04-03-2004 02:50									#421
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DEFINATELY "con the wise monkey"

Great job, all we can do now really is wait...........

And hope.........

We just need to maximize core production. Anyway we can.

	04-03-2004 04:23									#422
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 We just need to maximize core production. Anyway we can.

It's called a Golden Age.

But on a more serious note - we do need to make sure we balance pop rushing and growth, and only use pop rushing when it makes sense.

And - I am still thinking about the unused settler. I acknowedge that we may need a safety valve to evacuate - but my sense is that if things really go south quickly in this war - we will pop rush all our cities and evacuate to Monkey Island. So keeping a settler sitting around now when we need the production does not strike me as the right thing to do. H_E had suggested to keep him in stand-by mode - just in case. But I think we should consider one of:

1. Adding him to Gibbon (temple and lots of grassland tiles to work with)

2. A new city 5-7 of Macaque where we can bring lots of grassland tiles under production quickly - and which would be a useful 'fortified port' city in the longer-term, if we do survive.

3. The hill city 9-9 of Orangutan. The problem here is that it would be strictly for defensive purposes - the city would not be very productive in the short or long term. That being said - it would make a good fort. And I do suspect that Python is going to be using the eastern spine of hills and mountains to get into the. We should start thinking of counter-moves. They may by-pass Siamang altogether.

(In which case - maybe our stack of Merc's goes on a rogue campaign through CoD and Python territory. )

	04-03-2004 05:17									#423
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I will have a quick look at the save tonight.
Last night I was rushed...and the moves were reasonably obvious anyway.

Anyway... just some general comments.

The Settler
I dont have any set plans for the settler.
I like to keep one in reserve, to do a variety of things....including all of the options Beta suggests above.
I just dont like committing to anything, until we know what our enemy is doing.



Our Galleys....
We have 2.
It is most likely that we will meet another team along the west coast. Meeting someone who gifts us Republic now, would be perfect....but I am not holding my breath.
If Python was sending galleys, they would also appear on our west coast.

It is also most likely, that we will see CoD galleys on our east coast.


And then again, if it does go pear shaped, I'd like to keep both the galleys nearby, to help with the evacuation to Monkey island.

We dont have enought to do all the tasks.


But..If we are committing to defending our core, then perhaps we should just drop the idea of going to Monkey Island. We either survive or we dont.

In which case, we have 1 galley go up each coast.


Our Workers
I say we mine everything we can get to easily.
Hills take too long, so stick with the grassland & plains.
And definately mine those areas we have already irrigated. We need shields.

	04-03-2004 05:29									#424
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I say if our core is going to he11, then we take whatever is left to monkey island.

Two galleys is not going to stop a determined seaborne invasion.

Use them to scout and be our seaborne eyes.

Thats my take.

But in either case I say we go to Minkey Island if all else fails, if nothing else I want to place the shadow of indefinate war weariness of Monty, we wont let it go forever, but maybe just long enough to get some concessions.

I seriously doubt if :

1. We will meet anyone anytime soon
2. If do they would just gift us Republic out of the kindness of there hearts.

	04-03-2004 06:03									#425
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Problem is con, that if we use our galleys up the coast, then they wont be able to scramble back to help with the evacuation.

We need 6-7? units over there to create a sea wall.


I think we agreed to not using war weariness exploiting at the start of this game, so our ability will be limited to use this tactic.


And dont be surprised what a team will be willing to give us, just to make it hurt the other two.

It's in their interests to make the war last longer, and its normal to buff up the weakest.
I suspect we will be able to get republic for free.
But I doubt it will come in time.

	04-03-2004 06:15									#426
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Problem is con, that if we use our galleys up the coast, then they wont be able to scramble back to help with the evacuation. We need 6-7? units over there to create a sea wall. I think we agreed to not using war weariness exploiting at the start of this game, so our ability will be limited to use this tactic. And dont be surprised what a team will be willing to give us, just to make it hurt the other two. It's in their interests to make the war last longer, and its normal to buff up the weakest. I suspect we will be able to get republic for free. But I doubt it will come in time.

Ok fair enough, I was just in a real GCA mood

If we are going to lose this one we might as well go out with a bang

	04-03-2004 08:15									#427
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I think we work on both Plan A and PLan B at the same time.

Plan A being to fight the good fight, make them pay, and maybe re-think their strategy. As it stands right now, they are not guaranteed of victory - which is why I am thinking they still have something up their sleeve - and that I believe will be a galley invasion. They want us to take our units up north - and to a certain degree, we are accomodating them.

Then again - maybe they figure their large stacks are sufficient. I know when Vox set off on its glorious campaign, we were fairly confident as well. We had Immortals - and lots of them.

Time will tell.

