06-04-2003 09:39									#241
	Support Apolyton

Do we really want to give GoW too many Riders? GoW has by far the best terrain we have seen (about as good as terrain gets), and any sizeable imbalance between GoW and ND could just about seal the game.

I'd be in favor of selling them Iron to keep things balanced, but giving them the opportunity for a massive upgrade is not a good idea IMO.

Rushing Courthouses, Aquaducts, and Marketplaces is probably going to pay off more than 25% interest anyways. Not to mention the gains we can make by upgrading our own units.

	07-04-2003 04:13									#242
	Support Apolyton

Good point... however, ND is playing the Arabs, right? GoW might need some help against them, it looks like ND is playing their game better then GoW. And they gain more from their GA, as their UU is cheaper to build.

DeepO

	07-04-2003 04:34									#243
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

ND already dumped a lot of their unit production into Swords, which can't upgrade to Ansars. As far as we know, most the GoW units are Horses, which can upgrade to Riders.

As to how each team is playing... I'm not so sure that ND is doing any better than GoW. GoW has the terrain advantage, Industrious and Militaristic to boot. Against the AI, the lower defense of Ansars doesn't hurt much if any, but against human opponents it really does become a disadvantage in comaparison to Riders. I'm not familiar with using either in MP, but from a statistical standpoint I'd think Ansars vs Riders comes out pretty close in number of shields invested to effectiveness ratio. Ansars will have the numbers advantage 7:6 vs Riders, but Riders will have a better survival rate.

	07-04-2003 05:37									#244
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Not sure... the moment ND declared war on Lux, GoW basically had no offensive units. After that time, nothing is known of what ND built (it had more resources than those 4 swords we've seen), it could have been a pure horses force. So, seeing as they are relatively equal in cities, maybe a little behind on production (but I doubt much), their force should be at least equal GoW's, containing nearly as many horses.

DeepO

	07-04-2003 05:53									#245
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The power graph ratio between the two right now is GoW 109, ND 91. The score graph ratio is in favor of ND, 112 to 94.

My guess is that GoW has been hording gold and units. The wonder build in their capitol (which would be their best settler pump) is part of the reason for their score being low, but with that terrain they must be putting an awful lot into military buildup. Their power edge probably isn't due to number of cities, as their score should be higher if it was.

	09-04-2003 17:22									#246
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Suggested message to GoW:

quote: Hot_Enamel, respected consul of the Glory of War, I trust that you've been informed of Zeit's temporary departure to far-off lands (some place called the U.A.S, or S.U.A, I didn't quite catch the name), and of my assignment to temporarily fill-in for him as the Gathering Storm's ambassador to Glory of War. Until further notice, I ask that all diplomatic mail that would normally be addressed to Zeit be sent my way instead. As you have heard, Vox Controli have made the decision of declaring war on Gathering Storm, a declaration backed with false accusations of treachery. Our military strategists are preparing elaborate defense plans as we speak, which include orders for several units to be upgraded. While we are perfectly capable of funding these upgrades on our own, we are concerned that we will have to momentarily pause our research into the doctrine of Feudalism. My team has the potential of being able to deliver Feudalism in 2 or 3 turns, but not if we are unable to fund both research and military expenditures. I have heard from members of your team that you have found our previous proposal (200 gold or 12 gpt for Feudalism, with an NDA of 7 turns) to be fair, so perhaps you would be interested in hearing what more we have to offer. Gathering Storm wishes to offer Glory of War an upgraded deal for Feudalism. As you know, our previous deal was to provide your team with Feudalism in about 7 or 8 turns from now, and it did not include an exclusivity clause. We are now offering you Feudalism within 3, or possibly (rather, probably) 2 turns, in exchange for 260 gold, to be paid immediately upon the arrival of the save to GoW. This new deal includes an exclusivity clause, which means that GoW would be the first civilization in the world to get Feudalism, and the only civilization other than GS to have this technology for the duration of six turns after you are given it in-game, guaranteed. Alternatively, you can choose a different (longer, or possibly shorter) duration of exclusivity for an according price, if you would like that. Should you choose not to accept this new, upgraded deal, the previous deal would still be on, unless you say otherwise. Additionally, the Gathering Storm is pleased to inform you that we may have the ability to trade for iron with your team sooner than we originally thought possible. I understand that you are seeking a back-up source for your iron, since you have one resource that is too close to ND's territory. I'll be happy to hear any suggestions that you might think of regarding the issue of iron trade. To finalize, Gathering Storm is currently sitting on the save, and we need to know whether you would be interested in this new deal or a similar one before we can pass the save onwards. Please provide us with a definite answer as soon as possible. CC: GhengisFarb, respected leader of the Glory of War.

