24-06-2003 23:52									#241
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Rhothaerill, we've told them many times that there is not much up there. Most recently during the border negotiations.

	25-06-2003 00:13									#242
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Oh. Sorry I missed that. I'm still fairly new to the ISDG and haven't had the time to go through all the old posts.

	25-06-2003 10:55									#243
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Well MZ has told me in chat that he chatted with Lucky earlier on. Lucky asked that a clause be added preventing us from trading maps with CDG for the duration of hostilities.

Althought the exemption is gone, we wouldn;t have traded it with them in any case and, as MZ points out, this shows CFC are nervous about CDG enough to warrant this addition.

	25-06-2003 11:06									#244
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yeah, they found out the ommission but looked at it just like an oversight, not like us trying to screw them or something. As was agreed, I immediatley told Lucky that it would be absolutely no problem to change it, all that would be added would be the following clause:

quote: - Concerning the fourth party on this continent, Elucidia, which might also take an active role in this situation of war, Apolyton refrains from trading maps with them as well for the duration of the war.

sounds good to me

He was going to send me the updated proposal since they were voting on it.

Check out the chat in the correspondence thread.

	25-06-2003 11:29									#245
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MZ, well done. It will be good to get this done, finally.

Rhothaerill, no worries. I doubt anyone of us knows everything. Sooo much happens what with the AltSP and all the diplomacy. Keep asking questions, there are those who do not know as you do not, and you never know, you might turn over a rock heretofore left unmolested. That would be good.

	25-06-2003 11:56									#246
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I liked also the fact that this whole thing revealed that GCA is in fact worried about CDG, which makes it less likely that CDG and GCA might ally to utterly crush CFC, an idea which was floated around once or twice in the chat.

	27-06-2003 01:21									#247
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Of course CGA is worried about CDG. With immortals that close, I would be too. To be honest, I thought the "lets go after CFC" idea was a bunch of nonsense if only for geographical reasons.

	04-07-2003 02:20									#248
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We (MZ, WB, and I) had a chat this morning with Lucky of GC. The entire chat is posted in our Correspondence thread.

Lucky wants Apolyton to attack CDG. He stated several reasons (propoganda) but it boils down to them wanting some help in fighting CDG. Most interestingly, he revealed to us that CDG broke the NAP with GC, and that CDG and GC were informal allies ... they had an agreement to band together to fight the "big bully" Civ sites. When GC went to war with CFC, CDG was going to take care of us.

While we warned GC about CDG, they didn't take us seriously. Thought it was just CFC propoganda. Thought that their friendship and alliance with CDG would hold ... and they admitted that if they split their forces they wouldn't be able to effectively fight either side, so they went all-out on CFC.

Mistake? Perhaps not. They revealed that CDG's stack is 5 immortals and 1 spear. That's it for now. That's a manageable group if they can poprush a few units and attack the immortals on open ground. They also desperately want HBR from us...

We asked for them to allow the Princess to pass through their waters. Lucky told me he's have to poll about it. I later told him that we'd be willing to do an early trade if they'd be willing to let the Princess through. Lucky seemed inclinded to do so, and we sent a proposal to them. WhiteBandit should post it shortly.

--Togas

Last edited by Togas on 04-07-2003 at 02:27

	04-07-2003 02:25									#249
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A nice 20-turn wait will determine if this is a ruse by GCA and CDG. It will also put us within The Republic range.


Dominae

	04-07-2003 02:30									#250
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Little do they all realize that they're just setting themselves up for Apolytonian continental - and eventually, global domination...

	04-07-2003 04:28									#251
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Hmmm, the possibility of a ruse has crossed my mind too. We shall see, and we certainly will not rush into anything.

I wish we had got the info on their ETA to Polytheism. Can the contact be renewed soon? I would really like to know that before giving a quick decision on early HBR for Myst trade.

	04-07-2003 04:59									#252
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quote: Most interestingly, he revealed to us that CDG broke the NAP with GC, and that CDG and GC were informal allies ... they had an agreement to band together to fight the "big bully" Civ sites. When GC went to war with CFC, CDG was going to take care of us.

Why am I amused at their situation now that they admitted that. Most of us suspected that like 40 turns or more ago though


I personally think we should explain to Lucky that our hands are tied due to a NAP with CDG, and that as a result the best we can do is remain neutral until that runs its course. This accomplishes two things:
1) While it won't satisfy GCA, they have to accept it. It also probally will sound better to them than "Apolyton wants to stay neutral, have fun dying btw...should of taken our advice morons." Just don't make them think we signed the NAP due to the impending war, shouldn't be that hard to accomplish, just say it was part of our long term border arrangement.
2) It makes us look very honorable, especially in contrast to CDG's recent action.

