06-08-2003 22:38									#181
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It'll probably crash.

	07-08-2003 00:08									#182
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Wooohooo! There's the plan! We crash the game, start over anew, and get a not-jungle start!

::CHEER::


arty:

	14-08-2003 04:16									#183
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Screenshot of the front that Octavian sent me:



He also said this:

quote: *Octavian_X* That Army is either out for the capital, or our iron... *Trip* is it moving? *Octavian_X* Let me double-check... *Octavian_X* Yes, they are on the move. *Octavian_X* See where that army stands? *Octavian_X* We had two units there last turn. They're gone *Octavian_X* There was also another unit stacked with out injured sword in the area. *Trip* were the units Swords? *Trip* or Horses? *Octavian_X* An archer, a horse, and two swords are gone, iirc

So... that makes 4 Swords (2 elites in the Army), 3 Horses and 1 Spearman. 8 units, 4 elites, the rest veterans.

	14-08-2003 06:05									#184
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GCA attacked units on a mountain?! WTF?!

Either GCA is genuinely stupid in warfare (not ignoring the units and simply going for their objective, knowing their odds were better defending than attacking sword v sword on mountain) or they're jerking the numbers around.

In any case, can we use the information presented in this screenshot to get a better estimate of the GCA homeguard? Could we also consider using our cash to determine the disposition of units IN that homeguard?

	14-08-2003 07:32									#185
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A few other bits of info I got from Octavian:

They built a Granary and a Barracks early in Shen Ling, and he blamed this for their poor growth.

They plan on building Spears as long as their iron is cut off, then upgrading them to Pikes to try to ward off the looming GCA threat with vet Pikes. I convinced Octavian that it's highly unlikely that they'll be able to make good use of Med Infs. and should instead focus on Pikes (after all, we don't want CFC to collapse any time soon, at least not until we're ready to exploit that). They should have the road to the iron re-connected in 5-10 turns, and it's their greatest priority right now.

Octavian said he would like Republic from us, but I told him that it's not likely they would be willing to part with the cash we would require any time soon.

	14-08-2003 07:48									#186
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Could they afford the time in Anarchy?

	14-08-2003 07:59									#187
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Could they afford the time in Anarchy?

He also mentioned "Under normal circumstances, I'd ask for the tech, but we can't really afford anarchy atm..."

	14-08-2003 12:54									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon GCA attacked units on a mountain?! WTF?! Either GCA is genuinely stupid in warfare (not ignoring the units and simply going for their objective, knowing their odds were better defending than attacking sword v sword on mountain) or they're jerking the numbers around.

I 100% agree that something fishy is going on with all of their success. That Sword army took hardly any damage. It could be that their leader found a way to edit the file to fix the RNG before he plays the turn and his teammates are unaware of this as he does it before he distributes the save to the rest of the team. The amount of luck they have had equates to winning the Lottery....TWICE! :sheesh:

	15-08-2003 00:04									#189
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I 100% agree that something fishy is going on with all of their success. That Sword army took hardly any damage. It could be that their leader found a way to edit the file to fix the RNG before he plays the turn and his teammates are unaware of this as he does it before he distributes the save to the rest of the team. The amount of luck they have had equates to winning the Lottery....TWICE! :sheesh:

I doubt they are editing the file. Mongoose said he has played the saves and gets the same results. If Lucky was editing the file, the save would be different from the one Mongoose has (since all saves are CC'd to him) and wouldn't produce the same results.

About the only thing possible they could be doing is reloading the save and making sure to document every single move they made so that it is reproducable.

Or having a guy on their team named "Lucky" might be a factor. . .

	15-08-2003 00:29									#190
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NYE would you mind changing your name to Super Lucky?

	15-08-2003 00:32									#191
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You do not need to edit the save file to cheat. You can reload the game and try different moves. I have often been tempted to do this after opening up a save for a first time, closing it because I had to run off somewhere and opening it again at a later date. PBEM is all about trust.


