11-12-2004 19:25									#331
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My message to Cort Haus, concerning both our troops movements, as well as a possible trade with Sunshine:

quote: Hello Cake or Death, My idea would be to go for Gorilla now. Both our stacks would move 4-4-2, staying in safe positions all the time. I'd rather keep them together for as long as possible, while forcing Monkey to either take the fight, or keep abandoning cities. Currently, I see no other approach that would make this possible. Also, the display of forces might be a trap, trying to lure us by showing only a part of their army. That's another reason not to split up, I think. Another matter has arisen. We have been contacted by Sunshine. They are asking about a trade of Theology for Invention and/or Gunpowder. According to diplomatic records, we researched Invention together with you (through funding). The situation on Gunpowder is not very clear - especially our right to sell it seems questionable from what I read. Have you any ideas about a possible trade with them? -- Modo

	11-12-2004 20:29									#332
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quote: Sorry Modo, I have already played the turn, moving south towards Pri Cent. If we are to stick safely together you can move 3 and Monkey can't get you. CoD are steaming ahead with building a new combined-arms group to defend on the hills against a possible Monkey flanking move, so we don't spend time zig-zagging. We don't want to wait for Monkey to get Invention, and we can keep the pressure on now without risking our rear. We want them to force them to disband as many cities asap to push their support bill above their GPT and send them into Anarchy-Barbarian-mode, ending production and commerce. If we force them to disband PriCent I think their Capital will move south, rendering Gorilla/Macaque and the third western city corrupt. Either they abandon the west or split their forces, or try and send all their forces north. By that time, CoD can build defences on our southern border to deal with it. I explained to Trip from Sunshine that CoD, Python and Tabemono own the rights together for Invention, but only CoD and Tabemono researched Gunpowder. However, in order that Python could recieve GP despite not being able to pay for it, I said to Tabemono "Let us give GP to Python and the rights to sell to the the other teams are yours". Not a great deal for us, and bad play by me, but there was no other way we could pay for you to get the GP you needed - and I had no time available to try to negotiate something better. Tabemono have ignored my last 6 PMs and emails about trading for Theology, so I don't know what's happening there. I think that SS would be getting too much with Theo=Invention + GP, even if Theo went to 3 teams. It I wouldn't mind knowing what Tabemono say to SS about it. One idea was for one of Tabemono/Python/CoD to recieve Theology for Invention with a 20-turn NTA, and the other two getting it after 20 turns. Or for the three teams to give pay a cash supplement to all get Theo. SS want a deal including GP for obvious reasons, but that's (a) complicated and (b) too good for SS in my view. -Cort

	11-12-2004 20:50									#333
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quote: Hello Cake or Death Thanks for the info about trades. If nobody answers your PMs, perhaps the guys you try to contact are not in charge anymore? Perhaps posting in the open forum might help? A complete silence seems unlikely, unless... If they keep still because of some bad intentions, how long do you think we should wait before acting? By acting I mean trade (and thus keep better relations) with someone on the other continent. Of course, at the moment, that means Sunshine. After all, the other teams know about the war with Monkey, and they know that a large part of our armies is south. Granted they don't have the exact numbers, but still... If I was one of them, I'd seriously consider starting an invasion right now. Might be my paranoia, but it seems like a real possibility. Either way, I will try to contact Tabemono myself, to see if they answer at all. I'll let you know what we will do with our stack, when it's decided. Personally, with your current move, I'd go for some offensive action in the other direction (south-west, or west - finally trying to draw some blood ), but it's a team decision. So it will probably wait until right before the save is played. -- Happy Monkey hunting. Modo

If anyone is reading this, please say so. I'm feeling kind of lonely int this forum.

	12-12-2004 10:46									#334
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Catching up with your last few posts right now. I'm checking it every other day or so, if not every day, even if I'm not saying much at the moment.

	12-12-2004 18:27									#335
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Catching up with your last few posts right now. I'm checking it every other day or so, if not every day, even if I'm not saying much at the moment.

Ditto for me.

	12-12-2004 18:42									#336
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OK, here's my thoughts on the battlefield. As CoD is keeping to strategic form (GS, anyone?) and going through the hills, I think we should do the same. In fact, they can take the adjacent mountains, and we'll take the hills. Any other approach means leaving ourselves open for attack on flat land. The only problem with this approach is that we'd be leaving a route open to Seige Perilous - we must put a scout unit in place for early detection, so that we could then swing off the hills to draw them in.

