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DaveMcW
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From Monkey:
quote:
Dear Dave
Greetings from those hairy creatures down south!
Sorry about the delay in finally replying, I have been busy and the team has been busy as well.
We would be more than happy to trade you mapmaking for any tech we do not have yet. We believe you are researching along the top of the tech tree and whatever you have to trade would be fine, adjusted for points between the two techs as usual. We would be more than happy to give you an IOU if the trade favors us or would hope that you would reciporcate if the deal favors Monty.
We would be more than happy to trade maps as well. We have CoD's map and would hope that would be worth a tech point or two.
We were wondering what your plans are for getting Republic. The price from CoD has been steep. We were wondering if you would like to enter an agreement were one of us researches and the other funds the accelerated research of the first. After we are done we share the tech. Would you be interested insomething like that? Please let us know. The longer we both take to get Republic the farther CoD is going to get ahead of us.
And again great doing business with you guys.!
The Monkey Team hopes there are many fine shurberries in your future
conmcb25 (Steve)
Monkey Ambassador) |
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DaveMcW
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I recommend we offer them Currency and World Map next turn. But if there are objections to giving them our map, just offer Currency.
They haven't figured out that we already have Republic. Any ideas on what to tell them?
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:29
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3 messages from Arrian:
quote:
Understood about Construction (20 turns). We can research Polytheism in 4-5 turns once we turn research back on (it's currently at 0%). Staying at 90% tax for a while longer sounds good, since it can help with rushbuilds and whatnot. When you have a chance, can you tell me the exact turn will complete Construction, so we can synch up?
I've worked out a new war plan. This one is really cutting things close (with your troops moving right behind, and also ahead of ours). Bear in mind I wrote this for CoD, so it's from our perspective:
New war plan:
T95: Python marches to CoS1.
T96: Python reaches Ciao33. Iron received from Python. 10 warriors reach SF. Rush barracks for 136gold. 2 warriors at Swindon12 move 222. Horse at Ciao2 moves to Swindon8 (so that Python can pass).
T97: Python reaches Swindon12.
12 warriors upgrade to swords in SF (480g). Horse at Swindon8 holds. Archer and spear off the road near Corinth (screening our warriors) move out of the way (archer8, spear2?). Shuffle spears down south to hide SF1 from Monkey. Settler complete in Izzardia, moves 211. This will be our combat settler.
T98: Python reaches Corinth23. New galley from Plymouth moves 232. 4 swords from SF move3. The other 8, plus 1 horse, move1. Horse at Swindon8 moves to Swindon12. Settler from Izz moves to Swindon12. Sword complete in Silesia, moves to Swindon12. Silkfest gifted to Python.
T99: Python accept SF, march to SF11. Load 4 swords on galleys, galleys sail to SF11122. 8 swords, 4 spears, 1 horse to SF12. Settler, Sword and Horse at Swindon12 move to Corinth23.
T100: Python marches to SF111 or SF112. Our forces march to SF112 or SF122. Galleys sail south. Horseman, Swordsman and settler move to SF11, OR move to SF44, joined by regular archer and a spearman from Corinth, to assault the Monkey silk city.
...
Our workers will start working on Corinth6 next turn. If they chop and then road, IIRC, that will take 9 turns (3 non-industrious workers). If it would help the war effort to receive silks faster, I could order them to road (3 turns) first instead.
If we use this plan, we will need 136 gold from you on T96, to rush the barracks in Silkfest.
How long do you want us to keep iron? As it stands now, our 4 remaining chariots are being used as scouts/Latin Lover watchers and I'm actually not that concerned about upgrading them, so we can keep iron for a while if you would like.
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quote:
I just received a PM from the Monkeys. They are turning CoD's offer down and will be researching republic themselves. Also, they intend to build their next border town at Silkfest111. So that's where it will begin, around T99, five turns from now.
Also, how does Turn106 sound for us doing the war/peace thing to cut our trades? That way, you will get your iron back at the start of T107... you will be ironless for roughly 10 turns. CA alone can pump out 10 vet warriors in that time.
