13-02-2004 08:54									#331
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Hi guys. If the save is here tomorrow morning - I can play it. After that I am away until Sunday evening. Please play the save - and good luck with the barbs.

The settler - up in the north - is headed for the coast sire next to the river - the unenhanced grassland tile, keyboard 1 from wher he is now. This should be a great growth city.

The settler coming up from Orangutang should have two NM's to accompany him. Depending on barb activities - continue his push up the road.

Th enorthern workers were going to first connect Mandrill and the luxury.

The new city's name is Tamarin.

Wheeling and dealing and tech trades I leave to you.

Cheers! ...Beta.

	13-02-2004 10:25									#332
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quote: Originally posted by Beta The settler - up in the north - is headed for the coast sire next to the river - the unenhanced grassland tile, keyboard 1 from wher he is now. This should be a great growth city.

We really never discussed our forbidden palace plan on the other peninsula


FP Suggestion


I did this some time ago.
Thats a lot of cramped cities on the ring, so something with less cities is probably better.
But if we decide to build a FP, there, then the tile I have picked is the best one.

Unfortunately, where we are sending the next settler is not in the ring. It should be on the other side of the river on the enhanced tile.


So...

Do we settle on the enhanced tile instead ?

Or

Is it too early to plan our FP
We should ignore RCP for our FP

?

I am OK with whatever is decided.
That river city will be great, but if we do decide to oput the FP as per the above map, then the city will be on ring 5 while everything else is ring 4.

	13-02-2004 10:48									#333
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Maybe this will work

Everything is on the 4th Ring

FP attempt #2

	13-02-2004 18:33									#334
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OK - Beta forgot to mention that that we got Pythons world map last turn (for our world map)

This gave us our entire continent

Our Continent 650bc


Here are the important bits

Monty Python
12 tightly packed cities (3 ring & 6 ring)
3 sources of Wine
No Iron
No Horses

Cake or Death
10 cities. Expansion north was cut off by Python. (4 ring & 9 ring)
Has 3 cities in unproductive jungle.
2 sources of Wine
6 sources of silks
No Iron
1 source of Horses

Monkey
11 cities, with a few settlers enroute. (4 ring & 9 ring)
1 source of silk
3 sources of Ivory
No Iron
1 source of Horses (On our island)



Total of our continent

Wine (Controlled by Python & CoD)
Silks (Controlled by CoD & Monkey)
Ivory (Controlled by Monkey)

No Sources of Iron ANYWHERE

2 sources of horse (CoD & Monkey each)




BARBARIANS

When you trade maps, all barbarian camps are updated.

We have 1 camp SE of Gibbon (SE corner of map)
We need to disband this before is produces horsemen

We have 1 camp SE of Bonobo (We know about this)
This has already spawned horsemen...which we will need to deal with.
And protect our road network

We have 1 camp on the other peninsula.
Not much we can do about this one.
We cant get there, and I dont want to send any mercs that far away just yet.

	13-02-2004 18:38									#335
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We definately have more in common with Monty than we do with CoD.

Lets work hard in building a relationship with Python.
Split the continent even.

Con ?

	14-02-2004 14:35									#336
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610bc

Finally found the time to play the save.

This is what it is like when I opened it.
Barbarian horsemen have killed both the CoD & Python warriors.
They have also killed our worker. Harold Holt. (It was a jinxed name anyway)

When the save was opened

The settler produced in Orang-utan was supposed to head North.
With all the barbarians, I have decided to send him NW to our 9 tile ring.
It is simply not safe up North yet, and we need our mercs protecting our current settlements, not new ones.
Also, there is fog within our core between Siamang & Gorilla.
If a barb camp appears here, we are screwed. So I decided to fill the gap.
It also gives us a nice lift off point to ferry new settlers over to the western peninsula

I sent Zena from Macaque to cover the settler. It means making one of Macaques workforce into a specialist to avoid disorder, but the settler build time does not change at 2.

Next turn, move the settler first. If it's safe, Zena does not have to follow.

We have 3 barbarian horsemen south of an undefended Baboon.
I moved the Merc from Gibbon to Baboon. Hopefully the three horsemen will suicide themselves against him.
There must be more horsemen down there. We have only 1 merc for defense.

Chimpanzee finishes a Galley.
I order a worker...we need them.

Baboon is 2 turns from finishing a barracks. I could switch to merc & lose 6 shields? I decide to let it continue and finish.
Giles, from Prime central moves into Baboon to help with the barbarians.
With some workforce manipulation, the barracks will now be finished next turn.

