28-06-2003 01:47									#91
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tech agreement to send to CFC:

quote: Apolyton and CFC agree to the following: Apolyton has agreed to trade CFC Mapmaking for Horseback Riding to help advance our good friendship and the goodwill between our nations. We wish to continue to trade technologies and advance the goodwill between us by agreeing to this future trade agreement. Fanatikou hereby promises to research Construction and, upon completion, to offer Construction to Apolyton. Apolyton promises to offer Code of Laws and Philosophy to Fanatikou immediately upon receiving the offer of Construction, and to accept. Thus, Fanatikou and Apolyton hereby agree to trade Construction for Code of Laws + Philosophy as soon as these techs are aquired. Furthermore, both sides agree not to aquire these technologies from any other party.

--Togas

	28-06-2003 01:50									#92
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Sounds great, lets send it.

	28-06-2003 02:01									#93
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I like it, and from the chat yesterday, it seems they like it too....

	06-07-2003 11:14									#94
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quote: [23:44] [Trip] destroyed GCA yet? [23:45] [Octavian_X] Just give us a few turns (and tanks :-D) [23:45] [Trip] [23:45] [Trip] I thought they were right next to you [23:46] [Octavian_X] We're still working on repelling their invasion force. We've destroyed all but one sword and spear. [23:46] [Trip] really? [23:46] [Trip] impressive [23:47] [Octavian_X] Still stuck in the jungle? [23:48] [Trip] you know us [23:49] [Trip] we're curious what CDG is up to [23:49] [Trip] they attacked GCA but haven't taken any cities or anything? [23:49] [Trip] do you know what they're doing? [23:49] [Octavian_X] I could reveal more, but don't know if I have the liberty of doing so... [23:50] [Octavian_X] ask Michias Rex (damn, I don't think I'll ever spell that name right) [23:50] [Octavian_X] He told me all I know.... [23:51] [Trip] so are you working with them then? [23:51] [Trip] coordinated attacks? [23:51] [Octavian_X] not at all [23:51] [Trip] oh [23:51] [Trip] so them attacking was a surprise? [23:52] [Octavian_X] very much so. I didn't think they'ed do anything [23:53] [Trip] have you talked at all with GCA then? [23:53] [Trip] since apparently you're winning now (or at least not losing ) [23:54] [Octavian_X] Nope. We're not giving in until we've launched our own offensive. [23:54] [Trip] to capture Balance of Power? [23:55] [Octavian_X] hopefully, yes [23:56] [Trip] ahhh, so you're building up a big army [23:56] [Trip] I like big armies [23:56] [Trip] lots o' Horsemen [23:57] [Octavian_X] :-D [23:58] [Trip] how long do you think it will take? [23:58] [Trip] we don't know if your economy is running full steam [23:58] [Trip] like to do some tech trades again [23:59] [Octavian_X] It's 14 turns till constrution. [23:59] [Trip] ah, cool [23:59] [Octavian_X] Obviously, since we're smaller than the rest of the freakin' world, it may be a while. [23:59] [Trip] aquaducts [00:00] [Trip] haha [00:03] [Trip] do we have any current trades on the books? [00:03] [Trip] I forget if we do or not [00:04] [Octavian_X] We give you construction for your CoL and Philosophy

Just a quick chat with Octavian of CFC to see if I could get any info from him.

Basically:

They claim to be wooping up on the GCA army.
They haven't been working with CDG AT ALL.
They plan on launching their own offensive soon.
14 turns to Construction (we trade them Philo + COL for Construction).

	14-07-2003 09:15									#95
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From OctavianX.

I suggest we accept.

quote: APOLYTONIA AND FANATIKOU HEREBY AGREE: That we are brothers, bound together in our common desire to survive and prosper. As the world prospers most in times of peace, we wish for there to be peace between us. In order to ensure that peace we hereby agree to the following: 1) There shall be no war or conflict between us. Our units shall not attack each other, nor shall they enter the cultural borders of the other party without permission. This shall be considered a Non-Aggression Pact. There shall also be a 1-tile "buffer zone" around cultural borders. If this buffer must be breached for any reason, warning should be given in advance. 2) We agree to cooperate and communicate regarding any diputes over settlements or scouting. We agree to work out our differences in a chat, should any differences arise. 3) This agreement shall last 30 turns after it is ratified by both parties. This agreement shall be open for renegotiation after 25 turns have passed. ~Octavian X of Fanatikou ~_________ of Apolytonia (please forward to mongoose)

	14-07-2003 20:45									#96
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I love it!

How long until we likely attack CFC anyway? 50 turns? 60? Any idea?