Edit: please note the added paragraph regarding iron. I thought we should let GoW know that we would be able to trade iron soon, or otherwise they may value Feudalism a lot less.

	09-04-2003 17:33									#247
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I'm not convinced that GoW are our friends. In the current political climate I wouldn't give them a thing. Just my $0.02.

	09-04-2003 17:36									#248
	Remove this text

This deal is exactly like the previous one, only that it will allow us to continue researching and still be able to fund our upgrades and rushes, and we'd be getting more money.
Plus, we can judge GoW's standpoint by their reaction to this deal.

I'm all in favor of sending this letter away.

	09-04-2003 17:54									#249
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

My preference would be to trade with all teams at the same time ATM, we don't really need any more backstabbing, do we.

The point IMHO opinion would be to get the money now(at least, the sooner the better..)

I would still trade it, there is no point in not doing so IMO.

BTW: the reason no one has feud. yet, sets me somewhat at ease, that there isn't any conspyracy. Although I'm surely not convinced..
-
WTF is VOX thinking...

	09-04-2003 18:07									#250
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Hot_Enamel will have to go in about an hour. Please comment quickly so that we can decide whether we want to send this along or not.
I for one am very eager to send this. Yesterday, when I was having a personal chat with Master Zen and somehow got to mention this, he suddenly got very excited. It'd be great if we could get more money for Feudalism, and get the money now.
As for backstabbing, GoW wouldn't do it IMHO. Remember how they confessed about selling our tech to Lego while the NDA was still in effect? It's not clear evidence that they are honest though, because although Lego told us that they didn't tell GoW that we have found out about their violation of the NDA (which means that GoW have chosen to confess, to preserve their integrity), they may have been lying - though I see this as a very remote possibility.

	09-04-2003 18:30									#251
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I really am not sure on this one Shiber. I certainly would prefere to see more posts about this. We still have some time left...

	09-04-2003 18:42									#252
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If we want to give GoW the option of paying us more in order to get Feudalism earlier, and give us the ability to continue researching Feudalism despite Vox's attack, then we have to decide this turn. Every turn that we wait would mean that getting Feudalism earlier would mean less to GoW, and they'd be less inclined towards this deal.

	09-04-2003 20:22									#253
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Do NOT send the message as written. Without our GA, even three turns for Feudalism is iffy; I've already upgraded four warriors to swordsmen, so we can only boost research to 70% this turn. We need to know whether or not we'll be in a GA before we can come up with a delivery date.

Also note that Feudalism would be a mixed blessing for us. Once we get it, we get/have to build 40-shield medieval infantry instead of 30-shield swordsmen (something we somehow missed in our planning thus far). We need to think about that angle before we make a decision.

Also, I don't like the ramifications for relations with the other Bobians if we give GoW an exclusive for several turns. And the war with Vox makes resource trade with Bob impossible for the moment even if we built a harbor because any trade route would go through Voxian cultural borders.

	09-04-2003 21:30									#254
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I won't send it.

It's a pity, though; I'd like us to find some way of being paid for Feudalism now, or possibly next turn.

	10-04-2003 03:08									#255
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

GoW's latest proposal is in the GoW diplo log thread.
We can hold the save for 9 more hours. I suggest that we use this time to finalize this deal, and then we can switch science back to max and send the turn. If we delay this deal by one turn, GoW might not agree to take it.

	10-04-2003 03:13									#256
	Tired of ads?

I think we can't decide this that fast, we need more time. If that means we can't do it right now, but one turn later, so be it.

Shiber, was anything said on their 'war' with Vox? Sure, they might try to use it as a way of getting Feud from us sooner, but if it's a ruse, we would be giving them the opportunity to get to riders faster. That could become dangerous, if all would not be like it shows.

For the moment, I would not mention our doubts that they are pulling our leg, but seriously consider it as a possibility.

DeepO

	10-04-2003 03:14									#257
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I don't want to put up research until after GoW offers the cash. We stand to be left out to dry if we do... "Oops...we'll send it next turn...sorry you don't have the cash you need to upgrade your warriors" isn't something we should leave room for.