Remember, the longer and safer this war progresses, the better for us. We are not prepared to fend off a post-war backstab from CoD and we need more time for domestic issues before building more units.

I think this is the time to be smart, not brave.

	12-12-2004 18:55									#337
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Concerning a post-war backstab... CoD have admitted, that they are preparing a second stack to go after Monkey, or keep their territory safe from a counter-attack. If they wanted to backstab us, they'd be able to do it now, and with effect. Based on their actions, I think we're safe. They don't seem to be planning anything against us, or they obviously wouldn't be warning us.

But I agree that not aving losses has it's merits. Most of all, we are not in the position to send more reinforcements, so the longer we stay alive the better.

	13-12-2004 08:58									#338
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CoD's been open enough with us in the past that I think we're generally safe from a backstab. Besides, if either of us attacked the other, hell would be raised in the public forum, corresponding to a great loss of an already tarnished reputation.

Also, my apoligies for not speaking up as well. I have a terrible tendancy to just read without commenting sometimes...

	16-12-2004 03:02									#339
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With the save came a kind request to answer Trip's question:

quote: Hoping to hear something about Invention or Gunpowder before the turn of the next millenia.

Any suggestions what to tell him?

	16-12-2004 22:38									#340
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Trying to contact Tabemono, before talking to Trip again. Sent this to Kloreep:

quote: Hello Tabemono We have been contacted by Sunshine, regarding some technology they want from us. They have asked if a trade of Theology for Invention and/or Gunpowder was possible. As you know, we have no right to sell Gunpowder, but we did participate in researching Invention. We have talked to CoD about this, and we should be able to work out a solution. We would like to know what your position is on this. Is a trade possible in your opinion, or is it not? If we can do it, what would be your terms? -- Awaiting your answer with interest. Modo

	18-12-2004 02:38									#341
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Look, Tabemono does have a voice.

Message from Kloreep:

quote: PTWDG II: Theo-Inv-Gun Trade Proposal I propose the following as a Sunshine-Tabemono-CoD-Python trade. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I believe that Tabemono, Python, and CoD each own 1/3rd of Invention, having payed 1/3rd of the cost each. (I know we have 1/3rd of Invention, but I don't remember if CoD and Python invested equally or not. BTW, you guys didn't trade Invention to MAST and LL, did you?) CoD payed 1/3rd of the cost of Gunpowder and thus owns 1/3rd of it. Python received it but didn't pay us (Monotheism screwup on our part). I propose we break up Gunpowder rights, giving CoD the rights to Python and Monkey, and Tabemono the rights to Sunshine, MAST, and Latin Lover. CoD can collect payment from Python if they feel necessary (I guess that would be about 7 tech points worth of gold, but it would be between you two). Tabemono can sell Gunpowder on its own continent. This would mean the Theology trade would work as follows: Python pays Sunshine 14 2/3 tech points (1/3rd of Invention); they owe Sunshine compensation for 25 1/3 tech points. (Roughly 100 gold, dividing by 7.) CoD also pays Sunshine 14 2/3 tech points (1/3rd of Invention); they too owe Sunshine compensation for 25 1/3 tech points. (Roughly 100 gold, dividing by 7.) We pay Sunshine 62 2/3 tech points (Gunpowder and 1/3rd of Invention); Sunshine owes us 22 2/3 tech points. (Roughly 85 gold, dividing by 7.) Strict NTA: All parties agree not to trade the techs received to other civs. If this is agreeable to your teams, I'll send this on to Sunshine.

	18-12-2004 03:57									#342
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I sent the proposal along to CoD, just in case they didn't receive anything from Tabemono.