Gibbon is only 2 turns from finishing a temple. Again, I decide to let it finish, although we could really use some more mercs.

Willy moves east towards Chimpanzee

We have 2 mercs in Orang-Utang.
I move 1 south into PC to stop disorder.
The other moves NOrth to deal with the barbarians there.

Our southern galley, I have moved North. There is a barbarian galley right next to it, and I just dont want the hassel.
Its more likely we will meet another civ further north, so its probably better stationed up there.

The new galley from Chimpanzee follows suit, and moves north.

Washinton our worker finished his mine between Baboon & Gibbon.
Our workers are precious, and there are barbs around, so I reluctantly move him into "7" without ordering a road.

We have a warrior & merc in Siamang. 3 barb horsemen can attack Siamang. I decide to fortify both.

Mazaru the merc is protecting our new settler up north.
He could attack the barbarian horseman which killed our worker.. but that would leave our settler open to attack if the Merc fails or more barbs to the west. I decide to move both onto the settlement area.

Churchill our worker is right next to a barb
I decide to risk him, and start building a road.
The merc we have in Mandrill moves south to protect him.

I move Cheeta & Jojo into Bonobo. We need them for protection, not for show against CoD.


OK - We have Republic in 22 turns @ -3gpt. We have 119g.??
We need to discuss this with Python !!!!
Have they done a deal with CoD yet ?
Why did we get currency for free from CoD ???


I think next turn, the barbarians are going to attack us.
Our mercs should hold.
But we cant cover our road network. The barbs may pillage everything

Final Pic

Last edited by Hot_Enamel on 16-02-2004 at 16:09

	16-02-2004 06:00									#337
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Dammit - I fogot to load the pics.
Will do it tonight.

	16-02-2004 16:11									#338
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Pics have been included in the report.

	17-02-2004 07:37									#339
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Just so it looks like there is some activity in our forum

Pic with some notes

	17-02-2004 23:08									#340
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SPAM

	18-02-2004 05:59									#341
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quote: Originally posted by MJW SPAM

Echo . . . . Echo . . . . Echo . . . .

	18-02-2004 08:20									#342
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Hi H_E. Just getting to the forum now. Wow - what a turn. Good decisions on the moves. I agree with needing more mercs - the barbs hit about 6 turns too early.

Sorry about not mentioning the map deal.

Regarding currency - con has to look into the deal. I think we can solidify something long term which includes democracy from us. I can pursue it tomorrow - I think con is struggling with his kids having colds.

Now - regarding the FP and city sites - if you tie that discussion into the possibility of 'accessing' some of CoD's land - which geopolitically looks very promising, then I could see the FP being further north, probably where Mandrill is.

Your city plan for the peninsula works - but sure has a lot of cities packed on some fairly marginal land. A FP in Mandrill would help corruption in the NE end of the peninsula where the best land is.

And my other comment - is that Python sure got a flying start. But overall, I am not displeased where we stand so far.

Thanks again for playing the turn. If you want to play the turns for awhile, that would be OK with me. I may be pressed for time. Maybe I will take over con's FA duties for a bit.

	18-02-2004 08:49									#343
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Who ever gets the save can play it.

It's just that you have beaten me to it for the last month/s?

Whatever mistakes are made...we deal with it.
This game is for fun...I am not too worried.

We definately need to sort some deal out.
I think (but are not sure) that CoD are into the next age.
We still lack 2 techs, are not even close to reseaching Republic, possibly do not have enough cash to buy it from a civ on the other continent, and have barbs raging all over the place.

But I am pleased with where we are
I enjoy these challenges.

Beta...if con is having difficulty, then take over the diplo stuff by all means.

	19-02-2004 08:36									#344
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590bc turn played

H_E - I have the same philosophy regarding not only this game - but all the games I am in. It ain't life or death - other than in a civ3 metaphorical sense. Which is a comment I don't even understand. Too much wine.

The north:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...590bc-north.JPG

Barbarians all over the place. I settled where the settler was. I understand the city ring thing for the FP, but do not want to lose the settler to barbs - and the FP is still not a given as to location. This is a great site. We settled. Renamed it Capuchin - after taking the pic for the upload.

Also moved a NM from Siamang out to the hill top. Time to engae the barbs. I suspect he will survive and will draw a numebr of barbs his way.

The south:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...590bc-south.JPG

Barbarians all over the place.

