28-02-2004 05:41									#391
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I suggest we wait and see if they hesitate a second turn - if yes - Barracks in PC.

We also have a settler to use. Options:

1. Build the second city on Monkey Island
2. Build a 9-ring city on the south coast
3. Add to an existing city. (I would suggest Gibbon as it has built a temple)
4. Build a new city not currently in the existing city plan.
a) a city NE of Orangutam
b) a city on the grassland peninsula NE (8-7) of Macaque.
5. Do nothing for now - simply park him somewhere.

I vote for 2 or 3.

	28-02-2004 06:49									#392
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I tentatively vote for $a

The idea of a camp in the hills in that location is intrigueing me.

Thats assumes we disband Siamang as they get near.

Need to look at if we can have it builkt with walls before Monty gets down here.

If it doesn't work we do something else.

I sure would like our "bunker" to be on a hill...........

	29-02-2004 04:15									#393
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OK - I have run some examples thorugh the combat calculator:

Vet sword vs Vet Num Merc.

- fortified, with walls - sword wins 13.6% of the time
- fortified, no walls - 22.3%

Vet sword vs regular NM

- fortified with walls - 27%
- fortified, no walls - 38%

Vet sword vs regular warrior

- fortified, with walls - 78%
- fortified, no walls - 86%

So - the obvious solution, which we knew anyway - is veteran numidian mercenaries.

I would also suggest catapults will be extremely useful.

I think back to the Vox invasion of GS. And we had Immortals - tons of them. But Pikes and catapults in defensive positions were able to stop us in our tracks. We didn't take a single city. Now - we may have made some tactical errors in our approach - but in the end - it came down to the pikes and pults. So - we should take some heart from this. And maybe build some catapults. They do an OK job of chewing up swords and spears.

In chatting with con the other night, we discussed our mutual worry that Python or CoD may be coming down one or both coasts with galleys and troops. We can use one of our galleys to watch the west coast - but should consider getting a unit into the eastern mountain range to give us a look out there.

As to catapults - Gibbon and PC do not have barracks and are the best candidates for building them. And seeing the odds diffrential above on vet vs regular NM on defence, I would advise that if we do not want PC building catapults, that we should build a barracks first, and then NM's.

	29-02-2004 15:14									#394
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510bc ..

I doubt we are going to talk Python out of their offensive.

Anyway... my suggestion on moves.

Here is a question not yet answered.
Are we going to plan for a last ditch escape to Monkey island ?
If so, we need to start ferrying units over there to protect the landing sites.
Preferable warriors... but we can also send over our workers & the settler.

If we want to hold out for as long as possible on the mainland, then we should leave Howler Monkey and the whole island.
Use the galley, to ferry both the worker, and the NM to the mainland.
The NM will come in very handy. The worker can start mining.
We are not going to be able to road the horses, and build 2 harbors in time to build horsemen...so dont bother trying.

This is needs to be decided.

Firstly, Mandrill, and its new warrior.
Mandrill is now pop 2. It can be attacked by Python horsemen.
It must be disbanded this turn
I was tempted to move the warrior 1 tile south and pillage the road, but is you look at the map, that roaded tile does not help there advance at all.
So let the warrior pillage the road under the city. He will remain "hidden" to Python forces, and he may just escape unnoticed. I am not sure what we can do with him, or how he will make his escape however...

Now Capuchin.
We could leave this city, and get another gold out of it...
But I think it best to disband it because its going to give us more options with our galley next turn

Move the galley, 9, 6. Move the NM onto the galley, and then move the galley another 6.
This gives us an additional escape route next turn.
The galley will be able to drop off the NM into Siamang, and then move North to load up more warriors.

After the galley has moved, disband Capuchin

Still up North.
Move Ranger Nik the NM to Siamang
Move Mikazaru the NM to Siamang 2
Move Churchill the worker to Siamang 2
Our Archer pillages the road.
Furry the warrior pillages the road
Cheetah moves South 2
Jojo moves SW 1
H_E the big mean Gorilla moves into Siamang & Fortifies.