quote: Hello Cake or Death Tabemono is alive. This came in today, from Kloreep: quote: PTWDG II: Theo-Inv-Gun Trade Proposal I propose the following as a Sunshine-Tabemono-CoD-Python trade. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I believe that Tabemono, Python, and CoD each own 1/3rd of Invention, having payed 1/3rd of the cost each. (I know we have 1/3rd of Invention, but I don't remember if CoD and Python invested equally or not. BTW, you guys didn't trade Invention to MAST and LL, did you?) CoD payed 1/3rd of the cost of Gunpowder and thus owns 1/3rd of it. Python received it but didn't pay us (Monotheism screwup on our part). I propose we break up Gunpowder rights, giving CoD the rights to Python and Monkey, and Tabemono the rights to Sunshine, MAST, and Latin Lover. CoD can collect payment from Python if they feel necessary (I guess that would be about 7 tech points worth of gold, but it would be between you two). Tabemono can sell Gunpowder on its own continent. This would mean the Theology trade would work as follows: Python pays Sunshine 14 2/3 tech points (1/3rd of Invention); they owe Sunshine compensation for 25 1/3 tech points. (Roughly 100 gold, dividing by 7.) CoD also pays Sunshine 14 2/3 tech points (1/3rd of Invention); they too owe Sunshine compensation for 25 1/3 tech points. (Roughly 100 gold, dividing by 7.) We pay Sunshine 62 2/3 tech points (Gunpowder and 1/3rd of Invention); Sunshine owes us 22 2/3 tech points. (Roughly 85 gold, dividing by 7.) Strict NTA: All parties agree not to trade the techs received to other civs. If this is agreeable to your teams, I'll send this on to Sunshine. I'm still waiting for responses of team members, so this is simply a notification, that a trade is possible. We will tell you, and Tabemono, what we think, when we think, what we think. I think. Anyway, tell us, what you... err... think. -- Me, Myself, and I - Modo

	18-12-2004 04:14									#343
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And the prompt response from Cort Haus (CoD):

quote: Yeah, let's do it 100G for Theology sounds OK

	18-12-2004 05:50									#344
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Sounds reasonable to me: We get theology, get out of technology debt, and Monkey gets nothing.
Let's trade!

	18-12-2004 14:24									#345
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Sent messages.

To Kloreep - that we accept, and that they can talk to Sunshine now.

To Cort haus - that the deal is on, and that Tabemono will do the rest of the talking.

	19-12-2004 02:25									#346
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From Kloreep. This is what Tabemono sent to Sunshine:

quote: CC: PTWDG II: Theo-Inv-Gun Tech Trade Hi guys. We've finally worked out the tech rights with CoD & Python, and here's a trade proposal: Sunshine gives Theology to Tabemono, CoD, and Python. All three teams agree to a NTA on Theology. Sunshine gets Invention and Gunpowder in return, agreeing to a NTA on both techs. (I guess we'll say it's Tabemono's responsibility to send them, though it should be whoever gets the turn next once this is signed unless a turnplayer forgets). In order to balance out the tech values, Sunshine pays Tabemono 85 gold, and CoD and Python each pay Sunshine 100 gold for a total of 200 gold. (Net gold gain for Sunshine: 115)

We will have 100 gold next turn. One Spear upgrade will have to wait, should the turn come in after Sunshine accepts.

	27-12-2004 19:13									#347
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Sunshine sent Theology unaccepted. We need to give them the agreed 100 gold, to complete the deal.

And, just for kicks, our current international situation. F11 screen in 350 AD:

Attachment: ptwdg2 - monty python - 350 ad - demographics.jpg
This has been downloaded 34 time(s).

	06-01-2005 02:19									#348
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A message from Cort Haus

quote: Happy New Year to you Modo! The furry foe have Gunpowder! Hopefully they won't get the chance to use it - for a while - but it shows how foreign interventionists are interfering against us. Latin Lover is the most likely suspect, as Tabemono and Sunshine have signed agreements against that sort of thing. The fact that Sunshine have only just got Invention and Gunpowder is only coincidence - or is it not? We should consider our diplomatic response. Fact is - all the other civs have a rational and legitimate cause to support Monkey against us, and we have to accept that. We can, however, nurture a legitimate thirst for revenge! Primate Central has been disbanded, and the capital shifted to Chimpanzee - the western hill city. We continued south. Our second wave of units proceeds - shortly we will have another 30 to send south. One thought - we're assuming that Monkey will hole up in a hill city, but they might be evacuating units to Monkey Island. More likely is defence-bonus armageddon in their new capital. If a foreign sponsor is going to give Monkey SP and money for upgrading to LB or Muskets, we should block the sea-lane to the oter continent. Astronomy is mandatory, Navigation is not, so another team is unlikely to research Navigation just to supply Monkey. CoD have 1 galley watching that sea lane. A second would block Monkey's supply. Can Python send a galley to that tile to block that possibility? Our naval forces have clashed with the Monkey navy in the south who have inflicted some casualties we have to replace. Regards, -Cort