And Plan B - run like hell to Monkey Island. We rush another galley - with 3 - in two runs we can get 12 units off the mainland. But again - time will tell if this will be the result.

In the meantime - I am trying to come up with another diplomatic angle which might work. Maybe trying to deal with Python is not the way to go. Maybe we need to convince CoD that they should have Python's land. And we agree to the very small bottom part of the continent. (for now ...).

I also agree that by the time we meet another civ - it will probably be decided one way or the other.

And I think both our galleys should stay on the west coast - keeping an eye out - but being ready to evacuate if need be. It will take way too long to move one around to the east coast. We have warriors in mountains to keep an eye out on that side. And that is the side I think they - and they being CoD - will be coming.

	06-03-2004 16:51									#428
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Lost our warrior left behind in the north.
Not sure how....he was in jungle, and there were no barbs around ??

More barbs to our south.
Damn.. We have to leave at least 2 mercs down there on barb patrol.

Move all the rest of our mercs north.
Beta, move the stack just outside of our borders.
If they investigate before attacking Cheetah, then they will see nothing.

You can drop off the archer & warrior in siamang, and then move our last merc out of the city.

Easy turn I think.
Not much to think about.

Keep producing mercs. Catapults in non barrack cities.
Lets wait on pop rushing until the last minute.
(Which may be next turn)


I say move cheetah SW (1) to block off Pythons direct advance.

	06-03-2004 17:17									#429
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And while I think of them... some more names

Konquest02 the absent Ranger
MJW the lurker Ranger
Zero the founder Ranger

Or something like that

	06-03-2004 20:05									#430
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Playing the turn - and - Willy moved 9 to the next mountain. Two CoD galleys visible 9-9 from his position, or 3-3-3-3 from Siamang.

Thoughts?

	06-03-2004 21:49									#431
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I have to shut down my PC for a few hours. My friend is here and installing a second hard drive and a second cd drive. Will be back up later this aft to play the turn.

	07-03-2004 03:07									#432
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Thats probably a couple os horsemen & spearmen.

We can handle that.

	07-03-2004 04:37									#433
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470bc turn played

Around Siamang:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...0bc-Siamang.JPG

The core:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...-470bc-core.JPG

Most moves as per H_E's suggestions.

Note the two warriors on the coast. I thought it important to guard against the one mountain top they could land at that would put them adjacent to Gorilla.

We do need to consider options for taking them out when they do land.

We have one NM, an archer and a warrior in Siamang. The Nm because he had landed north of the city last turn.

Cheetah stands ready to do his duty for all of Monkeydom. Let's hope his sacrifice is as prophetic as Grog's in that other game.

We will have 14 NM's ready to defend Siamang when they hit.

I rushed the walls this turn. We are now wasting shields if we are going to rush. And walls or no walls is not going to deter them - especially if they search this turn. They will have to search first - then attack Cheetah. Or they can delay another turn - which is unlikely.

If Siamang holds out - which I expect it to - tehn we can accumulate a few shields and rush more walls when these are knocked down - or a NM.

And we change the name to Fort Siamang next turn.

Gator and Hippo are moving to picket duty off the west coast.

PC is now producing 10 spt. Catapult or archer in 2, or NM in 3. Or barracks in 4. Probably the catapults.

We have another NM out of Baboon next turn, and then turns 3, 4 and 5 from the northern cities.

Workers moved to mine the irrigated tiles. They were the best candidates - and in the south - it was the only safe thing to do.

We should consider a small offensive to take out the barbs. Then we can mine the imporatnt tiles down south.

And - I'm putting back on the table the idea of using the settler to plant a city 8-7 of Macaque. There a number of garrsland tiles which would be productive during (and after) our GA. And if we need to cut and run - we can always pop rush a settler.

That's it - except for our new war cry - Cheetah and Courage!!

	07-03-2004 07:52									#434
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I ran more scenarios through zach's combat simulator. I did it a number of times - this was a typical result.

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...mbatresults.JPG

Note that I assumed the walls were knocked down - and all mercs were reduced to 3 hps.

But even then - we still win the battle 98+% of the time. This excludes attacks by horses - which would counter my overly pessimistic assumption on the catapult attacks.

Nevertheless - at the end of the combat - they still have a number of swords still remaining. And our mercs have taken a beating. We should have fresh NM's ready to move in.

Or catapults and archers to take out the survivors. But we will not have them in the real short term - so more nm's it is.

	09-03-2004 04:00									#435
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I like to SPAM

	10-03-2004 15:45									#436
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CoD has dropped a pillaging force next to Orangutan.
3 Spearmen & 1 Horseman.

We need some catapults.

At the moment, we are going to have to just cut them off.
Our mercs are too valuable to gamble offensively against spearmen.

