23-07-2003 13:29									#121
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Of course they will agree to it; it includes our going to war against GCA in the future. The question is how long will they wait? Will they attatch the price of us decalaring war on GCA to them giving us Contruction? It is highly likely; I know I would make it a stipulation.

	23-07-2003 13:35									#122
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Octavian suggested that CFC would be more willing to trade Construction if we were to make our invasion of GCA more "prompt." So yes, CFC may pull the Construction card on us.

	23-07-2003 13:38									#123
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I would gladly sign that. We are 10 turns from Repub. Once we are there plus 4 or 5 turns we need not pusy foot around any longer. Of course we will not jump immediately, but we will jump in our own time. They will give us Construction when we need it. We do not need it immediately they get it.

	23-07-2003 22:59									#124
	Put an end to popups!

I talked a bit with CFC's MOW, CivGeneral. S/he told me that they would be building a city on the iron next turn (and presumably, it would be connected as well). I asked if they had planned on building/using any Galleys against GCA, and he was going to run the idea by the rest of the team.

So for now, it appears we have no naval competition yet.

I also stressed the point that the longer CFC can keep GCA busy without collapsing the more time we'll have to build up and prepare, and once we're ready we could take care of them easily. He kept responding "k" so I'm not sure if that means that's what they'll try to do or if he was just acknowledging that I was typing.

	25-07-2003 02:59									#125
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Minor news from CFC:

No new GCA units spotted this turn. They found the Expedition and S02 Flash up near the barb camp. They'd better not have stolen our gold.

	27-07-2003 23:09									#126
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Perhaps it would be useful to ask CFC to scout on mountains towards GCA a bit?

Their war seems... lackadaisical.

	27-07-2003 23:14									#127
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Speaking of which, a new update:

CFC has spotted a GCA army containing 2 vet Swordsmen (soon to be 3). Nothing interesting beyond that.

They need to kill that thing!

	27-07-2003 23:31									#128
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3xSwords... normally I'd say that was dumb, but considering how far they are from Pikes, it's prolly the right thing to do.

	27-07-2003 23:34									#129
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Plus the battlefield is covered with mountains. That Sword Army would be great for uprooting Swords or Spears on mountain tiles, while staying alive with a 4+ defense.

	28-07-2003 12:58									#130
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Turn 96 update:

GCA army was 2 tiles w of BoP, now it's gone. CFC can see all tiles west, so it must have moved east. But to where? Why?

GCA has an elite Sword, elite Horse and 2 vet Spearmen on the mountains to the east of CFC. They hope to (and expect to) be able to kill these off soon once they get a decent Sword force together (they recently hooked up iron).

Octavian is "afraid" of the "other teams" on the other continent, especially GWT with the Pyramids. He's also heard "whispers of a war" from mongoose while talking about refugees.

Octavian wants peace with GCA at the border of BoP. I told him that was unlikely to happen. He then noticed that he had gotten an email from Lucky, asking to trade non-military techs with CFC despite being at war. Octavian said that his team was amused, to say the least.

I told him it would be in CFC's best interests not to attack GCA and lose 8 units in the process, and he replied "We'd need 8 units first. " Thus, it's likely CFC has less than 8 offensive units with which to work with.

Octavian still wants us to attack ASAP. I told him we'll attack when we're ready, so we don't end up like CDG.

	28-07-2003 17:13									#131
	Got spare money?

This all assumes that Octavian isn't jerking you around or at least manipulating the information he's giving you to his benefit, which I would guess is extremely likely.

Being afraid of teams you haven't met and could be anywhere in the world seems a bit much, in my opinion. If GWT is on the far side of the other continent, I don't care if they just built Sun Tzu's, it'll be a long time until we need to worry about them.

	28-07-2003 19:08									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Being afraid of teams you haven't met and could be anywhere in the world seems a bit much, in my opinion. If GWT is on the far side of the other continent, I don't care if they just built Sun Tzu's, it'll be a long time until we need to worry about them.

