17-06-2003 00:16									#211
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After reading that log.....If I didn't know better, I'd think you were sincerely trying to negotiate a cease fire.....do we not want the other civs on this continent to beat each other to a bloody pulp? Although I admit it'd be better if they waited about 15-20 turns and then did so

	17-06-2003 00:52									#212
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CDG attacks GCA while GCA is at war with CFC.

CDG builds lots of Immortals. GCA's army is fighting CFC. CDG captures many GCA cities. CDG goes into a golden age. CDG builds MORE Immortals.

Thus, by the time we want to attack CDG, CDG will have more land and more Immortals if a war takes place. This is bad. Thus, we mediate.

	17-06-2003 01:58									#213
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Only one problem with your equation, Trip. CDG is in no position to build lots of anything.

I agree with F-P. GCA beating up on CFC and being slightly weakened by CDG before they turn around and smack them is the best thing for us.

Think about it. CDG's GA will be blown in despotism with a bunch of crappy little cities. When we get to them, they will be over stretched at best, with minimal production ability and our GA will just be starting. Oh, and GCA will be very unlikely to come to their assistance. In a word, they will be SOL.

	17-06-2003 02:07									#214
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I agree with Fried-Psitalon and nye: if everyone fights but us, we'll come out on top.

I really do not understand the point in trying to "make peace" between all those nations. Are any of those teams likely to pull ahead without a big hit to their economy (are we in a position to know this)?


Dominae

	17-06-2003 02:36									#215
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Despotic GA with half your cities buried arse deep in jungle= big hit to their economies.

Persia's GA will double the number of shields produced in any square that produces them- for 3, maybe 4 cities, that number of shields that they will get as a bonus is less than TWO.

Any Golden Age that Persia gets right now should be called a "Pyrite Age" instead. I hope..no, I PRAY that they trigger that Golden Age *VERY* soon.

	17-06-2003 02:41									#216
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Yes, but the only problem with that is that CDG won't go to war with anyone unless we do so as well...

Meaning they'll be building up units and not using them. More for us to deal with later...

	17-06-2003 02:42									#217
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I am having troubles keeping up to date with all the diplo events now... barely manage to do the reports (and I am still late every time! ).

So I haven't read all the logs... but I believe I would also lean towards letting others fight each other, It should help us more than getting heavily involved in negotiating for peace... eventually perhaps even succeeding.

All the dead units will be shields lost for our rivals. CDG blowing up their GA with their despotic jungle empire will just produce one more unit of jungle fever in every jungle tile they work...

Really, I would let them start that war...

	17-06-2003 02:44									#218
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I'm not sure I believe that so much- if they KNOW that GCA is getting beat on, and they KNOW that GCA has useful, tasty cities, and they KNOW that War Elephants will be coming, but their time with their Immortals is now...

CDG is a bit dimwitted, but they can see an opportunity when it arises. What we should NOT do is tell CDG that we warned GCA of their possible intentions!! That forestalls the war AND angers CDG- two losses with no good gain.

	17-06-2003 02:47									#219
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let them fight..unless we are really concerned about CDG cleaning out CGA as a result and gaining lots of territory. Let them build swords (or immortals) instead of settlers.

	17-06-2003 02:48									#220
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This isn't about CDG. This is about GCA and CFC. Unless WE agree to help attack GCA, CDG has declared it WILL NOT GET INVOLVED. Instead, they'll build up units in case an opportunity to attack GCA arises (which they probably won't do because they KNOW we're a threat to them, which is why they aren't getting involved in the first place).

	17-06-2003 02:56									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Trip This isn't about CDG. This is about GCA and CFC. Unless WE agree to help attack GCA, CDG has declared it WILL NOT GET INVOLVED. Instead, they'll build up units in case an opportunity to attack GCA arises (which they probably won't do because they KNOW we're a threat to them, which is why they aren't getting involved in the first place).

If I am not mistaken, our sims showed that the only way for CDG to keep pace with us to at least a certain degree is to go for a massive worker production NOW, taking up on their jungle. If they build units instead, waiting for their opportunity, it's good for us, is it not?