	08-01-2005 04:16									#349
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My reply:

quote: Hello Cort Haus, Considering Invention, and Gunpowder, perhaps a deal ran out, allowing someone to sell/gift it. Or, as you suspect, someone just felt like aiding the primates. The second possibility does seem more likely. Either way, we can't undo it, and - fortunately - it came too late to save Monkey. Keeping the anger for later seems like a good idea, though. As you know, we have 3 Settlers going along wth our force. We need more cities badly, but are reluctant to start claiming the former Monkey lands. First of all, a precise plan hasn't been worked out with you on how this should proceed. Second, although Monkey will probably turtle up somewhere, we think they might be trying to pull us into a trap. If they'd suscceed in taking a city, that could make our citizens very angry (War Weariness big time), perhaps even forcing us to sign peace. They didn't show us a big army yet, so the decision where to go is tricky. It seems like a good idea to block Monkey from trades and foreign help. I think we will be able to send a Galley to aid. After we've built one, that is. -- Cake for us, Death for Monkey Modo P.s. The Quest for the Holy Grail continues.

	10-01-2005 07:27									#350
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No suprises, I guess. We could build a galley in Castle Aaaaugh starting next turn.

	13-01-2005 18:27									#351
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Some info from Cort Haus.

quote: We were thinking of getting a temporary city down to claim the Ivory for whichever of our civs needs it most. It could be moved later if needed, but for now whichever civ needs it most should have a city or colony there. We have no war-weariness yet, only war-joy - as Monkey declared war on us, so Python may need it most. As for a trap - well, we are building east and west fleets to scout either side of the continent, and our Home Guard is proceeding well. Economic development in the former jungle area is financing this. We have to keep the pressure on to force them to disband cities to force them into anarchy, or they'll just keep poprushing units. We suspect the Holy Grail is down there on the ice somewhere. -Cort

I hope we can move a Worker into the capital, and show them the Holy Grail soon.

	30-01-2005 20:48									#352
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quote: Hi Modo, Monkey have disbanded the hill city on the east which we were threatening. Question now is South or West. South would clean up the East Side of the Ice, but West threatens the capital. Do Python have a preference? The alternative is to do nothing. I feel we ought to carry on forcing them to disband, though now they are in anarchy they can't do much with the cities except hide troop numbers in them. They might be evacuating to Monkey Island. If so, perhaps we could negotiate a peace with them - if WW is becoming a nuisance. -Cort

	31-01-2005 23:02									#353
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We haven't really had anything happen to add to our WW, have we? I vote for pushing on.

	01-02-2005 06:38									#354
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WW really isn't that bad right now, I think. Our GA is coming soon, anyway...

	02-02-2005 04:02									#355
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The only thing I can remember that should have led to WW is the Great Swordsman Massacre, and that hasn't been repeated, so whatever WW we had after that should be the level we're at now. In fact, my memory may be failing, but have we even directly engaged any Monkey troops since the massacre?

	02-02-2005 04:11									#356
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Wow, someone is actually reading this.

We are just moving the stack. This was going on for the past few turns, without any fights, as Monkey is just walking away all the time. We are currently running 10% lux, and even have "spare" happy citizens in some big cities. Fighting would be even beneficial, becasue we could really use and MGL for a wonder. In short: we don't have WW problems at the moment.

	02-02-2005 23:53									#357
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I was thinking more along the lines of we could really use an MGL for the FP.

	03-02-2005 00:12									#358
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi I was thinking more along the lines of we could really use an MGL for the FP.

Hey, we could use three even better.

Alright, I'll tell Cort Haus, that we can handle the current War Weariness just fine. And that we want to start planning cities soon.

	15-02-2005 22:52									#359
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Sent to Cort Haus:

quote: Greetings, gallant ally! We would like to inform you that we plan to begin the repopulation of the former Monkey lands soon, as per our pre-war agreement. The first wave of cities are planned for 144, 1112, and 223 of Siege Perilous. Barkeeps and hookers in SP are going to be sad to see the settlers go, but the government feels that enough of a frontier buffer exists to avoid a Monkey counterattack on the new cities. Before they actually make the move out of SP, though, we would like to get your input on whether or not you share our views regarding the safety of starting the repopulation. We would also like to verify that we do, in fact, remember the arrangement properly, as quite a bit of time has passed since it was made. Our understanding is, basically, that you got the SW peninsula unimpeded and we get the Monkey lands. If this is inaccurate, please let me know. Thank you, and more cake for us and more death for Monkey, Solomwi

	15-02-2005 23:22									#360
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That is the first time I hear of Settlers in Siege Perilous. Are they not with the stack moving through Monkey lands?