Although it is unwise to worry about things you cannot control, if we consider our current position in this game it is far from ideal. The fact that a team on the other continent (which is, apparently, really big) has built the Pyramids basically means that we're not going to be a world power in this game (as if our jungle start were not enough). A depressing thought, to be sure. Sheer economic force is not how we're going to win this thing. Our only hope now is killer diplomacy.


Dominae

	28-07-2003 21:49									#133
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I love it. OctavianX is a pretty bright guy. He tells Trip exactly what he wants us to hear.

He knows that we don't want GC to run over CFC, and hinting to us of the possibility is done to get us into the war sooner. He also knows (as we all know) how obsessed Trip is with stressing over what all the other teams are doing. Oct is just relating to Trip. It helps to create a bond of trust.

With regards to the other continent, we need not worry. If one civ over there becomes a giant that civ will also become a target. We do not want to be the target. We do not want to be the baddest civ on the planet until we are so bad that the other civs cannot stop us. Two weak teams can take down a giant and if one civ over there becomes a giant it will be taken down. Especially if that civ is the GWT. The language barrier and their general lack of diplomacy make them an easy team to gang up against .... and so long as we continue to be perceived as weaker, we will be invited to help slay the giant. This will give us the toehold on the other continent we will need to ultimately be victorious.

--Togas

	28-07-2003 22:14									#134
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OctavianX is good. I think he said he's on 7 or 8 demo teams, so he has a good feel for how the game is played. And since he's so active, he has a great feel for others, especially when they are on other teams together. Must watch him carefully.

	28-07-2003 22:28									#135
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I've never mentioned anything about the other continent to him, and the only person I've ever heard say I was "fixated" on the other continent was you. I'm concerned that there's two teams over there who have GNPs 1.5 times our own, have huge scores and one of which has the Pyramids, but I don't spend every waking our scheming how we're going to defeat these giants. As F-P said, we'll deal with them eventually. As Dominae said they are a threat and we need to recognize that we'll have to deal with it one day.

	28-07-2003 22:33									#136
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I love it. OctX found out from any number of sources and since Trip didn't tell him, Trip is CONVINCED he's genuninely concerned about the other continent, blah blah blah, so what?

It's just a ruse. A way to relate and find common ground. Same thing with them relating to our fears that GC will take over the continent or any of our other joint concerns.

We need to be conscious of the fact that CFC has people who know how to play this diplomacy game. We are not the only ones who scheme and plan and manipulate.

--Togas

	28-07-2003 22:41									#137
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Just because you don't worry at all about the other continent doesn't mean no one else does, and whenever someone mentions that it must be some sort of conspiracy. After all "Trip, the guy you talk with all the time about the GCA military is obsessed with the other continent and how powerful it is/might be" is a typical conversation piece.

In any case, it's irrelevant. The longer CFC holds out against GCA is all that matters. As long as they survive to tie down GCA forces then I don't care what happens to them. We'll destroy them eventually anyways.

	29-07-2003 04:45									#138
	Got spare money?

Heh actually I was worried about the other continent until Trip convinced me otherwise about 10 days ago So I don't think its fair to say Trip stresses over the other continent :P

Im still concerned that a civ on the other continent will win the game though. However, I don't think that win will be a result of our elimination It could be, but I dont think its likely at this point. I'll be much more worried about it when a civ which has a complete lock on its own continent gets a foothold on ours. As long as they are worried about each other, they probally won't be coming our way in any serious numbers.

---------------------
I'm much more concerned with the GCA army though. But, OctX could be lying about it going east just to try to get us to pre-emptively strike. If it is heading east, then its likely GCA is getting visions of their impending demise and are planning to keep their army (and their _army_) close to home.