	17-06-2003 03:06									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Trip This isn't about CDG. This is about GCA and CFC. Unless WE agree to help attack GCA, CDG has declared it WILL NOT GET INVOLVED. Instead, they'll build up units in case an opportunity to attack GCA arises (which they probably won't do because they KNOW we're a threat to them, which is why they aren't getting involved in the first place).

hi ,

and what if those two rally against us , ...

" your enemy's enemy is my friend , ...... "

have a nice day

	17-06-2003 03:12									#223
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , and what if those two rally against us , ... " your enemy's enemy is my friend , ...... " have a nice day

I doubt it, since GCA is now officially at war with CFC (as confirmed in a mediated chat that MZ hosted. Logs should be posted shortly).

	17-06-2003 03:43									#224
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Agreeing with Vondrack here. The only way that CDG can keep up with us is NOT to build units, but to develop- they're way behind. So IF they are able to resist the red dripping meat that will be GCA once the war gets underway - and I think that's unlikely; if they're smart, they'll take the risk and grab some land - then CDG will STILL have to develop intelligently- which further evidence STILL suggests that they will not do - in order to catch us.

Don't forget the basic equation here- CDG's expansion methods need to be RADICALLY different in order to stop us. If they burn units heading south, they merely make things even worse. We're looking at "real easy" vs "What a joke easy" in difference here. By all means let's encourage CDG to go south- it will make our lives easier - but even if they don't, we have nothing to fear.

I'm betting CDG will use their immortals southward (they are running out of useful time for that unit, after all), but even if they don't, it is a VERY safe bet they won't suddenly grow a brain and figure out how to develop to beat us.

	17-06-2003 04:54									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon By all means let's encourage CDG to go south- it will make our lives easier - but even if they don't, we have nothing to fear. I'm betting CDG will use their immortals southward (they are running out of useful time for that unit, after all), but even if they don't, it is a VERY safe bet they won't suddenly grow a brain and figure out how to develop to beat us.

Already done. The reason the NAP/border issue was pressing is that they needed the NAP to feel secure so that they in turn could make CFC more secure with assurances of assistance.

I severely doubt they would have pressed us for the NAP ('it must be signed now') if they had any intention of immediately breaking it by attacking us. No, it was so that the immortals on our border could be withdrawn and sent south.

	17-06-2003 05:34									#226
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Well now that war has been declared on our continent, we come to this little clause in our NAP with GCA.

quote: In the event that war is declared on or by any nation that Apolyton or GCA is in contact with, this agreement may be re-negotiated upon the agreement of both parties.

The question is, do we take this up with GCA and renegotiate the NAP (and throw in some concessions from them... like their world map?) or just let it go?

The war ultimately doesn't affect us, and there is no need to renegotiate the NAP at all. But just tossing ideas around.

	17-06-2003 07:58									#227
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Not a terrible idea from the "gaining resources" department, but I think GCA would remember us trying to kick them when they were down later on, by pressing for concessions. It seems the majority of the team wants to stay out of this altogether, so let's just pretend we don't know there's a war going on and smile nicely at GCA.

	17-06-2003 08:02									#228
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I agree, let it go. Unless there are many who wish to do otherwise, but I would advise strongly against picking a moment of weakness to press an advantage against the people we will need understanding from (at a minimum) when our own plans go into effect.

	17-06-2003 09:05									#229
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I agree. We can possibly use it later for some unforseen purpose, but for now it doesn't do us any good.

	17-06-2003 13:09									#230
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Yep, let's save our loopholes for a time we will really need them.

	17-06-2003 16:56									#231
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Plus, it only says that the NAP may be "re-negotiated upon the agreement of both parties" So, if GCA doesn't agree, there's nothing to renegotiate.