Downside: If we take this route, we will take a bigger image hit if we do end up breaking the NAP later due to the situation demanding it.

	04-07-2003 05:25									#253
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I think this is obvious, but just in case:

Under no situation should we point out to GCA that we ever have any intention of attacking CDG. Using the NAP is a good excuse, we should just say that long term plans after that are too far away to discuss. If we act even a bit interested in attacking them now (or immediately following the NAP), then GCA is pretty likely to point that out to them in an attempt to get them to hold back...at least if they are even halfway intelligent.

	04-07-2003 06:29									#254
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Regarding the new "treaty" we said we would work out with GCA (as can be found in the chat).

This is probably the crappiest treaty I have ever written, in terms of how easy it is to read My excuse is that it is too damn hot :P

Anyways, comments and suggestions before we send it on?

quote: Apolyton and Gamecatcher Alliance agree to the following terms: Part I This treaty ammends a tech agreement between GCA and Apolyton. Whereas before the technologies were not to be exchanged until everything was completed, this updates the treaty. GCA will offer Mysticism to Apolyton the next time they play and Apolyton will offer Horse Back Riding as soon as the turn is in their hands. This agreement does not change any other aspect of the prior tech treaty: GCA will still be required to offer Apolyton Polytheism and Apolyton will offer GCA Map Making once the techs have been completed. Part II This ammends the NAP between GCA and Apolyton. GCA agrees to let the Apolyton ship Princess of Apolyton through their borders. All other aspects of the NAP will remain in effect (i.e; No units may come within a one tile radius without prior consent).

	08-07-2003 03:39									#255
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I have received the following letter from Lucky of GCA:

quote: Hi, we promised to keep you up to date about the aggression and atrocities of the barbarian nation of Elucidia. They are constantly sending unaccepted peace offers to distract us but keep marching forward (is there a bug I don´t know of? :S) and heading directly to our capital, even though they shouldn´t know where it is. And along the way they are not solely undertaking military actions, but they are commiting atrocities everywhere. They have just RAZED a civilian outpost where not a single military unit was stationed nor one in sight. We asked them to refrain from such crimes, but they didn´t reply to that either. They seem not to have the slightest idea what civil means. In any case, we are ready to confront them soon, your gracious offer of trading HBR sooner will help a lot. If we survive their onslaught, be advised that we will take our armies and punish those crimes, atrocities and immense treachery to the fullest extent. We would still appreciate any help you could offer. And lastly, your galley has now the official permission to pass through our waters under a few conditions: 1. Only one single ship may sail along our coastline. 2. That single ship must stay as far away as possible from our shores. 3. Not a single unit may be landed in or near our territory. 4. Apolytonia will trade it´s acquired map knowledge to Gamecatcher, a) Under any circumstances this will concern the seas around our peninsula. b) Should no obvious connection to more land be sighted, trade of the remaining new discoveries will be commited on fair terms, e.g. map for map or with a small (<10) fee. I hope you can agree to those terms. Lucky Gamecatcher Alliance

--Togas

	08-07-2003 03:49									#256
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Can't say I'm pleased with this, but we can work with it. Last thing we want to do is tie up the Princess with pointless negotiations or have to force the issue. Frankly, GC could do nothing to stop Princess from traveling through their water, no ships, nor are they in any position to make demands no us ... however, I believe the following letter to Lucky may settle this matter:

Proposed letter to Lucky
We are horrified to hear of your losses and of the war crimes committed by the Elucidians. We have been optimistic about the war, seeing how your people did not lose any cities in the first few turns of it, but the recent loss makes the whole affair much darker. We just hope that the technology of Horseback Riding will help aid your people in turning back the Elucidian invaders and turn the tide in this war.

We are happy to hear that you will grant the Princess access to your coasts. We agree to your terms with some minor clarifications:

We will offer our WM to you once our exploration is over, and only after the GCA/CFC war is concluded. We are treaty bound not to trade our WM to either of you until the war is over.

Price of the map will be determined by what, if anything, we find. We'll notify you of the discoveries (if any) and then be happy to negotiate a price.

The Map will be offered after our voyage of exploration is complete.

