31-07-2003 21:48									#151
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Let's calm the fires a bit and remember a few important things.

1) They clearly tried a diplomatic tactic that failed, they recognize that it failed, and they are therefore taking it back. With most other teams we deal with this would have never happened. They would have merely been stubborn and spiteful and the relationship would have deteriorated.

2) OctavianX has been a good source of intel for us, he is active and easy to contact when we have questions about CFC. Discrediting him or pushing him out and putting in some punk we don't know who doesn't know what goes on, has to ask for permission all the time to tell us things and acts only as a "yes-man" is not in our interest. We want Octavian as he gives us faster feedback, is easy to contact, has demonstrated authority to speak on CFC's behalf, and (most importantly) he has ties to Poly and relationships with people on our team and has great respect for many of our team members. He may even be a little "soft" towards Poly.

3) CFC, by using this diplomatic way of saying "oops!" is showing that they do value their relationship to us AND they value their rep in our eyes. They will likely not try something like this again. Furthermore, we know that we can press a little harder on issues of their trustworthiness or their commitment to the relationship and get them to capitulate further because they are in a position where they now need to reprove their loyalty. Instead of us having to demonstrate that we will go to war on GCA (something that I'm sure they've been secretly demanding), they now have to demonstrate their commitment to the war. Diplomatically speaking, the tables have been turned.

4) And if they are having some sort of interal struggles over this -- good for us. Their government's instability and lack of confidence in each other is going to undermine them throughout the game. We have overcome our initial conflicts to form a rather tightknit and single-minded group that is focused and efficient. We will always have the advantage by acting quickly and effectively during emergencies or opportunities.

--Togas

	31-07-2003 21:58									#152
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Wise words, Master Togas.

	03-08-2003 10:07									#153
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Newest proposal from CFC is posted in the correspondance thread, and frankly, it is trash. Trip brings up an excellent point:

quote: We get Construction 3 deals later than we should have, they get a map, 3 techs including Republic, our promised military support and a promise not to trade with another civ.

This is despite the fact that they are IGNORING a previous treaty we have with them for construction. What should we do at this point?

Dubya and Trip both raise the interesting point that we don't need them as much as they need us. We hold an advantage technologically, militarily and economically and we have nothing to worry about from them.

The only thing we really need from them is construction. How should we go about getting this?

	03-08-2003 14:18									#154
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Oh HELL no to that latest treaty.

I think it's time that we inform CFC that we are not to be casually dicked around with. If they aren't willing to give us Construction by the original terms of our agreement, then we should inform them that we may need to seek that which satisfies the needs of Apolyton for trustworthy, contract-filling allies elsewhere.

They'll know exactly who we mean, and what that means, too.

I don't care if their left hand can't figure out what the right is doing; this isn't an excuse for them to casually break agreements with us.

	03-08-2003 16:27									#155
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Their attempts at finding a trade that heavily favours them because they believe we are desperate for Construction are ridiculous and should be given no credence.

We already have a signed agreement with them for Construction. Of course we do not need to stick to this if we both agreed on a new trade, but so far they have not offered us one we consider to be a fair trade for both our nations. In our next correspondence to them we aim to send them this message, as well as that despite the fact we consider their last offer to be completely unacceptable, we are still open to all REASONABLE offers. Until such a time as they decide to abide by the original agreement or propose a new and FAIR agreement we will not trade for Construction.

I hope to write up words to this effect as a communique to them for perusal shortly before we next play the turn, around 1300 EDT (1800 GMT?) Sunday - be there in chat if you can make it.

	03-08-2003 16:52									#156
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Agreed with the posters above - the latest proposal is totally unacceptable for us. Giving Republic to CFC, anyone? Yeah, sure...

No way. They must realize where they stand and where we stand, what their possibilities are and what ours are.

	03-08-2003 21:08									#157
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Yeah, giving a government to CFC is the stupidest thing we can do. I say we hit them with a small army just for sending us that ridiculous treaty.

	03-08-2003 21:20									#158
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Friggin' absurd.

So, it seems our strategy reverts back to AltSp, with the focus being GCA.

How do we follow up on the basic existing trade with CFC for Construction?