	29-07-2003 13:13									#139
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* MrWhereItsAt is incensed over CFC's possible deal retraction and must rant for a moment

How DARE they? They are almost begging us to help them and must have been delighted to learn via the death of CDG that we became allied to them to take down GCA, and SOON. Yet now, with their forces holding out against GCA (so they aren't desperate) they try to blackmail us by refusing to trade Construction unless we declare war on GCA? I sincerely hope this situation is resolved at CFC as OctX hopes, because this would certainly kill MY trust in their leadership. What happened to mutual help? They can't blackmail us to attack earlier - there's less in it for us by getting Construction than is in it for them with us attacking GCA sooner than we are ready. This is plain selfish and arrogant, and unless they give us a damn good reason for needing an attack on GCA soon that benefits us as well as them then I do not believe we should cave in here. So we don't get Construction without researching it ourselves - so what? I would love to see CFC falling apart because they destroyed the trust we had going through a tiny act of arrogance - in such a situation we wouldn't have screwed CFC: CFC would have screwed CFC.

* MrWhereItsAt feels marginally better but still outraged

	29-07-2003 13:26									#140
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I think GCA is promising more than Octavian let on.

It jives. GCA is wary of us, they do not want us doing what CDG did. They do not count themselves so lucky as to survive a second two front war.

They have their victory. They have their space. If they can buy peace with CFC, they gain much.

	29-07-2003 16:11									#141
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I think its literally funny that CFC is trying to bribe us to go to war with GCA early and in the same breath tells us they are prepared to make peace with GCA as soon as they agree to the border they want.

Gee guys I really trust them not to leave us hanging a turn after the declaration of war :P

	29-07-2003 18:35									#142
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more good cop/bad cop from Octavian...

Either they're absolutely desparate for us to join asap and figure they have nothing to lose (unlikely IMHO) or they think they can afford to risk their friendship with us and perhaps plan to make peace with GCA when we declare war to set us in a long hard war while they rebuild.

	30-07-2003 20:37									#143
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Quick chat with Veera from CFC:

Octavian has been pretty much acting on his own. CFC isn't too happy about this.

It's been decided that we'll get Construction.

CFC no longer desires peace with GCA... we'll see how that ends.

	30-07-2003 21:29									#144
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quote: Octavian has been pretty much acting on his own. CFC isn't too happy about this

Yes, Octavian tends to be fairly pro-Poly. He's good for getting a lot of info out of that the rest of his team might not want us to have, but then again, sometimes what he says doesn't really represent his team's views...

Good news on the Const., though.

	31-07-2003 18:57									#145
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quote: Quick chat with Veera from CFC: Octavian has been pretty much acting on his own. CFC isn't too happy about this.

This seems hard to believe. There probably is some disagreement, but the whole thing was probably set up.

	31-07-2003 19:38									#146
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I agree with civman2000. CFC knows what is going on full well. The message Octavian sent us did not go over well at all and CFC knows this now and wants to try to seperate itself from Octavian in hopes that we won't 'remember' this incident.

It's just plain Diplomacy at work here folks. If you send a message that the other team doesn't like, then blame it on the messenger so that you try to save the relationship you had previously. To me, the relationship is damaged. I believe that Octavian was acting with full support of CFC's team. Octavian has been around too much and has too much experience for him just to be going off on his own. CFC can no longer be trusted as an ally. Not that we trusted them 100% before; but it is certainly less now in my eyes.

	31-07-2003 19:44									#147
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Isn't there someone at CFC we can ask for the resignation of Octavian?
Either they take full responsability or they fire the guy.

	31-07-2003 19:49									#148
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We can ask and they can do so; but would that change your opinion of CFC right now? It wouldn't mean beans to me. CFC has made their bed...

	31-07-2003 19:55									#149
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If they get rid of him for this reason, it would certainly gain my respect again.

	31-07-2003 20:05									#150
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BFM, they could get 'rid' of him in many different ways; simply asking him not to correspond with APO does nothing for me in terms of allaying my concerns with the general message that was passed along to us.

Octavian is well known. He is not some unknown renegade CFC member. Demoting him should be almost meaningless to us because we know nothing of their internal affairs; it could all be an act. The message Octavian sent to us was clear; CFC is trying to leverage us into action by threatening to break an agreement. They tested the waters, it failed, now they want to retract the message by saying that the messenger acted without authority from the team. That's BS and you and I both know it. If they punish Octavian how does that change the fact that they tried to bully us by threatening to break an agreement? Or, do you truly believe that Octavian was acting 100% outside of CFC's wishes?