Washington MInes of course

Now some more decisions.
Do we still aim for Republic?
I dont think we will make it, and think we should slow down research, and tweak the luxury slider up. This will allow us to stop using units as military police, and get them to the front lines.

If we do this,
Move Giles from Gorilla to the front lines.
Same with Ranger Alek & Zena from Macaque

OR .. start shipping the warriors & the settler to monkey island, ready to make a sea wall.

Move ranger Ivan 8,9,6
It takes him off the road network, but he can see our coast, and lookout for Galleys.
We still have time to replace him with a warrior and bring him back.

Our Settler .. ???
I always like to keep one handy.
To plant a city right where they want to go, and basically be a nuisence.
So... I would vote to do nothing with him for now...
or if we are serious about escaping to Monkey Island, ship him over there.
Ranger Ian from Orangutan goes to Simang 2


Other things....
Python are in anarchy. They are moving to republic, and is the most probably reason why they havent attacked us.
If they start the war, they will suffer war weariness.
I plan on resolving this, buy leaving a warrior on the hill Siamang 8,9,8.
They will have to attack him to get through...or road over even more mountains.

We have a galley on the front line, who can help with some retreating warriors.

If you guys want a barracks in PC, then go for it.

Dont rush walls in Siamang just yet.
And also note, that I am rallying our troops 1 tile south of Siamang.

We are not at war with Pythin yet. They could build an embassy, and then investigate Siamang.
I dont want to give them any chance of seeing our unit strength
In fact ---- Change my above plans...set the ralley point outside of Siamangs border.
That way, they wont even see the units.

And I dont want to build a wall yet, because I want to keep them guessing where our troops are.

If we move our military police from the cities...tweak the economy/each city as you see fit with the luxury slider & workforce.

Thats about all for now.

Regs


510bc Map

	29-02-2004 15:19									#395
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I just reread the above...
Excuseall the spelling errors...

	29-02-2004 17:40									#396
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Thanks H_E! I will probably play the turn later this morning (EST ) or early this aft. So con will have a chance to throw his 2 cents worth in as well.

btw - con and I did discuss pulling the NM from Monkey Island. We decided not to. But I appreciate your point that if we are going to make a stand there eventually - then we need to cover all landing points.

I suspect that Monkey Island is not in Python's game plan. Although I can't recall if CoD has horses or not - so they may be considering it for that.

What con and I decided to do was a middle of the road approach. Leave the worker and NM there - yet move the galley north. Last turn would have been ideal for moving the galley - but we can still do it this turn.

	29-02-2004 17:53									#397
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H_E - any comment regarding catapults?

	29-02-2004 20:24									#398
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Again - PC has some choices.

Catapult in 1. PC grows in 2 turns.
Barracks in 3. PC grows in 3 turns.

Also - PC can be set up to produce a catapult every second turn.

	29-02-2004 23:11									#399
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510bc turn played

I played it pretty much as H_E had recommended.

Here's the pics:

The rubble in the north:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...10bc-rubble.JPG

The core:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...-510bc-core.JPG

A couple of small modifications. Ivan moved up to 2 of Siamang. I used Willy the warrior out of PC to move to the coast. He is 3 of Orangutan. No galleys in sight. He can move to the mountains next turn.

I made the decision to pull the units off of Monkey Island. SS Gator has them loaded this turn - and they can be dropped off in Chimp next turn. This will allow the NM there to head north. And the worker is desperately needed in the south for mining. Especially as we head into our GA.

I also decided to keep the units for happiness for one more turn. The Python swords and cats need 4 more turns of movement to be next to Siamang. The units can be there in 3 and fortified. They start moving next turn.

I hummed and hawed over going to catapult production - but decided on barracks for PC. It will be able to produce a NM every three turns after that.

I left one merc in Siamang for show. That is as far south as he could get. There are 5 others south of Siamang.

There are 6 more set to go from the core - PC, Macaque, Chimp, and three new buils in the next two turns.

So - can 11 mercs hold off 17 swords, 4 horse, 8 catapults, and 5 spears? Based on the combat percentages I posted earlier - and let's assume they destroy the walls, and lets assume that half our NM's are beat down to regular by catapult attacks .... I need to do some math.