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quote:
Sorry for sending so many messages. Things are getting very interesting. We estimate about 7 turns until LL make contact with Monkey (maybe more, maybe less, it depends on how both teams move). By that time we will be at war. I think it would be prudent if we approached LL together (perhaps a PM signed by both teams) with an offer of money or tech or maps in exchange for agreeing not to interefere in any way (including providing Monkey refuge), before they meet the Monkeys.
The last thing we need is LL gifting Monkey a city on their continent.
Hopefully I will hear back from Master Zen (LL ambassador) soon about whether or not they want republic. Then we will have a better idea of what they want, so we can make an attractive offer.
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:29
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My response:
quote:
the usual short begin-of-work message from me:
- We can't get to CoS1 next turn, because our forces aren't concentrated in CdL but more to the north. We didn't put them in cities, because those could get investigated by Monkey. So we can arrive at the positions mentioned by you one turn later, i.e. like in your previous plan. Sorry about this, but as I said I didn't have the opportunity to check it myself.
- Construction will be there in 23 turns (should be 230 BC, I said 20-something).
- Your timing on the end of the horse/iron deal sounds about right.
- Monkey asked us for a research partnership concerning Republic, i.e. one researches it at 100%, the other funds him to cover the losses. They said that CoD wants "steep prices" (hehe). I recommended to decline this and to tell Monkey, that we can't wait so long and will buy it from you as soon as we have the money. This will also explain our government switch in a few turns (which means, btw, less warriors from CA, oh well). The time our forces go south is best spend on anarchy, later it could hurt us.
- I expect the worst from LL. I'm pretty sure they will let Monkey escape. Oh well, not that it matters much. |
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:29
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From Arrian:
quote:
Ok, so you will march into our territory on T96, reaching CoS1 on that turn. That's fine. I will hold up CoD's forces for one more turn then. This means both of our armies will reach the border to T99 (CoD's side of the border, but Monkey will see the stacks).
That will mean the barracks rush will occur one turn later, on T97 I believe, costing 132 gold. So if you could send us 132g on T97, we would appreciate it.
23 turns to construction, T117. Thanks for the info.
Why does it not matter if LL saves Monkey? |
My short response, regarding the last question:
quote:
They'll be gone from our continent, that's what counts. Who gives a damn if they hold a grudge, as long as they remain insignificant? Besides, if the gifting cities/warping units/speeding workers/whatever mess starts again, I see this game go to hell as fast as the first one. |
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DaveMcW
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Please offer Mathematics and World Map to Monkey next turn, if we haven't done it yet.
My reply:
quote:
Hi conmcb25,
We are sending Mathematics over for Map Making. So we owe you 4 tech points.
We would be happy to send over Currency too, and take an IOU for 12 points towards our next deal. Unfortunately we have most of CoD's map already, so I don't think we can give you any credit for the map trade.
CoD has promised to trade Republic for a deal involving Currency and Construction (which we are researching). But if you research Republic we would be happy to give you a nice deal and make CoD give us something else!
-DaveMcW
Monty Python Ambassador |
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:29
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From Arrian:
quote:
I assume you know already, but just in case you didn't see them, we've got barbarian uprisings on our hands. 2 other civs have reached the next age, obviously. One of those uprisings is from a Camp south of Silkfest (22222 or something like that), east of a Monkeytown. Our warrior was on his way to nail the camp, but when he got next to it, he saw 16 horsemen in it.
Latin Lover have agreed to remove their warrior from our west coast, which is nice, and apparently they've moved their galley back north to go get him, which is fantastic. That galley was headed down towards Monkey. So I sent MZ a note suggesting that, in the spirit of friendship, they sail north since that will get them contact with another civ the fastest. If they go for it, we might still be able to prevent a Monkey escape. If not, we've still gained a couple of turns.