	04-08-2003 01:52									#159
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by sending them the following letter:

quote: To Fanatikou In response to the lastest proposal sent by Fanatikou, Apolyton would like to first and foremost reafirm it's friendship with Fanatikou and it's committment to upholding the last wishes of our neighbor, Elucidia. Nevertheless, we find ourselves rather disappointed by CFC's refusal to go along with the Construction for Code of Laws and Philosophy trade which was ratified by both our nations in writing. Failure to comply in this regard is considered by Apolyton a flagarnt violation of a signed agreement, regardless of the consequences which led Fanatikou to this unfortunate decision. Strong relationships are cemented not merely in treaties, but in the trust which results from respecting those treaties to the word. By failing to respect the technology trade, CFC has made it clear to us that there is no reason why it may not seek a similar solution to a future signed agreement. It is for this reason that we fear such a proposal will not pass should it be subjected to vote, until our people are confident that CFC is willing to honor it's past commitments. The people of Apolyton urge Fanatikou to reconsider it's position on the Construction deal, until that is done, it will be difficult for our people to accept further proposals. Regardless, Apolyton reafirms its total committment to respecting the final agreement regarding CDG, in which Apolyton shall join Fanatikou in it's struggle against the Gamecatcher's Alliance. We shall intervene shortly, and decisively until this common threat to our mutual security is wiped out forever. Best Regards -Master Zen Deputy Foreign Advisor of Apolyton

	04-08-2003 02:09									#160
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I approve of MZ's letter. Jokingly in the chat however, he said he'd like to tell him what he really thinks. I proposed hiding a secret message in the letter.

Note this is only a joke, but I thought we should share it It might not look proper because of screen width formating issues. Basically I'll bold the letter of what is supposed to be each line

quote: Fanatikou, Until recently, the trust between our nations has been great. However, it seems you care litte about honoring our past treaties. This disturbs us. We both want GCA killed and I think the only way to resolve this is to work together. Yet, it seems like both our sides our being stubborn and it's frustrating. We only want to work together for what is best between us. I hope we can come to an understanding on such an important issue.

	04-08-2003 02:14									#161
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Fanatikou,

Until recently, the trust between our two nations has been great. However, it is apparent you...

Care litte about honoring our past treaties. This slightly disturbs us. We both want to see GCA...

Killed and I think the only way to resolve this is to work together.

Yet, it seems like both our sides our being rather stubborn on this issue. We...

Only want to work together for what is best between our two nations. I hope we can come to an...

Understanding on such an important issue.

	04-08-2003 02:31									#162
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I have asked MZ to send his note as posted above.

	04-08-2003 02:32									#163
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this is based on the original one made in the chat:

Fanatikou,
Until Recently your team has
Cared little about honoring treaties, in the process you have
Killed off our trust in the most despicable way.

Year after year you screw us over and
Once again you have proven to be totally
Untrustworthy as far as signed agreements go.

Understand we are very
Perturbed at this unfriendly attitude on your behalf.

Your treaty is completely biased in your favor.
One day we fear you'll have Numidians sticking their spears
Up your ass again and again
Reconsider please if only to save your behind from such unpleasantries.

Silly us for having
Trusted you
Under any circumnstances.
Perhaps we will be wiser in the future, however
If there is a future CFC will have no part in it as our allies,
Deals are meant to be honored, not thrown in the garbage.

Ask yourselves if you are worthy to be in this game with us,
Sorry to say we feel you aren't worth of this.
Some day you will learn but until that happens,
Everyday you convince us that you are lazy and you suck (as our FAM, Togas plainly says)
So, suck on this, *******s!

-MZ

	04-08-2003 03:13									#164
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That's priceless, MZ!

	04-08-2003 03:13									#165
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Well with CDG holding on a grim few more turns (one at least, until we hear from the rest of the team members whether they mind their team exisiting a little longer yet), we have a chance that CFC will turn around and play nice. Not a great one, IMO, but where there's a chance we can hope that us calling their bluff will lead to them either honouring our deal or presenting a better one.

Keep praying to the jungle Banana.

	05-08-2003 06:53									#166
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With the game at CDG, and only Netatolia to go before us, has there been any word from CFC?

	05-08-2003 20:21									#167
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Someone please correct this and send it to CFC. Also, someone who knows MRex (Trip?) should try and haggle over this proposal with him as it is obvious GF will say yes but who knows what the rest of the team have in mind.

quote: Apolyton, Fantikou and Elucidium Medieval Technology Agreement Apolyton, Fanitkou and Elucidium, in the spirit of frienship and with the intention to stay as technologically advanced as our continental rival and competitive against the other continent's civilizations, hereby agree to the following technology agreement: 1) Apolyton and Fantikou shall share among themselves all required technologies of the Ancient Era in order to switch to the Medieval Age as soon as possible. 2) These technologies shall also be shared to Elucidium, this will enable it to obtain free a new Medieval Age technology due to their status as a scientific civ. This new tech shall be gifted to both Apolyton and Fanatikou upon it's discovery. The mechanism for such trade is as follows: 1) Upon receiving the save, Apolyton shall gift Currency and Polytheism to Fanatikou 2) Fanatikou shall accept these technologies, bringing it to the Medieval Age. Fanktikou shall gift back Construction to Apolyton and gift these three technologies to Elucidium. 3) Elucidium will accept the gifted technologies and reach the Medieval Age giving it a free technology. That technology shall be gifted to Apolyton and CFC. 4) Should the in-game trading mechanism disallow Apolyton from receiving the medieval technology (in the case that Elucidium's proposal appears before Fantikou's), Fanatikou is required to gift the medieval technology to Apolyton on the following turn. This treaty is binding upon ratification. Under no circumstances will a signed party withdraw from it's obligations that this treaty entitles. -Master Zen Deputy Foreign Advisor of Apolyton