	10-04-2003 03:15									#258
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BTW, ever considered that Vox could have gotten a contract on us? GoW could 'honorably' deceive us, if they had a former agreement with Vox in place. One such agreement might include monotheism, and an extra city.

In this case, a contract could be simply a large payment of gold, although it seems unlikely that GoW, who claim to be low on cash, would give that to Vox.

DeepO

	10-04-2003 03:17									#259
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

No iron, no riders.
GoW doesn't have iron connected at the moment, right? The iron source that they're referring to is the one adjacent to Thordoba. Should we become concerned about this, we can always stall trading away iron.

	10-04-2003 03:21									#260
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well, ND has 2 irons (1 connected), and a road connection to GoW. Add to that that 1 turn would be enough for GoW... things might not be as they seem.

DeepO

	10-04-2003 03:24									#261
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I take it that we will wait until our 24 hours expire before we make the final decision. I will be asleep by then, so someone else would have to send the message to GoW.

	10-04-2003 03:54									#262
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Can we even get it in 2 turns? We turned off research last turn. I think it's 3 turns.

I don't like the deal GoW is offering anyways. GF either doesn't understand the game or is just trying to rattle you. WC's destroy Immortals in the flats shield for shield better than Pikes.

	10-04-2003 03:56									#263
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Just read the log, and as always with GoW chats, I didn't like the tone of it. Maybe best that I missed most of it, this hammering really enerves me.

They are underestimating us, yes, but they have reason to. But keeping in mind that possibly GoW is fully aware that Vox is only going after us, this deal shoud not go on without further guarantees.

As to using 900 gold for upgrades: not possible, I think. Vox couldn't have gotten 22 warriors before 1200 BC (when they connected their iron). But add another 95 gold from us, minus maps of Bob (btw, I wouldn't be surprised if that WM also made its way to Legoland), and they could very well have had enough cash for some 15 warrior upgrades... more then they have warriors.

DeepO

	10-04-2003 04:01									#264
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Vox was average with us at 1200BC in military power. That means they had about 10 Warriors to upgrade. I think if they had 12 they would have been strong compared to us.

We know 2 Warriors haven't been upgraded, and they've built at least 1 galley 1 Library/Temple, 2 Spears, and a Settler they gave away. Doesn't leave a whole lot of shields for Immortals.

	10-04-2003 04:02									#265
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BTW, it's unlikely that they could have given Vox 225 gold, keep gold for upgrades, and stay on 100% tech. And being on 100% tech is the only way they could possibly discover Feud in 7 turns. If I'm not mistaken, they are about 10 turns into researching it.

Basically, they are deceiving us, I think. Deal extremely carefully!

DeepO

	10-04-2003 04:13									#266
	Increase the size of your Attachments

If this deal goes through, make sure that you mention to GoW that we want to receive their end of the deal (100 cash + 5 gpt) ASAP, and we want the in-game offer to be approved by the time it reaches us - otherwise we can't use the money in time.

	10-04-2003 04:24									#267
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It can't go through if we can't deliver in 2 turns. I don't think we can even at 100% research.

	11-04-2003 01:37									#268
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GoW seems to be willing to do a 10 turn NDA + 100g up front, +5gpt for Feudalism in 3 turns. They are sitting on the save waiting for our answer. They can send us the gold up front.

	11-04-2003 01:44									#269
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

100 gold up front + 5 gpt is no compensation for getting it early, on the contrary, it costs us more then the initial 200 gold or 12 gpt, only for getting the money 2 turns in advance. We don't need it military, do we?

Other then that, we need time to get deals with all other teams in that time span, so I vote against it.

However, can we resonably be sure we can finish in 5 turns without help? In that case, I would offer them that, and do the same with all teams. We need a strong eta if we are going to sell this tech.

DeepO

	11-04-2003 01:51									#270
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I agree, it still isn't much of a deal. At least we know we won't have to bind the sale with that sea ROP junk...

I think we should stick to the initial offering. The 2 turn stuff was just a feeler to see if we couldn't profit more by finishing earlier. Since we didn't get a better offer, the longer we delay the better.

Something isn't right about GoW. If they are lying about Vox landing BOB, that almost certainly puts them as a backer of Vox in this war. In that case Feudalism will slip into Vox's hands shortly (they could go as far as to say Vox stole it... as they have the embassy) after GoW gets it I'm thinking, NDA or not.

We can cut off Vox's Iron in about 10 turns I'm thinking. If we can somehow keep Feudalism out of their hands until then things will go so much smoother.