The time will come, though...

	14-07-2003 23:47									#97
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I don't think we have ANY definite timetable for dealing with CFC. In all honesty, I think that unless we make contact with the other continent sooner than we are ready to either make war on CFC or not, we should leave them and work out a peaceable arrangement- we don't want to be left behind because we were researching techs all alone. Besides, splitting our continent in half is better than the other guys splitting their continent by four.

	15-07-2003 00:23									#98
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Hmmm ... no borders?

The NAP is fine. Simple, nothing we haven't seen before. Only possible issue is allowing our ships thru their waters.

--Togas

	15-07-2003 00:35									#99
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Just an interesting little talk with Octavian yesterday:

quote: Session Start: Sun Jul 13 23:25:30 2003 Session Ident: Octavian_X [23:25] [Trip] are you guys going to be attacking BOP soon? [23:26] [Octavian_X-Away] We're focusing right now on killing a GCA GL we accidentially created. [23:26] [Trip] what? where? [23:27] [Octavian_X-Away] Nah, that bastards took our planned iron supply. It became elite, and attack failed, and lo and behold, a GCA pops outta the mess. [23:27] [Trip] good work [23:27] [Octavian_X-Away] But, unless a galley is sitting there somewhere, he's doomed to die. [23:28] [Trip] okay, good [23:28] [Trip] you can trap it you know [23:28] [Trip] they won't be able to get another GL if you keep it trapped [23:29] [Octavian_X-Away] We don't have the resources to do that... [23:29] [Trip] where'd they get that unit from? [23:29] [Trip] I thought you said you'd killed everything? [23:30] [Octavian_X-Away] They sent more, you dolt. [23:31] [Trip] I thought you'd be attacking by now [23:32] [Octavian_X-Away] It's not like you're doing anything over there. [23:32] [Trip] we have jungle, what do you expect [23:34] [Trip] besides, it's two on one, you should be wiping them out Session Close: Mon Jul 14 00:50:21 2003

	15-07-2003 01:12									#100
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Do not mention this to CFC:

I think the right play with this situation is to let GCA have their Leader. They would probably rush him home to complete some super Wonder (Pyramids, probably), but with a two on one they could not possibly hold on to it for long. CFC would snag a "free" Wonder.


Dominae

	15-07-2003 01:17									#101
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Or maybe we should...

It will become ours in the end. I wouldn't mind having the Pyramids.

	15-07-2003 01:28									#102
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Taking a Wonder away from GCA undoubtedly means going through CFC, since they're going to want it too and they're closer. I say let them kill the Leader and be done with it.


Dominae

	15-07-2003 01:39									#103
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Then again they might just raze the city with the wonder... remember the old adage, if it ain't gonna be mine, it ain't gonna be yours either

Plus, if they have the nagging feeling they just might get wiped out, they might as well build an Army with it. An army would be bad news...

	15-07-2003 01:57									#104
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Master Zen came up with the best reason of all.

Kill it.

	15-07-2003 02:10									#105
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Oh yes - if it's going to be anyone who gets a GL and can use it on this continent it should be us.

	15-07-2003 02:16									#106
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Actually, given how far we are from actually constructing a Wonder ourselves, I would not at all mind if GCA's Wonder were destroyed. I would rather have the Pyramids destroyed than lose it to some other civ on another continent. It's going to be a long time before we enter the Wonder race...


Dominae

	15-07-2003 02:26									#107
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I think its irrelevant anyways, CFC is likely going to kill it no matter what we do :P

	16-07-2003 11:29									#108
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Brief chat with Octavian X:

He is OK with us touring 2 gallies through their coastal waters so long as we do not drop off settlers. He will ask his team for final approval.

Construction in @7 turns.

They will soon have a galley themselves to go investigate that island.

He playfully warns of Barbarian gallies in the waters.

--Togas

	16-07-2003 12:22									#109
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Good, maybe they will buid a harbor next.

Please ask them about that next time, we want to trade luxes with them.

I want to build a Harbor in Hispanica; since Incensity already has a Barracks. That Harbor and related Lux will save us the luxery slider for many turns.

	16-07-2003 17:14									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Just an interesting little talk with Octavian yesterday:

There were entirely too many tongues flying out in that log, Trip. Something you need to tell us about you and Oct?