And btw - we killed another barb down south.

	29-02-2004 23:36									#400
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Here's the combat odds again. For vet sword, vs fortified NM. The two variables are walls and vet vs regular NM. These are the odds of the sword winning the single combat.

............... walls........no walls...
...vet.........14%..........22%.......
...reg.........27%..........38%.......

I also ran some scenarios through zachariel's combat calculator - it is a bit different. You add in the number of units and it calculates the entire battle as many times as you want - I asked for 100 and sometimes 400 iterations.

For 17 vet swords vs 11 reg NM's, (fortified - no walls) the swords win roughly 36-42% of the time.

Change this to reg NM's, and the swords only win 5-8% of the time.

In both these last scenarios - the NM's are left pretty beat up - but probably not sufficiently so for the 4 horse to finish them off.

All this to say - we net vet NM's, and the more the merrier. Barracks in Siamang would be useful - for healing units. btw - we can rush walls now at the cost of one citizen. As per H_E's plan, did not do this last turn.

Now - if we can figure these odds out - so can Python. I wonder if their strategy may be to move down the east coast - the security of the hills and mountains taking them into our heartland.

We need to consider how we can switch to offense when need be. And this brings me back to the catapult and archer discussion. (Man - horses would be nice.) But a nice stack of catapults and archers that could use the road network for mobility - and be ready to strike a blow at the 2 defense strength spears and swords.

I wonder how far they are from chivalry. Then it gets really scary.

	01-03-2004 00:23									#401
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Why did we abandon Mandrill, did the barbs get into it?

	01-03-2004 00:25									#402
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And did anyone get a reply from the Pythons?

Sorry I haven't been around, my kid had a science competion yesterday.

He placed in all four of his events.

Thank god he takes after his mother

	01-03-2004 01:47									#403
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Firstly, Mandrill, and its new warrior. Mandrill is now pop 2. It can be attacked by Python horsemen. It must be disbanded this turn I was tempted to move the warrior 1 tile south and pillage the road, but is you look at the map, that roaded tile does not help there advance at all. So let the warrior pillage the road under the city. He will remain "hidden" to Python forces, and he may just escape unnoticed. I am not sure what we can do with him, or how he will make his escape however...

con - here was H_E's reasoning - and I can't disagree with it.

I've seen nothing from Python.

	01-03-2004 01:48									#404
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Sorry I haven't been around, my kid had a science competion yesterday. He placed in all four of his events. Thank god he takes after his mother

(but can he play civ...)

	01-03-2004 03:00									#405
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OK got it on the mandrill abandon.

And we got the warrior Yea!

That is the nucleus of a partisan forc in the north.

As Monty goes south he will first hide then move east and cut the road they are building

F*&k em, we are going to make this as nasty as possible.

They are a Looooooooong way from home and Vet NM's rock as Beta has determined.

We STILL have a chance and Ill do everything to survive

Nu ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

	01-03-2004 03:01									#406
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Ill look at the save and read the whole thread tonight.

	01-03-2004 03:34									#407
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Beta...

Regarding cats ..
I am all for them.

I just want to make sure we have reached critical mass on our mercs first.
Once we know it is highly unlikely they have the numbers to break through our mercs, then I say catapults all the way.

ie... there is no use in building catapults, when we know we dont have the numbers to hold them.


But as you see... we are in with a chance with our current numbers....so cats are good.

	01-03-2004 08:10									#408
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 OK got it on the mandrill abandon. And we got the warrior Yea! That is the nucleus of a partisan forc in the north. As Monty goes south he will first hide then move east and cut the road they are building

Actually, the more I think about it, I am pretty sure they are trying to avoid being the first to declare war.
To avoid any WW hits while in republic.

If this is true, I am kicking myself for pillaging the road underneath Mandrill.
If they move the same as last time, their forces move as a group, and the workers move unprotected behind them.

Had the road still been available, we could of used the warrior to attack and kill their workers.

Ahh well...


Depending on their next move, I plan on leaving a warrior behind to force them to attack.

They may take the 2 hill, 1 grassland route
Or they take the 1 grassland, 1 hill, 1 grassland.