LL wanted to sell us Construction and Polytheism for the promise of a medieval tech. They told us they already have a deal for republic. I told them we already have a deal involving Polytheism & Construction and that perhaps it is best to wait until the next age to work out trades, so we are clear of our present deals. Python and CoD should discuss how we would like to proceed with tech trading now that LL (and of course other civs they know) are in the mix. |
This is breaking news, and we should think how we get par in this tech race. If we continue to research Construction at a 40-turn pace, we (both CoD and us) might get 20 turns behind in research.
Important: Since I will resign my status as player in three turns, it would be good if my successor took over this discussion. I changed the timing (I said after we switched to Republic), because our troops are already marching and I don't want (under no circumstances) to get involved in the upcoming war.
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:29
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From Arrian:
quote:
The barbarians caught us off-guard as well, but luckily for us, we had just destroyed a camp to our west, so I do not think we have waves of barb horse on their way to CoD's lands. Almost all of our units are in the south, preparing to attack Monkey. We do, however, have a few chariots in the north that could potentially help you fend off the barbs if you need our help.
Regarding the tech situation, well, LL is open to selling Polytheism and Construction. We could buy those techs from them and then set up a research deal with them for the early middle ages, or we could research the techs ourselves with CoD researching and Python assisting with cash (you pay us 1/2 the cost of researching each tech, with devaluation factored in, and we research as fast as we can). I know that CoD can research Polytheism in 4 turns, I'm not sure about Construction. Whatever we do, I'd like it to be coordinated (not necessarily openly so) so that we get the best deals possible out of LL. |
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Octavian X
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Probably buried under piles of Literature, Biology, or Government homework
Jan 2002
time: 23:29
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Before I start sending these off on my own, I'll first post my own proposed message for comments...
quote:
Hello Arrian,
Sir Ralph has informed our team of his intentions to retire as chief turn player. I intend to take his post, , as well as chief diplomat representing our team to CoD.
I think that we can likely redirect some swords intended for our attack to defend the nothern flank. If we see any signs of a larger-than-expected barb attack, we would greaty appreciate the assistance.
Tech-wise, I think an assisted tech-research plan will work out well. A deal can be worked out as our options become clearer. I certainly would have no objections to paying half a tech's cost to CoD. The more coordinated we can work these thngs out, the better for the both of our teams, I believe. |
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Octavian X
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Probably buried under piles of Literature, Biology, or Government homework
Jan 2002
time: 23:29
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Believe it or not, but Arrian beat me to the punch.
quote:
OctavianX & Sir Ralph:
CoD has the turn (T97). There are a couple of glitches in the war plan. Glitch number one is the money for Silkfest's barracks (132g). I thought you were going to send that for this turn. We can cover it for now, but could you send it next turn?
Second, we have 4 workers at Swindon1, mining. They will be able to move out of your way next turn. I figure that's fine, since your army is spread out over three tiles anyway. This gives you the opportunity to consolidate them at Ciao33. Please leave Swindon7 open next turn. Our workers are going west, and they need the road at Sw7 to get where they're going.
Things are otherwise fairly good. There are 16 barb horse down by our southern warriors. I expect our brave fellows will die badly between now and next turn. Unfortunately, my main worry is that those barb horse will serve to promote Numidian Mercs to elite just in time for the war. No matter.
It appears Latin Lover have picked up their warrior (who we had mostly surrounded) and are now sailing north, as I suggested they do. This will delay their contact with Monkey.
We project you will reach Silkfest (or SF11, which is in Monkey territory) on T101. It is our intention to gift you SF on T100, as we move our troops out that very turn, probably to attack Mandril.
-Arrian |
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DaveMcW
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Consolidation is fine, we should try to strike with our entire army together whenever possible.
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Octavian X
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Probably buried under piles of Literature, Biology, or Government homework
Jan 2002
time: 23:29
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quote:
Hello Arrian,
Sir Ralph has informed our team of his intentions to retire as chief turn player. I intend to take his post, , as well as chief diplomat representing our team to CoD.
I think that we can likely redirect some swords intended for our attack to defend the nothern flank. If we see any signs of a larger-than-expected barb attack, we would greaty appreciate the assistance.