Point #4 is tricky for me since I do not remember if proposals appear in game order or each team's turn order hence there's the possibility by whcih CDG might offer us the tech first and we can't get it since we're still in the Ancient era. Please revise.

I WILL BE AWAY MOST OF THE DAY, PLEASE SOMEONE SEND THIS TO CFC AND CDG IF NECESSARY

mail is msdg AT civfanatics DOT net

(hmmm... or is it .com?)

	05-08-2003 20:42									#168
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From the way they've been carrying on, I'd rather not "gift" Currency and Polytheism to CFC, but rather trade it for Construction.

Turn 1

1. we offer Currency and and Polytheism to GCA, unaccepted
2. CFC offers Construction accepted back

Turn 2
1. We accept and get Construction, we gift all to CDG
2. CFC gets Currency and Polytheism

Turn 3
1. CDG accepts all the techs from us and gets a Medieval tech. They offer it to each of us, accepted
2. Poly accepts and gets the tech
3, CFC accepts and gets the tech

Three turns away, but we don't gift CFC anything, they don't gift us anything, and we get our techs at effectively the same time (CFC is right after us in turn order). Moreover, we each enter the Medieval age before having the tech gifted to us by CDG, so there's no game mechancis problems I can see.

All sound OK?

	05-08-2003 20:47									#169
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ok, it's .com and I already sent it to CFC although I told them it's still not 100% official until we get word from CDG.

	05-08-2003 22:47									#170
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We must be sure that CFC doesn't capture the last CDG city, while this deal is going on. Do we know for sure that CFC wont try to do that?

	06-08-2003 00:15									#171
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Where are the logs of the CFC chats last night?

Did MZ change the note based on MrWhereItsAt's post?

	06-08-2003 01:33									#172
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Where are the logs of the CFC chats last night? Did MZ change the note based on MrWhereItsAt's post?

Yes, I did change it. Apparently the e-mail bounced, ( I guess it is .net). Anyway, I'm PMing it to Octavian at CFC also.

	06-08-2003 03:56									#173
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Thanks.

And the chat logs?

	06-08-2003 06:05									#174
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chat logs are up

	06-08-2003 06:19									#175
	Put an end to popups!

Excellent. Thank-you. It is important that more of this is visible to all of our citizens.

Couple of things.

quote: [23:38] [Togas] OctX, if I may make a point for the CFC logs: When we speak to you and we make requests or agree to deals, we speak with authority. If MZ or myself or any of our diplomats agree to something, you can trust that Apolyton will stand behind it. [23:38] [MasterZen] yes, even if we get castrated back at our chat [23:39] [Togas] we stick to our word and we honor our commitments.

Yowzaa's... I would hope those things committed to are cleared by the team as a whole, or by the Consuls at the very least. I think I know what Togas was trying to accomplish; brow-beat CFC into actually making a commitment. Very good, but this could come back to haunt us in future if appropriate disclaimers are not made.

quote: [23:53] [Octavian_X] Actually, we do have evidence some of the other teams have hit the middle ages... [23:53] [Togas] as do we, so we'd like to get there too [23:54] [Octavian_X] Evidence, in the form of stack of 16 barbarian horsemen...

This is such good news! Trip and I went to some trouble to keep us clear of troublesome eruptions. It appears as if we got very lucky, and the eruptions happened while there were no eligible camps in our vicinity. We should keep the units in the North for a bit more though, just in case this report is not entirely accurate. And AGA needs to prepare for horsemen appearing to the SW. There was a camp there that CDG recently killed.