Dominae

	15-08-2003 02:10									#192
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I agree with Dominae, if they are cheating then its likely they are just trying different combinations of moves until they like the results. I doubt highly they are actually modifying the save.

The case of attacking the units on the mountain was probally as easy as try it, see if it works, if not reload and do something else. In this case it worked so they went with it.

	15-08-2003 02:26									#193
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit I doubt they are editing the file. Mongoose said he has played the saves and gets the same results. If Lucky was editing the file, the save would be different from the one Mongoose has (since all saves are CC'd to him) and wouldn't produce the same results.

What if mongoose was in fact in on it? The altered map comes to mind....

Our upcoming war against GCA will be more telling.

	15-08-2003 02:30									#194
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BTW, we will not be selling or trading Republic to CFC for anything less than Monotheism. In fact, I would rather trade Engineering to them for it rather than Republic.

	15-08-2003 06:11									#195
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I'm not sure that Monotheism or Engineering is worth Republic; tech costs be darned, that's still a non-required government tech that we took the time to research we're talking about.

	15-08-2003 06:32									#196
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree What if mongoose was in fact in on it? The altered map comes to mind.... Our upcoming war against GCA will be more telling.

Oh jeez... Can we focus on the tasks at hand?

The map is one thing. Claims by civs who have shown the intelligence of the average turnip are another. Before we dwell on this issue, let's accumulate our own base of data, please.

	15-08-2003 06:53									#197
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I agree with NYE. I find it very unlikely GCA is in league with Mongoose or anyone at the UN to cheat. I can believe they are replaying the save until they find a set of moves that gives them a result they like, I can't easily buy a larger conspiracy theory.

	15-08-2003 07:16									#198
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If Mongoose is in on it then we are screwed anyway. Might as well just give up and give the game to GCA.

	24-08-2003 09:19									#199
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draft treaty. Please comment

New Civs Contact & Trade Treaty

Apolyton and Fanatikou hereby promise that:

Should either party be contacted by a new civilization:

1) World Map shall not be given, traded, sold, or exchange in any way to the new civilization without permission from the other party.

2) Contact with any other civilizations shall not be given, traded, sold, or exchanged in any way with the new civilization without permission from the other party.

3) If Contact with Apolyton or CFC is eventually exchanged, sold, traded, and so forth, both parties shall split or share the proceeds from such exchange, sale, or trade.

--Togas

	24-08-2003 11:58									#200
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Just a quick update on the CFC position:

CFC is one turn from reconnecting iron and upgrading a bunch of Pikemen. The majority of GCA's units they cannot see at the moment, but they have reason to believe that a fair number of them are heading northwest, possibly towards CFC's iron source. However, CFC should have plenty of Pikes (including vets) to meet them once they arrive.

	24-08-2003 12:06									#201
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I like it Togas. Do we want to work on something that nets CFC The Republic? What could they give us? Or would it be better to keep them in Despotism? If the war even starts to go bad for them, giving them The Republic might not be enough to pull them out. They may need it before hand... But, I don't see what they could possibly give to us for it now. Plus, we want to go after them before the Rider's, don't we? So maybe keeping The Republic may be what's best.

	24-08-2003 12:12									#202
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First off CFC has been at war for a long time. A very long time. War weariness is baaaaad news, especially when fighting a defensive slug-fest.

Second they'd have anarchy for a period of time. In a heated war, not being able to build anything for 6 turns would be very very very bad news.

Republic is best for cash and mined hills for production. All those negatives isn't worth a bit of extra cash, and they don't have many (read: any) mined hills.

Finally, they got crap to give us for it. They need the gold they have now for upgrades, and maybe more for the same later. They got the same techs as us (except Republic, of course) and they will finish Monotheism the same time we finish Engineering. I'd like to get more than 20 gold for the best government in the game.