Tech-wise, I think an assisted tech-research plan will work out well. A deal can be worked out as our options become clearer. I certainly would have no objections to paying half a tech's cost to CoD. The more coordinated we can work these thngs out, the better for the both of our teams, I believe.
132g has been sent to you, accepted.
We will also go ahead and aim to consolidate at Ciao-33 in preparation for the attack.
Lastly, I want to address the issue of the start of the war - what specifcally should be addressed in any sort of annoucment of declaration of war? Would it be public? What kind of tone would it have (serious, humorous, etc)? My only instinct is to make it a public one, at least one before Beta does anything to make us look excessively evil...
~Octavian X |
Above message sent.
Last edited by Octavian X on 14-02-2004 at 08:56
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Octavian X
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Probably buried under piles of Literature, Biology, or Government homework
Jan 2002
time: 23:29
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From Arrian:
quote:
OctavianX,
Thanks for the update. Things seem to be moving ahead smoothly.
As for the "declaration of war" I had intended to send a PM to conmcb25 and leave it at that. I was going to avoid the public forum (if possible) for two reasons: first, because contact with the rest of the world has not yet been made as it was in PTWDGI, so we would in effect be giving up intelligence info to the others; and second because the last thing I want is to piss people off. My experience with the public forum, as a member of GS, has not been good. I'm sure you understand. If Monkey goes public, so be it, and I will take my lead from them. If they're humorous about it, so will I. If they are serious, then I will be too (and I will say little, hopefully).
I look forward to working with you during the war, and also in the aftermath, when you will be resettling the south and jumping your palace (I think CoD will also be palace jumping, so perhaps we can work through that together. I've never done it before).
-Arrian (Rob) |
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Octavian X
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Probably buried under piles of Literature, Biology, or Government homework
Jan 2002
time: 23:29
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From Arrian:
quote:
Octavian X,
Ok. Here is CoD's pertinent order of battle, if it helps in your decision-making:
We have 1 swordsman completing soon in Silesia. In the south, we have 5 or 6 spears, 2 catapults (and we will most likely rush a 3rd out, since it's almost done anyway), 2 horsemen, 1 regular archer (we do have a veteran far to the southwest, but he's watching for barbs & Monkeys out there) and 12 veteran warriors  We also have 4 chariots up north, so whenever you can give us our horses back we can upgrade them to horsemen. In fact, if it will help the war effort, we could break the trade via you capturing our catapults.
My current plan, should the war proceed (I think it should, despite the problems) is to drop 1 horse + 3 spear (or maybe 2 horse + 2 spear, not sure yet) off from our galleys near Primate Central and pillage as many of Monkey's core tiles as we can. Our galleys should be useful later, since we know that Monkey has settled the island to their west, which we will need to deal with. I'm still not sure what to do with CoD's warriors. I loaded our 610bc save last night, zoomed out, cleared the map... and sat there for about 5 minutes, just staring. A continent this big, with all those hills & mountains, and not one source of iron? It's ridiculous (worse, say, than Stormia's lack of saltpeter). I'm surprised the iron didn't relocated somewhere else on our continent. Somebody out there has a whole lot of iron!
Anyway, let me know what you guys think about the war in general, and the horses in particular (when to break the trade, and whether or not you think a catapult transfer is worthwhile). The sooner CoD gets our horses back, the sooner we can upgrade our chariots and start building new horsemen. They're not the best units against Numidians, but they're sure better than warriors.
-Arrian
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To Arrian:
quote:
Arrian,
Ah... I was under the assumpting only CoD lost it's iron. If we're out of iron as well... wow...
As I've said, we're still discussing our options. We will almost definetly proceed with the attack. The way it looks right now, we'll end up consolidating our forces at some point, and unleashing their unholy fury all at once. From there, we will likely do the same as you are revert to horses and archers to take the second wave of the attack, if necessary. Hopefully, our bad RNG luck with the iron will make up for itself with good luck against the N. Mercenaries.
As for the horses, considering your situation with the iron, I don't think we'd have any objection to giving up the horses soon. Of course, that's pending our own discussion.