	17-07-2003 06:06									#111
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quote: Session Start: Wed Jul 16 11:53:04 2003 Session Ident: FortyJ_At_Work Session Ident: FortyJ_At_Work (~fortyj@1b415a10.28ba3a9e.mia.bellsouth.net) [11:53] [FortyJ_At_Work] how long before you all decide to join in this war? [11:54] [Trip] I don't think we will [11:54] [Trip] we're busy trying to make something out of the jungle [11:55] [FortyJ_At_Work] sounds promising [11:55] [Trip] how are you guys doing? [11:55] [Trip] I heard from Oct you gave them a leader [11:56] [FortyJ_At_Work] true [11:56] [FortyJ_At_Work] although we prefer to think of it a little differently [11:56] [FortyJ_At_Work] "give" is not our first choice of words... [11:57] [Trip] makes no difference to me how you phrase it [11:57] [Trip] CDG seems to be having a lot of success also [11:58] [FortyJ_At_Work] not lately [11:59] [FortyJ_At_Work] or is that sarcasm that I'm not picking up...? [12:00] [Trip] [12:00] [Trip] have you heard from them lately? [12:02] [FortyJ_At_Work] are you all content to let GCA defeat CDG? [12:03] [Trip] probably not [12:03] [Trip] why, are they going to? [12:04] [Trip] defeat as in beat, or as in destroy? [12:04] [FortyJ_At_Work] do you think GCA will let them off the hoof if they've got them beaten? [12:04] [FortyJ_At_Work] I don't [12:06] [Trip] do you know what's going on? [12:06] [Trip] we haven't heard from either lately [12:08] [FortyJ_At_Work] not exactly much news coming from them in our direction either [12:08] [FortyJ_At_Work] but I think GCA has seen some rather impressive, odds-defying victories lately [12:09] [FortyJ_At_Work] but, the problem with PBEM is... it's difficult to know exactly what units were used in battle [12:09] [FortyJ_At_Work] since we only see the units remaining when we get the turn back [12:09] [FortyJ_At_Work] CDG claims that a stack of 2 vet swords, 2 vet horses and 2 vet spears killed 4 vet Immortals and redlined a 5th [12:09] [FortyJ_At_Work] the odds of that are astronomical [12:10] [FortyJ_At_Work] so I'm inclined to think that GCA brought a few more units to the fight than CDG had seen before then [12:10] [FortyJ_At_Work] but even so... the RNG has been very favorable to GCA [12:11] [Trip] hmmmm [12:11] [Trip] yes, that's what it sounds like [12:12] [Trip] what have you guys been up to lately then? [12:12] [Trip] preparing a counter-offensive? [12:13] [FortyJ_At_Work] can't say [12:13] [FortyJ_At_Work] [12:13] [FortyJ_At_Work] GCA is fairly strong... we'll be lucky to keep them from taking us over [12:14] [Trip] haha [12:14] [Trip] you heard that we'll be coming by with a Galley soon, correct? [12:14] [FortyJ_At_Work] I wish I were kidding [12:14] [FortyJ_At_Work] nope... news to me [12:15] [FortyJ_At_Work] from which direction? [12:15] [Trip] north [12:16] [FortyJ_At_Work] and are you all still interested in trading anything for Construction? [12:16] [Trip] yep [12:16] [Trip] I heard you'd have it done in about 6 or 7 turns [12:16] [FortyJ_At_Work] about right [12:16] [FortyJ_At_Work] I've got to get back to work... why don't you have someone PM or e-mail me a proposed trade for Constr? [12:17] [Trip] okay, I will [12:17] [FortyJ_At_Work] good... as always... it's been a pleasure... [12:17] [FortyJ_At_Work] you know... one day (or night) we should try to play a quick MP game together [12:17] [FortyJ_At_Work] just for kicks [12:18] [FortyJ_At_Work] get about 4 or 5 of us... could be fun [12:18] [Trip] [12:18] [Trip] sure thing [12:18] [FortyJ_At_Work] alright... I'm off to the grinding stone... [12:18] [FortyJ_At_Work] cya Session Close: Wed Jul 16 13:36:59 2003

	17-07-2003 07:32									#112
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[12:02] [FortyJ_At_Work] are you all content to let GCA defeat CDG?
[12:03] [Trip] probably not
[12:03] [Trip] why, are they going to?
[12:04] [Trip] defeat as in beat, or as in destroy?
[12:04] [FortyJ_At_Work] do you think GCA will let them off the hoof if they've got them beaten?
[12:04] [FortyJ_At_Work] I don't
[12:06] [Trip] do you know what's going on?
[12:06] [Trip] we haven't heard from either lately


With all due respect, there are two pieces of information here we should NOT have given out:

1: That we care one way or another about the GCA/CDG conflict, and what our feelings are on this matter. (True or false, that's still information we don't need to distribute.)
2: That neither civ has been keeping in touch with us RE: their war. (Again, true or false, we don't need to give them this information!)