I suggest

(A) NM Steve can join the other Merc and fortify.
(B) The newly produced Vet NM in Baboon goes north into PC
(C) Con the NM can move into Orangutan. So can Giles the warrior. They can fortify with Ranger Bob already in there.
(D) Beta the NM & Marazu the NM can move to our staging point. (I want to leave only a warrior in Siamang to show)
(E) This is up for discussion. Do we move Furry the warrior and force Python to attack? MOst likely we will lose 2 warriors.

Also up for discussion is our catapult situation.
We need to bomb those CoD spearmen to death.
PC, Macaque, & Orangutan can all switch to catapults this turn and build cats next turn.

Siamang, Chimpanzee, Baboon, & Gibbon should all switch to Catapults, They wont finish them for a few more turns though.


Pic

	10-03-2004 17:48									#437
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H_E - I have looked at the save and will play it later today.

I agree with the cats.

Would be nice to have some galleys on that coast as well.

I figure we should pull our warrior back. One to force them into declaring war I can buy. Not sure two is worth it.

Regarding cats - I suggest Macaque stay with Merc. We lose too many shields switching to catapult.

And you are right - there is not much they can do there.

Question - do we leave a merc fortified 1 of Orang, thus allowing our worker to finish the mine withour fear of being attacked by the horse??

	11-03-2004 03:03									#438
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quote: Originally posted by Beta H_E - I have looked at the save and will play it later today. I agree with the cats. Would be nice to have some galleys on that coast as well. I figure we should pull our warrior back. One to force them into declaring war I can buy. Not sure two is worth it.

Then move the warrior onto the hill, forcing them to go around him via the grassland.

quote: Originally posted by Beta Regarding cats - I suggest Macaque stay with Merc. We lose too many shields switching to catapult.

I did not recall losing any shields in a switch...but its up to you.
Those Cod will move that stack into our territroy 1 tile at a time. The horse will move & pillage, and the spears will protect it. Thats smart, I thought they would drop horses. We need cats ASAP to bring the spearmen HP's down.

quote: Originally posted by Beta And you are right - there is not much they can do there. Question - do we leave a merc fortified 1 of Orang, thus allowing our worker to finish the mine withour fear of being attacked by the horse??

My moves will leave 2 mercs & 1 warrior in orangutan
Site (A) will be covered by 2 mercs.
They cant reach our worker without first killing the stack at (A), so he is quite safe to be left unprotected.

	11-03-2004 05:56									#439
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Turn played. Will post in a bit. Dinner and Enterprise are on.

	11-03-2004 07:18									#440
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Just remember CoD does not have to avoid attacking us. We are already at war by killing the scout.

You guys are doing great. I have been really busy with the start of C3C ISDG.

We got an answer to Beta's propoganda thread request from CoD, they said they would prefer we not do it.

Since we are all friends here I suggest we honor that request.

It would have been fun though Beta

	11-03-2004 07:48									#441
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quote: Originally posted by Beta Turn played. Will post in a bit. Dinner and Enterprise are on.

Repeat.

450bc turn played.

The core:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...-450bc-core.JPG

Siamang ...now Fort Siamang.

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...ort-Siamang.JPG

Most of the moves played as per the discussion above.

A couple of changes:

I moved the archer down from Siamang. Could be used for offensive purposes - and can still make it back to Fort Siamang.

Moved Cheetah to the hill tile - forcing Python to kill him or move to the plains - which is what I think they will do.

Re: builds. Two catapults next turn. Macaque already had 16 shields accumulated - so it would lose 3 or 4 shields by switching to a catapult. I appreciate that these are somewhat desperate times - but we can produce a NM in two with no waste.

Have switched the southern cities to catapults as well. We will have another catapult out in 2 turns, another in 4, and two more in 6. Also - PC can produce another in 3 turns.

We will need to adjust the luxury slider next turn - as two cities grow.

The galleys - I recommend they move to a point 1-4 of SS Hippo (the galley to the north and east). This will put them two tiles from the tile where Python galleys would need to move to for a safe crossing of the sea tiles outh of there. Hopefully - this would then leave them exposed to an attack. And - if it was their third mp, they would not be able to fort (whci for a ship is really silly.)

Another pitch for using our settler. But it is not getting much of a response.

	11-03-2004 09:11									#442
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quote: Originally posted by Beta Another pitch for using our settler. But it is not getting much of a response.

I dunno if the settler will make a difference in the war Beta, unless we used the POP points to rush something.

BUT if could prove very usefull if we have to Evac to Monkey Island.

Pop another city in the hills in the south, irrigate and mine the piss out of it, build some Harbors and we have a sanctuary.