Agreed?

--Togas

	08-07-2003 03:54									#257
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I say no to agreeing to these terms. Our NAP expires with them on turn 89. They want HBR for Myst now, I say we hold off on that until they agree to let us explore. The NAP said nothing about sea going vessels. We can make a case that the NAP does not apply to them and that a single Galley is no threat either.

Why do they get the benefits of map exploration from us when we will spend only two turns in their waters? It is not a fair agreement. If they do not agree, we simply go anyways, what are they going to do? Declare War! We will not be pushed around anymore, by any team!

We have no border agreement with them. There's a barb encampment on the Southern tip of GCA's land mass; what if we want to pick it off? It's not in GCA's territory, we should be able to stop and take that encampment out. I would agree to not landing any units within the territory.

But under no circumstances am I willing to give them our WM, again. Think about the last WM deal, they screwed with us on the last go around. Not again I say, do we give them any of their demands. They are in no position to demand anything.

	08-07-2003 03:56									#258
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quote: Originally posted by Togas The Map will be offered after our voyage of exploration is complete. Agreed? --Togas

Which would be somehwere in the year 1942 AD!

If they would agree to that, they are dumber than CDG!

	08-07-2003 04:21									#259
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I understand the frustration, I'm not all that pleased with their "terms" myself, but we have already given them HBR for Mysticism, and it does us no good to play hardball with them at this point in the game. We do have a border agreement about entering cultural territory, and we're not going to blatantly break it at this early stage in the game. Instead, let's cleverly sidestep this possible landmine...

We are going to SELL them our WM, which seems clear from their letter and ours. We're not giving them it.

We are not going to sell it to them until after their war with CFC is over .... AND ....

Not until our Voyage of Discovery is complete, which will be a long, long time from now. We alone will know when it is done.

All we need is the keys to get in, once we're in there's nothing they can do about it. Once we're through we have all of the power in the relationship, we control when the sale happens, if it happens at all, and under what terms.

Let's stay our hand, appear to give in, and keep quiet about what we have in mind. They are not asking much from us in the big picture.

--Togas

	08-07-2003 04:54									#260
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Yes, go ahead and send that letter. If they accept

If not, we think think of something even more clever.

In the mean time, we will be recieving the save soon. That means that on the next move we will enter their territory with the Galley. Perhaps is is better not to reply to Lucky's letter unitl after we have recieived and sent the save along, that way if they say 'no' we already are in their territory and can move out on the next turn while we continue discussions.

	08-07-2003 05:34									#261
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Didn't they already agree to let us pass through their territory in exchange for trading HBR early? Didn't we already give them HBR early? Now I know it wasn't agreed to in writing and formalized with the UN yet (or was it?), but I think we should let them know we view this as changing the terms after we have already given them what they wanted out of the deal.

I think we should tell them that under the circumstances we feel that agreeing to additional terms is not fair. However, I also think we should also tell them that we will never have any problem with trading our world maps with them for a fair price when we are not treaty bound not to, and that we have no intention of landing any units within their culturial borders as doing so clearly violates the NAP we have with them.

If they press us on it, then we should go ahead and give in (under the conditions that Togas gave), and take a long, long time exploring.....heck GCA might not even exist by the time we finish exploring.........

If they refuse to let us explore without a time frame on the map trade, then we should just say in careful terms:
"We are sorry, due to pre-existing agreements, which *you* made us agree to by the way, we cannot trade world maps until the wars on this continent are concluded. We cannot put a time frame on such an event, thus we cannot agree to trade our map within any specified time frame. Furthermore, we believe we have already paid you in full for the passage of our peaceful vessel. We do not see a need to renegotiate this deal, and will be passing as quickly as possible. "

Try to work with them, but if they refuse, then let them report us to the UN and declare war over it if they want :P

Last edited by wervdon on 08-07-2003 at 05:44

	08-07-2003 06:13									#262
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They told us 'yes' in chat. That was the basis on which I accepted Myst for HBR. Coming at us with demands after the HBR trade is not cricket.

If we need to, we can fall back on the chat and tell them to stuff it. I doubt it will come to that though.

	08-07-2003 06:44									#263
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We'll have destroyed them by the time our journey is finished. Agreeing to what Togas has laid out is not a problem.