Two warriors now in Chimpnzee; two mercs in Baboon. The worker moved north - he can start the irrigation project north. Changed macaque to a NM from a settler - which gives us two out next turn - in case the barbs get into the infrastructure - we will want to clear them out.

Adjusted city wf in PC for happiness.

North galley moved north - south galley moved two tiles, and fortified south of the barb galley.

Barracks completed in baboon - now building a NM.

There are 25 barb horsemen in or near our territory right now. Monkeys - sharpen your blades. Duty calls.

*Beta tosses his banana peel over his shoulder and reaches for his sword.

	19-02-2004 20:04									#345
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You guys know what this means with all these barbs correct?

TWO other Civ's have entered the next age, that is the trigger for the massive barb uprisings.

	19-02-2004 20:06									#346
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Let me see what I can diplomatically, I have been "distracted" this past week or so, let me get back into the saddle again, I hate to let you guys down.

And I agree its a game, it aint looking good for the Monkeys right now but what the he11?

	21-02-2004 07:22									#347
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570bc turn played

The north:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...570bc-north.JPG

We have an elite NM - courtesy of the barbs. He moved and killed another barb on the outskirts of Capuchin.

I have moved a warrior from Bonobo to Mandrill.

The south:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...570bc-south.JPG

Settler has moved into position to settle next turn.

Republic in 20 turns.

Macaque produced NM - he mobved south. Now producing settler.

Gorilla - produced NM - moved east to head north to Siamang.

Chimpanzee - has a warrior and a vet NM.

Baboon - has a vet and a reg NM and now a warrior as well - but facing a big stack of barb horse.

PC - produces a NM next turn, Suggest a settler after that.

Worker in the south has started the GIMP - Great Irrigation Monkey Project - to take irrigation to the plains to the north. Timely now that our other second ring city is going in. And more imporatntly, it gets him away from the barbs in the south.

The two galleys moved north and south.

And - I sent Mysticism to Python unaccepted - just to get the trade talks going.

Last edited by Beta on 21-02-2004 at 07:28

	21-02-2004 08:34									#348
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Beta, where did churchill go ?

I played the same time as you did, but you sent yours off first. Lucky I checked.

I suggest workers from Baboob, Gibbon, and Gorilla.

Note, that we are under seige from 3 different barbarian tribe !!

	24-02-2004 05:59									#349
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I will be playing THE turn shortly. Just after dinner. This one should be interesting.

It looks like we are agreed on the strategy. Load up with monkey poo!

	24-02-2004 06:43									#350
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Can you be in chat when you do it at apoly?

	24-02-2004 06:56									#351
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Good Luck.

	24-02-2004 07:09									#352
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Look at the Python thread, I had a chat with OCT_X tonight, its a war of extintion (sp?)

	24-02-2004 09:21									#353
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550bc turn played

-almost exactly as H_E laid out in the other thread.

con and I played the turn via chat to double check the moves.

Siamang changed to archer.

Changes in the south upped gold production - and with the slider to 90% we get democracy out in 15 turns. Going to be close.

I will post pics tomorrow. Gotta crash right now.

Thanks for the plan H_E! We will make the best of this mess. And con's chat with OctX makes for good reading.

Good night.

	24-02-2004 09:44									#354
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Yes, I had fun with OCT_X tonight.

The Buckwheat statement is going down in the Simian History books

Mandill up north was changed to warrior H_E, we thought we would risk it and see if we cant get him out before the abandon.

H_E, I want you to look seriously at whether we should abandon or bunker at siamang. We can still pop walls there before they get south.

Another thought that Beta and I had was take the settler north of Gorilla (8,8,8 at beginning of turn) and build another camp at 2,3 of siamang to cut off the route thru the mountains.

Thats if we decide to hold siamang.

We will look to our minister fo war to gvie us a recommendation on that one.

Its gonna be a tough call. I suspected a war of extinction because of our cramped geography. Oct_X's chat pretty much solidifies that thought in my mind anyway. i caught him off guard in the ISDG chat room and I think I got some good intell, as you can see he finally caught himself after spilling some of the beans. And he is a good guy but a high school kid, he is no where near as shifty and downright nasty as you or I are

So from now on its no holds barred, we do what we need to do to survive.

I also want you to look at wf in the core, beta did someswitching to get us republic faster. I dont know if that is a good idea or not, my guess is we will need to pop rush before than and you know what that does for happiness.