	21-06-2003 10:19									#232
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Draft proposal to GCA regarding map trade (map elements same as treaty with CFC... see CFC thread)

quote: APOLYTONIA AND GAMECATCHERESE MAP TRADE DEAL The nations of Apolyton and the Gamecatcher Alliance (GCA), in the spirit of maintaining a lasting friendship and mutually beneficial relationship, hereby agree to a trade of world maps. To ensure an even trade, all initial map trades between Apolyton and Fanatikou/GCA will take place on the same turn, as to ensure neither nation obtains the map of its enemy during this transaction. This will be accomplished by simultaneously gifting its world map to both, and receiving Fanatikou’s and GCA’s maps on the following turn. The mechanics of this trade are as follows: 1) Upon ratification of this agreement, Apolyton shall gift (i.e. send accepted) its World Map to GCA. 2) Upon receiving and accepting Apolyton’s gifted World Map, GCA shall gift to Apolyton its own World Map in the following turn. Furthermore: - Once Apolyton obtains the world maps of Fanatikou and GCA, Apolyton is bound by this treaty to refrain from trading its updated map to either Fanatikou or GCA for the duration of the war between these two as well as Elucidia during the same time frame. This treaty shall come into effect the turn that Apolyton gifts its World Map simultaneously to the receiving parties. Any breach of this treaty will be considered illegal and reported to the United Nations. -Master Zen Deputy Foreign Minister of Apolyton

	21-06-2003 10:24									#233
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Looks fine to me MZ, though I thought we might do the WM for Gold thing? What happened to that idea?

	24-06-2003 11:04									#234
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sent as follows:

quote: APOLYTONIA AND GAMECATCHERESE MAP TRADE DEAL The nations of Apolyton and the Gamecatcher Alliance (GCA), in the spirit of maintaining a lasting friendship and mutually beneficial relationship, hereby agree to a trade of world maps. The mechanics of this trade are as follows: 1) Upon ratification of this agreement, Apolyton shall gift (i.e. send accepted) its World Map to GCA. 2) Upon receiving and accepting Apolyton’s gifted World Map, GCA shall gift to Apolyton its own World Map in the following turn. Furthermore: - Because of the situation of war between GCA and Fanatikou (CFC), should Apolyton decide to trade maps with these two nations, the trade shall be done on the same turn following the same mechanic established above as to disallow the possibility of either nation to obtain the map of its enemy via this trade. - Once Apolyton obtains the world map of GCA, Apolyton is bound by this treaty to refrain from trading its updated map to CFC for the duration of the war between these two nations. - This treaty shall come into effect the turn that Apolyton gifts its World Map to GCA. Any breach of this treaty will be considered illegal and reported to the United Nations. -Master Zen Deputy Foreign Minister of Apolyton

$10 to anyone who can spot the loophole

	24-06-2003 17:46									#235
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quote: This treaty shall come into effect the turn that Apolyton gifts its World Map to GCA.

Is this the loophole? That we can back out of the trade if we want to, but once we start it their bound to finish it?

	24-06-2003 20:21									#236
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The fact that you only said we won't trade with CFC but ignored CDG which might turn around and give it to CFC perhaps?

	24-06-2003 21:13									#237
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quote: Originally posted by wervdon The fact that you only said we won't trade with CFC but ignored CDG which might turn around and give it to CFC perhaps?

Apparently that's it. And I got it first.

This looks fine to me, as loopholes are always nice (and a bit of fun too!). If we are called on it of course we back down, but what they don't know won't harm them....

For the moment anyway.

	24-06-2003 21:22									#238
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It's not really a "loophole" that will undo this deal, it's really an implied exemption for us to trade with anyone that's not CFC or GCA.

I doubt we'd want to trade our WM to CDG anyhow unless we got a very generous offer from them, and how likely is that?

--Togas

	24-06-2003 22:15									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Togas It's not really a "loophole" that will undo this deal, it's really an implied exemption for us to trade with anyone that's not CFC or GCA. I doubt we'd want to trade our WM to CDG anyhow unless we got a very generous offer from them, and how likely is that? --Togas

We might have put in a clause preventing either CFC or GCA from trading our WM to CDG, at least for awhile.

	24-06-2003 23:10									#240
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quote: Originally posted by dejon We might have put in a clause preventing either CFC or GCA from trading our WM to CDG, at least for awhile.

I agree with that. I still think that if CDG finds out our expansion area doesn't go too much farther north (though granted a lot of cities will still fit in that area) then they would start preparing for war with us sooner.