	08-07-2003 07:21									#264
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letter sent to Lucky:

quote: Lucky, We are horrified to hear of your losses and of the war crimes committed by the Elucidians. We have been optimistic about the war, seeing how your people did not lose any cities in the first few turns of it, but the recent loss makes the whole affair much darker. We just hope that the technology of Horseback Riding will help aid your people in turning back the Elucidian invaders and turn the tide in this war. We are happy to hear that you will grant the Princess access to your coasts. We already agreeed that trading you Horseback Riding early was in exchange for your agreement to allow the Princess passage through your waters, so it came as somewhat of a shock to us that you would put conditions on her travel, however, I have reviewed those Conditions with our Consuls and team and we will do our best to respect your wishes during our travel through your coastal waters. I do need to clear up a few things, though: We will offer our WM to you for purchase once our exploration is over, and only after the GCA/CFC war is concluded. We are treaty bound not to trade our WM to either of you until the war is over. Price of the map will be determined by what, if anything, we find. We'll notify you of the discoveries (if any) and then be happy to negotiate a price at that time. My Consuls have asked me to ask you how long it will be until you have finished Polytheism. Please let me know. --Togas, Foreign Affairs Minister of Apolyton

	08-07-2003 07:24									#265
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The "for purchase" part is at least as good as the when our voyage is over part

That means we are only bound by agreement to make them an offer Its not our fault if they think the price is too high :P

	08-07-2003 16:47									#266
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"Hi Lucky, we found a 1-tile tundra island... who knows, it might have oil, we will sell you the map for 500g "

	08-07-2003 18:29									#267
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Gosh, I thought I was reading panag's post for a moment there!

	08-07-2003 19:35									#268
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This is Lucky's response to my most recent letter:

quote: We thank you for your kind words of support and hope that there is still light at the end of the cave. :S Concerning our conditions for the right of passage, well, we already agreed on #1, #2 and #3 in the chat, I´ve just formalized those issues: 1. Only one single ship may sail along our coastline. 2. That single ship must stay as far away as possible from our shores. 3. Not a single unit may be landed in or near our territory. I understand that you have a problem with #4, but it is meant more as what we agreed on already and what you wrote back. Let me rephrase it: 4. Apolytonia will offer it´s acquired map knowledge to Gamecatcher for a fair price depending on the discoveries made. The actual point of what we did add as a condition is the following though, and we do find that kind of appropriate: 4. a) Under any circumstances this will concern the seas around our peninsula. Let me rephrase that as well: 4. a) Discoveries made around our peninsula will be free of cost and not count towards the final price. I do think that is fair as such a discovery would more or less only concern us, at least primarely and for the moment. Points #1-3 are not negotiable, passage was granted only for a single galley on an exploration mission. Point 4 is what you wrote back, and we´d like to see the amendment accepted as well. Concerning your final question, I cannot say for sure now, I´ll get back to you once we have the save. But of course this treachery from CDG has required us to change priorities again, which could sum up to another delay of a few turns. I´m sorry, but you can understand that research is not our primary concern right now, especially after losing a civilian settlement whose only accountable contribution to our empire was in fact commerce and trade. Lucky

My advice: We don't reply. We're in his waters, the material issues are settled, let's keep on cruisin' and we'll deal with this later on down the line, as we are not giving them a piece of the map for free as we cannot trade just a piece of our WM.

--Togas

	08-07-2003 21:24									#269
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I'd say he's out of luck, he should of thought about asking for a share in our discoveries before he took HBR and told us to go ahead and cross the border. Changing the terms of the deal after the fact just is not acceptable, even though what he is asking for is not unreasonable.

If they want our map after the discoveries, then they will have to negotiate for it.

And good call just ignoring them until we are through their territory, then later we can say that we never agreed to the ammendment (especially if we discover something we want to keep secret, otherwise we can just tell him we found nothing near his shores).

	08-07-2003 22:30									#270
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Lucky is out of luck :P What can GCA do? They cannot edit the agreement after it was made. And if GCA is going to get upset what are they going to be able to do? Declare war? Thats three civs on one. Is it a possibility that this war has been a set up. And all three civs will go against us? I know it is not very likely but if there was some sort of plan could we defend it? There is also a chance CFC, CDG and GCA make peace. So GCA just sits back and re-builds there cities while CDG and CFC goes to war with us. Then after they could easily take out GCA. Thats if we do get defeated. CDG and CFC now have the whole continent. Then it would eventually be CFC vs. CDG with CFC winning. Then CFC takes the whole continent.

I have a question. Who is our Ambassador to the UN?