Anyway, our galley, can move 1 tile towards Siamang, drop off the NM, and then 2 tiles back north.
It can pick up 2 out of the 4 (3 warriors & 1 archer) units we left behind.

	01-03-2004 08:26									#409
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Also....

You guys can do whatever you want on the diplomatic front.
Be careful to not burn any bridges.

If Pythons attack fails miserably, make sure they still feel we are open to negotiation to help them retreat.

Same with CoD. You can try whatever you want with them.

This whole thing looks so familiar to me.

Python = GoW
CoD = ND
Monkey = Roleplay.

I know that no matter what Roleplay offered us (GoW) we had no intention of betraying our allies or accepting.
I suspect it will be the same here.
These invasions get planned so well in advance, you are just desperate to see them through no matter what.


I agree with you guys.
A well planned invasion done in advance rarely involves only 1 offensive front.
I suspect we will see some CoD galleys down our east coast pretty soon.



And on republic...
Our best bet is to hope we see another civ appear on the horizon.
Them gifting us republic is our best bet. Maybe we could risk some anarchy turns then....if it happens soon.

I am actually surprised, that we havent seen anyone so far.



And finally, I am totally about trying to figure out their iron situation.
Try pressing Ctrl-Shift-N.
Hide everything except the resources, then hit OK.
Where is their iron ? And if it is on an island ? How do they get it without any harbors. And trade over seas ?

*** Hot_Enamel raises his fist at the sky and shouts "Damn you Panzer" ***

	01-03-2004 08:53									#410
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Maybe they had iron for a while and the source ran out?

i agree on Panzer, this was quite unfair.

	02-03-2004 07:22									#411
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Maybe they had iron for a while and the source ran out?

If this is true... we no longer need to fear knights or Medieval Infantry....(both need iron)

And once their current load of swordmen are killed, then we only have to worry about archers (attack 2)

Longbowmen(Attack 4) are not around until Invention.
The next best is French Musketmen (Attack 3)

All of these, can easily be defended against by our Mercs.

All we have to do is to weather this first wave of swords. And any galley drop offs.

	03-03-2004 14:23									#412
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We have the save

quote: Team Monkey: After much consideration, our Ministry of Issuing Polite Rejctions has decided to issue a polite rejection to your offer of becoming our vassal state. We still feel, frankly, that your territory will still be better in the hands of our Master, Guy de Loimbard. The Ministry of Understanding hopes you understand our position. Thank you, Octavian X Supreme Lord Despot That's Trying to Overthrow Himself as Supreme Lord Despot, and all around Useless Fat Guy of Team Monty Python.

The moves are pretty obvious.

We lost a warrior to a barb horseman

I suggest we drop our NM immeditately at Simang 8
Then get the galley to move 9.
Then pick up Furry & our archer.
Then move 1,2

I vote to leave Cheetah behind.
Once Python attacks, and starts the war, then they start getting WW earlier.
Plus it means we dont have to worry about Python spying on us.

But everything else is just troop movements to the front line.


PC...
I am still worried about us having enough mercs in Siamang. I count ~ 12.
It may still be a good idea to get another NM from PC. Even though it is a regular.

You guys decide.

Easy turn this one.


{edit}
Get the NM from Chimp to begin to move NOrth.
He can be replaced by the Merc from Monkey island.
And make sure our injured NMs skip to heal or get into a town to heal

	03-03-2004 17:35									#413
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OK - but I will not play until I am home from work. I do not want to rush it this morning - and I have to leave in 15 minutes.

So con or H_E, if you guys are around later today - say 6-8pm est , we can chat.

	03-03-2004 18:13									#414
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quote: Originally posted by Beta OK - but I will not play until I am home from work. I do not want to rush it this morning - and I have to leave in 15 minutes. So con or H_E, if you guys are around later today - say 6-8pm est , we can chat.

\
Ill look at the save today.

And get familiar based on H_E's suggestions

If you want I can play it today.

But I cant chat till more like 2100 to 2200 EST.

Let me know which you prefer Beta.

The one Thing we NEED to do is pop rush all the NM's we can and get them up to Siamang RIGHT BEFORE Monty gets there.