We might even be able to eventually build "The Lighthouse" and go looking for another island to settle.
And the other continent of course.

Far fetched but I say hold the settler till we really need him.

We have Monty bearing dowm from the north.

We have a pilliaging stack from CoD to deal with.

And we have barb horses in the south.

I dont think having to worry about building a new city and defending it is a good idea right now.

	11-03-2004 09:30									#443
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I agree with con on the settler.
Lets see how things unfold first.

Damn those barbs in the south. I wish they would suicide themselves ASAP.


I am putting my money on Python moving to the plains.
It is quite possible, they want to pass by Siamang altogether. March right up to our core.

My guess on CoD, is that they will move SW to the forest tile.
From there, we Bomb them.
They may decide to then move to our Ivory.
Again, we bomb them.
If they pillage the ivory...no big deal...we just up the luxury slider.

Or they could head deeper into our core, pillaging as they go.
Either way, we shadow them & bomb them.
Then rebuild the roads behind them.

	11-03-2004 17:15									#444
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OK. I'm on board with the settler plan.

H_E - I agree with the proposed approach. Catapults on their way.

Question - we bomb the spears and wound them. They Load back onto the galleys. Do they heal on the galley - if the galley is not in our territory?

	11-03-2004 17:45									#445
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After we bomb them to one pip, we then have to kill them or chase them away.

We need a plan for that

	11-03-2004 17:59									#446
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Units do not heal on galleys

Bombing them will take some time.
We will get pillaged.
And it is drawing our much needed mercs away from Siamang.

So it's not all a bed of roses.

	11-03-2004 19:18									#447
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And what are we doing with the galleys?

Are we considering attacking the CoD galleys?

Galley warfare at least in my limited experience generally favors the defender.

So are the galleys standing by for EVAC? What are there secondary missions?

	11-03-2004 19:24									#448
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I know Arrian is a dam good CIV player.

I dont know about OTCT_X or the other guys at Monty but Im getting this feeling they are going to try and bypass Siamang and head for the core.

Wouldn't you do that H_E?

We need to start thinking of what we will do if they Bypass Fort Siamang.

And please dont take this the wrong way Beta but could you change the name back? Fort Siamang kind of telegraphs our intent.

And I dont want to give these but heads any info we dont need to

	12-03-2004 04:17									#449
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 I know Arrian is a dam good CIV player.

Arrian is an exceptional player.

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 I dont know about OTCT_X or the other guys at Monty but Im getting this feeling they are going to try and bypass Siamang and head for the core. Wouldn't you do that H_E?

Sir Ralph is almost godlike. Have a look at their city placement, improvements, and the size of the army he has built. This is all his doing.
He is no longer their prime player, but I suspect he will still be advising them. My take on Sir Ralph, (like most of Gathering Storm), is that they dont like getting their ass kicked.
When is happened in PTWDG#1, most of them became inactive or resigned from the game, after they realised they had no hope of winning.

I think, that our Far North city placement has screwed up their sneak attack. Sir Ralph knows its going to be bloody, and has, not surprisingly, decided to leave the team.

Thats my opinions....quite harsh I know... but why else would someone leave a team just a few turns before their greatest glory. ...Unless it could become their biggest defeat, and he realised what a huge mistake they have made.

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 We need to start thinking of what we will do if they Bypass Fort Siamang.

If I was them, I would investigate it, and then decide.
Hopefully, they will do it this turn.
They will see 1 warrior.
And will make a beeline for it.

If they decide to go around, we will have even more mercs & catapults. Thier offensive numbers will remain the same.
Good for us. Bad for them.

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 And please dont take this the wrong way Beta but could you change the name back? Fort Siamang kind of telegraphs our intent. And I dont want to give these but heads any info we dont need to

My immediate reaction was the same thing. But I now think it will not be a problem.
They will be getting mixed signals.
The city just popped some walls ?
But it is only defended by 1 warrior ?
But they names it a Fort ?

To be honest, changing it again, will only draw more attention to it.

Regs

	12-03-2004 05:51									#450
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Sorry about the Fort naming thing. Didn't give it much thought - but the walls they can see, hence the name.

Now - they may think we named it that to give it a sense of invulnerability - which they may intepret as a ruse - whcih may lead them to attack it - which is what we want. I would love to see 17 swords attack 11+ fortified mercs.

Also - as to the pillaging. I think we are relatively safe. They don't have a lot of moves - and we really only need to defend each improved tile with one merc. Actually - I would be glad if they came inland a bit where we could finish them off.

And I do believe they are going to bypass FORT Siamang as well. Which makes this whole thing much more dicey than it already is.

Question - if Arrian is such a good civ player - why hasn't he figured out that taking Python's land would be better for them in the long run?