Its a choice between Republic and optimizing the core for war, we need to decide what to do now and then stick with it till we survive or ie in this war. I would like to hear your thoughts on that as well.

Sh1t, I get busy for a week and all hell breaks lose

We should think about the diplo dispatch to CoD as well.

	24-02-2004 17:17									#355
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Here are the pics from the turn:

North:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...550bc-north-run!.JPG

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...-north-run!.JPG

South:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...550bc-south.JPG

H_E - in the south it was simply a matter of keep two units in Macaque, and a unit in PC. That allowed full wf useage - ie no entertainers. That gets the NM's out earlier, and gets us democracy sooner.

Sooner or later they will be able to attack a NM. But even having half a GA is better than none. Especially under the circumstances.

Over to you H_E. It does look like we can save all the NM's, except for maybe the one from Bonobo. Depends on what they do with their horsemen.

Also - as con pointed out - we need to decide on Siamang. We either rush walls, or a nm, next turn. We can get 30 shields with the pop rushing. It is still 20 and 10 is it not?

Having the archer and some warriors up north to take out the Python horsemen if they get ahead of the sword pack will be very useful.

Last edited by Beta on 24-02-2004 at 21:30

	24-02-2004 18:31									#356
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I was definately thinking about retreating all the way back to our core.

I have had success in doing this in PBEM (misfits), so it was my immediate thought.
But perhaps bunkering at Siamang will be better.

I am not sure about using our settler for another city though. What we want is a target for them. Something that they have to go through. By having two cities, we will have to split our forces.
By having one city, we know where they are going to attack, and can have the city well defended.

I am not great on working out long term strategy. I can open a save, and see the immediate best moves, but I have no idea howmany NM's we are going to have in Siamang when their hoard arrives.

Anyway...
Siamang seems the best option.



Now to our GA.
15 turns to republic..5 turns of anarchy.
I dont think we are going to make it.
Our GA will be set off before we are in republic, and I am not sure if having x turns of anarchy during a life or death struggle is a good idea.

I think we are going to have to live with a Despotic GA.
What do you guys think?


It's late now... and I havent been able to do any work on war plans.

I think we can do something on the Diplo front however... See the Python thread

	24-02-2004 21:43									#357
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Here is our military-

North - including Siamang and everything north:

NM's 5.
Warriors 2 (but will likely be toast)
Archer 1

South

NM's 6 (excludes the one on monkey island)
Warriors 3

Soon
4 NM's out in the next 4 turns. And if we let the cities grow - we should speed up production.

Important point - if we conclude that we will not be able to delay the GA sufficiently to allow us to jump to democracy - then we should consider using the gold for happiness control, which will allow us to grow the cities larger without needing units in them.

This will delay democracy research, but it would then be a moot point.

I guess the point is whether we want any of our GA in anarchy - and if the answer is no - then we should slow down research now.

It all depends on what happens on the diplo front. If Python pauses to consider it - or delays their advance for any reason - we will have a chance.

But if we abandon Siamang - Orangutan is only 10 tiles (and 10 turns or less) away for their sword stack.

(btw - who is the stupid ass who suggested we expand up there anyway... )

Last edited by Beta on 24-02-2004 at 22:02

	24-02-2004 22:20									#358
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So - the question is - do we bunker in Siamang??

Pros:

We can have walls there quickly.
We may be able to slow them up a bit.
We can get most of our current NM's up there to make a stand.

Cons:

If we don't build walls, we can rush another NM.
The terrain is not great defensively.
We may get chewed up piecemeal - ie some here and some further south.
We still have barbs to deal with down south.
More road to dismantle.

Some other related thoughts:

If we take our stand further south, we will need to build some walls in selected cities. We will also have to defend against a march through the mountains - but a handful of NM's should be able to do that.

I will be taking a look at the combat calculator tonight to get some idea of attack percentages for swords and horses against NM's.

Also - do you see any advantage in building archers - 10 shields cheaper - and could form a decent counter-attacking force, if stacked with NM's. I appreciate they are not as versatile as NM's, but then we may not be that wiling to attack with NM's.

And a last observation. The Python stack may have to wait at least one turn for the catapults to catch up.

Last edited by Beta on 25-02-2004 at 08:02

	26-02-2004 22:33									#359
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Python has the save, if they play quick its bad, if they take there time it could be good

	27-02-2004 02:49									#360
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Have you heard anything from them regarding our offer ?

(Again .. I doubt they will accept)