Ill try and work up a diplo dispacth today and I guess its tiem to send something to CoD, Maybe Ill ask CoD how the weather is up there.

	03-03-2004 23:00									#415
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Con - I am home for the afternoon - as I feel like crap. In other words - I do not feel well enough to be at work - but more than OK to play the save. I will start looking at it immediately. In particular - I will see if pop rushing makes sense.

Ok, to the save. Need a kiwi laced with aspirin to do this....

	04-03-2004 00:01									#416
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con and H_E - if you are around - I would like your input. As H_E has said - most of the moves were straightforward. If they do not attack Cheetah next turn - then we move him down to the grassland tile where they will be forced to attack - or they delay another entire turn.

So - the Num Merc count.

We have 8 mercs in and around Siamang
(1 Elite, 6 vet, 1 regular)

We have 4 on the way now.
(3 vets and 1 reg)

We have 4 that will be built and there within a 4 turn time frame - I think 3 is what we need as CoD can attack in its 4th turn from now.

Gorilla - vet - built next turn and wil be there within 3.
Gibbon - reg - built via pop rush next turn (16 shields - 1 cit), will be there in 4.
Chimp - vet - built via pop rush and will be there in 4.
Chimp - the Monkey Island vet merc (Steve) who can head north as Baboon will produce a regular NM in two turns. This is dependent on what the barbs do, but we should be able to pull it off.

So - do we want a regular NM out of PC next turn? He can be north in 3. It means abandoning the barracks.

But it would give us 14 mercs in Siamang when they get there - 1 elite, 10 vets, 3 regulars.

And then 3 more NM's the turn after that, and with two more on southern border barb patrol.

So - I am thinking PC produces a merc. Let me know if you agree.

btw - Macaque and Orangutan cannot rush mercs this turn.

Last edited by Beta on 04-03-2004 at 02:02

	04-03-2004 01:59									#417
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i got busy today, I say do the merc, numbers will be everything in four turns.

Get as many mercs as you can up there.

A cat or two would be nice but Im not convinced we have enough time..

Whats better one less reg NM and a cat or the reg NM?

I dunno, H_E what do you think?

im leaning towards cats out of a non barracks town. They can damage upon attack and you can also use them during counterattack, it might be handy.

Ill be out of pocket until later tonight. The kids are home and I have to do "dad" stuff

	04-03-2004 02:13									#418
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H_E was leaning towards a Merc as well - from the above post. I will finish off the turn now, and save and send.

	04-03-2004 02:21									#419
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quote: Originally posted by Beta H_E was leaning towards a Merc as well - from the above post. I will finish off the turn now, and save and send.

Roger that, go with Merc then

	04-03-2004 02:47									#420
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490bc turn played

Turn played pretty much as discussed above.

The north:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...490bc-north.JPG

The core:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...-490bc-core.JPG

Some other points...

Slider is at 40% science (29 turns for rebublic) and 20% lux. I still needed a warrior in Macaque to keep it happy. PC is OK for another pop grwoth. But when Orangutan and Gorilla grow, (3 turns), we will need to adjust it again.

Settler moved to PC. He can party there for a bit.

Unit production was as per my above post.

We have a worker in Orangutan, and one in Chimpnazee. I suggest that next turn the Chimpanzee worker mine the tile 9-9 from Chimp.

Now the Orang worker - desperate times mean desperate measures - and we can consider chopping a forset for shield production. But I would first suggest we get enough mined and roaded grassland tiles for when our GA kicks in. I am thinking the tile 1 of Orang.

The other consideration - do we want a road into the eastern hills/mountains for the purpose of getting troops there for defense. Probably not - we should stick to mines.

The warrior on the east coast moved to the mountain tile - he stills sees nothing.

We should send SS Gator and SS Hippo up the west coast asap to keep an eye out for galleys.

And we need more names for Num Mercs. I suggest:

Ranger Buck
Ranger Joe
Ranger Arnold
Ranger Jean Claude
Ranger Sylvester
Ranger Ludwig
Beta the Mad Macaque
con the Wise Monkey