	24-08-2003 12:20									#203
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What forms the basis of this latest discussion?

	24-08-2003 12:34									#204
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Which discussion?

The one about The Republic or the one about the proposed treaty with CFC?

	24-08-2003 14:05									#205
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The proposed treaty with CFC. I have seen no mention before Togas' post of restricting contacts. This is news to me. Where is this from?

	24-08-2003 14:16									#206
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I wonder that, too, NYE.

On another note: if you're at wat with Civ X, and you switch from despotism to Republic, do you immediately have War Weariness from the first part of the war? In other words: does it carry over between government types?

	24-08-2003 17:14									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Just a quick update on the CFC position: CFC is one turn from reconnecting iron and upgrading a bunch of Pikemen. The majority of GCA's units they cannot see at the moment, but they have reason to believe that a fair number of them are heading northwest, possibly towards CFC's iron source. However, CFC should have plenty of Pikes (including vets) to meet them once they arrive.

This potentially could be a BAD thing for us - it might cause GCA to withdraw towards its borders, or even to mass a much larger force before launching their next attack, which would lead to a very large military presence in their capital. I don't s'pose there's any way we can convince CFC to hold OFF on that upgrade for just a wee bit? Heh.

	24-08-2003 20:16									#208
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The proposed treaty with CFC. I have seen no mention before Togas' post of restricting contacts. This is news to me. Where is this from?

It was an idea that just came up between Togas and myself(IIRC). It's one of those things that came up in chat. Togas is presenting it here for all to see and comment on. It's not a 'done' deal by any means. It is up here now for discussion.

What do you think?

CFC may well get first contact. CGN or GWT may already be sending suicide Galley's. I thought we should have a policy in place regarding our WM's and contacts. Providing a way to evenly split the benefits of selling a contact or two seems like the best way to go for now; we want absolutley no discord with CFC (maybe after GCA is gone we can change that).

	24-08-2003 22:30									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon This potentially could be a BAD thing for us - it might cause GCA to withdraw towards its borders, or even to mass a much larger force before launching their next attack, which would lead to a very large military presence in their capital. I don't s'pose there's any way we can convince CFC to hold OFF on that upgrade for just a wee bit? Heh.

Might as well ask them to disband the city.

CFC still can't see any GCA units heading anywhere, so they're at least 3 or 4 turns from even being able to see a Pike for the first time if they head straight for Yun - due to all the hills they'll have to be directly adjacent to the city to see what's in it. Even if they chicken out it's 13 turns back to Balance of Power, and it's doubtful they'd do a FULL withdrawl with so many units everywhere, especially as long as CFC is just sitting around with Pikes and not attacking.

Oh, and on a related note, CFC's economy and industry are now equal with GCA's. CFC has GNP 42 and MFG 26 (confirmed by Oct X) and GCA has GNP 40 and MFG 30. With a few upgraded Pikes it oughtta be a GREAT slugfest! Maybe I should sell tickets...

	25-08-2003 01:49									#210
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree It was an idea that just came up between Togas and myself(IIRC). It's one of those things that came up in chat. Togas is presenting it here for all to see and comment on. It's not a 'done' deal by any means. It is up here now for discussion. What do you think? CFC may well get first contact. CGN or GWT may already be sending suicide Galley's. I thought we should have a policy in place regarding our WM's and contacts. Providing a way to evenly split the benefits of selling a contact or two seems like the best way to go for now; we want absolutley no discord with CFC (maybe after GCA is gone we can change that).

Cool, thanks. I was mostly wondering if this had been mentioned to CFC yet.

A couple points.

Should either party be contacted by a new civilization

I take it that this means that contact is made by a foreign galley, not ours. In that case, this would not apply to contacts we initiate with our galleys. Am I correct?

If that is the case, what would be the status of CivA paying CivB for contact with us after we reach CivB?

Or, does this apply to all contacts with the other 4 civs regardless of who initiated it and how it was initiated?