trying to grab those sites. I'm just trying to think up a way to find out if Spain is trustworthy.

	24-01-2003 06:26									#143
	Put an end to popups!

sky... why?

(hey - that rhymes )

	24-01-2003 07:13									#144
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the easy way is not to tell Spain/Roleplay anything important

	24-01-2003 07:33									#145
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Besides, we don't have any contact with Spain/Roleplay - so at the present, the point of them being trustworthy is rather mute.

	24-01-2003 18:48									#146
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edit - deleted quote of previous message

Last edited by Beta on 24-01-2003 at 22:57

	24-01-2003 19:07									#147
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound As per jon'a chat with Lux, here is my letter, which I sent this morning, to Lux proposing the Alphabet trade for gold and also informing them of our research time. We need to look at our slider options. If whoever plays the turn next could note the various options down (the realistic ones, inlcuding a loss per turn of say up to 5-6 gold), for discussion purposes, it would be appreciated. Hello CalcII. Greetings to Lux from Vox. I understand that you or another member of Lux have recently been discussing with jon miller the sale of Alphabet as part of our on-going technology deal. To that end, I am proposing a trade of 15 gold immediately, and one gold per turn fro 20 turns in exchange for Alphabet. Also, you had asked about our research time for Mysticism. As of last turn - 2230BC I believe - we had 26 turns to go. However, there may be room to adjust the 'slider' and improve our research time, without bankrupting the treasury. That is under discussion by our esteemed, yet busy, VEC. (Voxian Economic Council). We appreciate that we have a somwhat slower research rate than you. As we have discussed earlier, we have been forced to forego city tile improvements in favor of building a road to ensure we could expand off the limited landmass that is North Estonia. We currently have a worker toiling to catch-up on needed city tile improvements, so we expect our research rate to pick up. I trust all is well with the people of Lux. I look forward to hearing from you on the proposed trade, and as soon as we have concluded our 'slider' discussions, we will let you know. Cheers! BetaHound (ps - also sending this note to BFM, as requested by Jon)

	24-01-2003 19:19									#148
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Looks good Beta - but why did you quote yourself?

	24-01-2003 23:03									#149
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

sound good.

The slider that I did check. We can move to 80% for a -1 loss (I think) and research in 20 turns. 19 next turn of course.

edit: I have exact figures. as of last turn

70% (which we are at) 0 per turn gold, and 26 turns
80% -1 gold per turn, 20 turns
90% -2 gold per turn 16 turns
100% same as 90%

	24-01-2003 23:06									#150
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Because as Eli once pointed out in a early chat - and which has now been carved in stone in punkbass2000's signature, I can't use a keyboard. And now look what I have done. I edited out the original instead of the quote. sigh.

I'm at work when I do some of this stuff, and I have a silly notebook computer on a reasonably high desk, and it is a pain to use. And I try to do some of it a hurry in between staff, or the Commissioner (my boss) coming into my office. Probably not a good idea.

Anyways - here is punkbass' signature. I don't know how long I will have to endure it. What is ironic is that he is quoting the team that is clearly the fastest playing team in the game. Hah - take that. Maybe we should bring that to his attention and have him say something nasty about Legoland instead.

"Flash isn't here [to receive the save file], BetaHound doesnt know how to use a keyboard and I have to go in 5 minutes." - The C3PTWDG, running at full capacity. It's worse than we predicted "