I respectfully suggest that we be MUCH more careful in giving out information, particularly when the other guy didn't give us much more than "GCA is strong." (Duh, we know this, we can see your burned cities!)

Forty was pumping us for information, and he got it.

	17-07-2003 07:58									#113
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We don't want CDG destroyed. We've told CFC the same thing about GCA before. No one wants a power void. No news there.

They could have asked either of the other teams how much contact they had with us. This isn't even true, since we've talked with Lucky recently. I was leading him on to sound ignorant. If that's what he wants to believe then he can. But it's not even true.

	21-07-2003 12:13									#114
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Sorry if this is not the best thread for the question... I remember reading that CFC is cool with us attacking CDG - can't find it now, that's why I am asking in this thread.

The question: does anyone have an idea, why on Earth is CFC happy to let us backstab and finish off CDG? If CDG dies, GCA will be able to fully focus on fighting CFC - and CFC must know that. So, why do they not oppose our intentions? Do they hope we will proceed further South, joining them in the war against GCA?

	21-07-2003 15:44									#115
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Perhaps they see CDG as erratic as we have seen of them, but even that sounds flimsy....

FAM? Can anyone give us the links to the chatlogs where CFC tells us this explicitly? It would be useful to see what their tone was - whether they were grudgingly OK with us joining the war, or whether they seemed eager to please in the hope that they could get us to threaten GCA into stopping their war with CFC. How do we even know taht war is continuing, BTW? I have seen no evidence of changes in CFC's cities for some time now...

Another thing - how is that Consturction deal coming? We must be closing in on the turn they get it, if they haven't already.

	21-07-2003 21:03									#116
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I'm not sure if you can access this link, as it goes to the private ISDG forum over at MZO. If you cannot access it, contact Master Zen about getting the right permissions to view the backup ISDG forum:

Correspondence Thread at MZO

Note, Octavian didn't say they were fine with it, he seemed to recognize that it made sense for us and, most importantly, wants Apolyton to side with CFC in the long term conflict against GCA. He mentioned that many people on his team would not be happy about it because CDG was their ally, however, CFC *needs* us to fight GCA, and they will be (and have been) acting very friendly to us to get us on their side.

--Togas

	23-07-2003 08:30									#117
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Due to the fact that I cannot precisely remember if we have officially signed the NAP with CFC, and my desire to formalize all of these promises in writing, I have prepared this new NAP with CFC...

quote: APOLYTONIA AND FANATIKOU HEREBY AGREE: That we are brothers, bound together in our common desire to survive and prosper. As the world prospers most in times of peace, we wish for there to be peace between us. In order to ensure that peace we hereby agree to the following: 1) There shall be no war or conflict between us. Our units shall not attack each other, nor shall they enter the cultural borders of the other party without permission. This shall be considered a Non-Aggression Pact. There shall also be a 1-tile "buffer zone" around cultural borders. If this buffer must be breached for any reason, warning should be given in advance. 1b) The galleys "Princess of Apolyton" and "Expedition" are granted access to coastal cultural tiles of CFC, however, neither ship may land any settler anywhere near the cultural borders of Fanatikou 2) We agree to cooperate and communicate regarding any diputes over settlements or scouting. We agree to work out our differences in a chat, should any differences arise. 3) This agreement shall last 30 turns after it is ratified by both parties. This agreement shall be open for renegotiation after 25 turns have passed, however the following terms are permanent agreements that do not expire with this treaty: I) We agree to secretly cooperate and jointly plan a war against the Gamecatcher Alliance. II) Apolyton shall be allowed to capture Sharharazade. III) CFC shall give Construction to Apolyton upon completion. ~_________ of Fanatikou ~Togas of Apolytonia

Look OK?

--Togas

	23-07-2003 08:36									#118
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Looks fine to me. Construction for free - whee!

Hopefully they won't ask us to put in any clause about helping them vs GCA if they call us on it, as that would royally screw up the AltSp and our GA.

	23-07-2003 09:04									#119
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Finished meeting with CFC in their embassy. All is well with the treaty, the only marginal issue is Construction.

Oct, Bootstoops, and CivGeneral all stated they would argue with their team in favor of giving us Construction and living up to their agreement. I believe it will work out, but we will have to see.

They, of course, are anxious to get our military help in the war on GCA and would like to know if and when we are going to break our NAP with GCA.

--Togas

	23-07-2003 09:27									#120
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btw, for the record I sent that letter to CFC and discussed it with them. We should hear back from them soon.

--Togas