	06-08-2003 11:42									#176
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An interesting and informative chat with Octavian...

quote: OctavianX> You really should lock this place up... ZargonX|boot_camp> we like talking to people OctavianX> Still, we may be about to lose all our gold to barbarians. Any advice on what we should do with it? ZargonX|boot_camp> hmm... invest in internet stocks OctavianX> Good idea. OctavianX> No one is online at CFC, and no one else has played the save... ZargonX|boot_camp> but, seriously, that could be a problem ZargonX|boot_camp> yeah, we noticed you've had it for quite a while :P OctavianX> Any idea on what turn barbs move in a PBEM? Maybe we can gift it all for a 'deposit...' ZargonX|boot_camp> barbs always move last, after all players ZargonX|boot_camp> I'm not sure the turn order off-hand... ZargonX|boot_camp> are you top, or bottom? OctavianX> #6 fo 8 ZargonX|boot_camp> hmm... they'll definately go before we could accept, then ZargonX|boot_camp> is it a lvl 1 city? OctavianX> size 1, on a hil OctavianX> *hill ZargonX|boot_camp> hmm... that means all gold, and shields... OctavianX> At most, a spear, sword, and archer could defend it ZargonX|boot_camp> vs. 16 horsemen? ZargonX|boot_camp> is that what you said? OctavianX> only 6 threaten the city this turn ZargonX|boot_camp> oh, that's not TOO bad OctavianX> We also stand to lose a worker... ZargonX|boot_camp> that's kind of rough... no way to defend it? OctavianX> we could retreat it... OctavianX> The barbs would lose movement over the hills ZargonX|boot_camp> but you would lose some work time? OctavianX> It wasn't doing anything, since we had to retreat it from barbs last turn OctavianX> (If you haven't already guessed, we've had rotten luck for the last few turns...) OctavianX> damn... OctavianX> I was thinking we could blow the gold by building an Apolytonian Embassy, but we're 1g short... ZargonX|boot_camp> now THAT'S rough... ZargonX|boot_camp> a dollar short, as they say... OctavianX> to true... OctavianX> And it's not like scientific research will help at this point - we'll lose it soon ZargonX|boot_camp> also true ZargonX|boot_camp> nothing you can upgrade? * OctavianX has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) * Octavian_X has joined #isdgfam Octavian_X> yay, my alter-ego... ZargonX|boot_camp> ZargonX|boot_camp> interesting question: ZargonX|boot_camp> if you gift us the money, and we accept, but the barbs have taken a turn in the meantime, ZargonX|boot_camp> what happens? ZargonX|boot_camp> it might be possible that offering the cash to us may protect it in the meantime... ZargonX|boot_camp> so, perhaps a deposit will work after all... ZargonX|boot_camp> what do you think? Octavian_X> I'll give it a try Octavian_X> (sorry, some hardware difficulties delayed my response. Over now) ZargonX|boot_camp> np ZargonX|boot_camp> what can it hurt, right? Octavian_X> Let's see... I'll gift it out with construction, then Octavian_X> huh.... ZargonX|boot_camp> problem? Octavian_X> CDG also needs HBR to get in the middle ages Octavian_X> were you guys gonna give it to them? ZargonX|boot_camp> let me check... ZargonX|boot_camp> if you guys aren't, we can ZargonX|boot_camp> either way works for us Octavian_X> I'll be the nice guy. ZargonX|boot_camp> heh, I'm sure CDG will appreciate that Octavian_X> The sooner, the better. Octavian_X> Also, if you guys do get the gold, we may or may not ask for it back. ZargonX|boot_camp> The Bank of Apolyton is always open to our valued customers Octavian_X> What's the current interest rate on deposits? Octavian_X> Out of curiosity, what have you're two great ships discovered so far? MasterZen> btw, do you want an ATM card with your deposit? Only 10% fee. And we also have life insurance for another 10% * ZargonX|boot_camp is now known as ZargonX ZargonX> our discoveries? ZargonX> well, our brave sailing lads found a small island, mostly uninhabitable ZargonX> that's the highlight so far Togas> and a goodie hut! Octavian_X> So I've heard. Octavian_X> We'll bump the lux rate to 100%, and go on... ZargonX> so I guess we'll find out how the deposit works when we get the save... ZargonX> hopefully it'll work out for your benefit Octavian_X> I'll drink to that... * ZargonX toasts

	06-08-2003 13:59									#177
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Can things really be going that well all of a sudden?

Let me get this straight - if this chat is to be taken at face value (I know, I shouldn't, but I prefer positive thinking about our supposed allies CFC ATM), then they will offer us Construction this next turn as per the idea?

Is this actually going to go ahead? This chat seems to suggest so.

Come on, save!

	06-08-2003 14:14									#178
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Here, have a bucket of cold water, Dubya.

Now, you can be pleased with whatever happens, and not dissapointed if the ChaosFanaticsCentre does its regular bit.

	06-08-2003 22:08									#179
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

FYI the gold stays with CFC until we're able to accept it on our turn. Thus, they stand to lose all their cash when the barbs come a-knockin'.

	06-08-2003 22:34									#180
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Now see, that was the question I raised, Trip: If they lose all their gold, and the offer comes to us, and we accept, what happens then? Does it tell us they don't have enough gold to comply, or will it put them in the negative? Or, will the game just crash and burn...