I do know I'm being indecisive, and I hate it when I do that. I hope I'll be able to give you a final word very soon.
~Octavian X
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Octavian X
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Probably buried under piles of Literature, Biology, or Government homework
Jan 2002
time: 23:29
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From Arrian:
quote:
Octavian,
CoD never had our own iron. Yours was the only one on the continent (and our horse is the only one, unless you count the horse on the island Monkey has settled in the southwestern bay). You lent yours to us so we could upgrade our warriors. We were 2 turns away from that upgrade when it depleted.
I've put together a plan to get horseman production ramped up as fast as we can (including using a chunk of the gold we saved for upgrades on shortrushes). We can also spend some gold on additional catapults if need be - those can be useful against tough defenders like Numidians (or Immortals on mountains ).
What do you think of the catapult transfer as a method of breaking our trades? Since it would be done on your turn, Monkey would see us at war for a turn and know something was up, so this should be done RIGHT before you strike. We can move the catapults onto the war road directly into the path of your invasion force. Like I said, we have 2 now, and can easily rush a 3rd to completion.
So we're talking about a turn or two from now. Sound like a plan?
Also, CoD plans to begin Polytheism research next turn, at 5-turn pace (we could do 4, but there's a fairly significant deficit at that point). We should figure out how we want to work the tech situation...
As I recall, Python still owes CoD 4 research points from the old Republic <-> Math + Currency deal. We also gave WC & HBR in anticipation of getting Construction from you (and also for the war, obviously), since I think we needed Polytheism+WC+HBR+the 4 points in order to match Construction (even then, CoD might have been a tad short, and owed you gold or future research... I can check on that). Since then, however, we've discovered that our continent is lagging in tech. IIRC, you have ~20 turns left on Construction. Which means if we change nothing, CoD will have nothing to research for ~15 turns after Polytheism... and we will fall rather badly behind the rest of the world, save Monkey.
I don't know what Python's treasury looks like, but perhaps you could arrange to purchase Construction from LL for both of us? We can provide Polytheism, and then call things even and set up new trades for the next era. Speaking of which... I'm sure Python is going to devote a significant portion of its economy to resettlement of the south, building a FP in the north, and doing a palace jump (unless you get very lucky and get a leader). No doubt there will be a time when Python's research capabilities do not match CoD's, though we too will likely be REXing into the west/southwest and doing a palace jump ourselves. I have no problem with CoD bearing a larger share of the research burden while you get yourselfs set (within reason), provided that you are serious about a long-term partnership with us. Frankly, given the resouce situation, I think we may really need each other more than ever.
-Arrian |
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Octavian X
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Probably buried under piles of Literature, Biology, or Government homework
Jan 2002
time: 23:29
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To Arrian:
quote:
Arrian,
The catapult transfer plan you present sounds like a good idea. Of course, I'm still not entirely sure about the timing. I do know that previous plans were made for assault timing - do they still stand with the new iron situation?
As for the tech situation: as of 590 B.C., we have 18 turns left on construction, with 843g in the Royal Vault, making 39gpt. Some deal with LL might be worked out, depending on what they want in exchange.
And, lastly - this turn, we completed a settler in Camelot, intended to build a city in exchange for Silkfest. Just tell us where you want him to found a city. |
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Octavian X
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Probably buried under piles of Literature, Biology, or Government homework
Jan 2002
time: 23:29
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From Arrian:
quote:
Octavian,
My current war plan:
This turn (T99, 590bc): we will be shuffling our southern forces, emptying Silkfest of troops (many of which are mostly useless vet warriors) and protecting the road from Monkey's site. We will also be rushing our 3rd catapult to completion in Corinth. We will leave Corinth23 clear for your stack.
FYI - One of our galleys, the HMS Frumpy, was attacked by a barb galley last turn and taken down to 1hp. It has been sent to Plymouth to heal, and this has slowed down our pillaging expedition, but not by that much.
T100 - You march to Cor23. We will now remove most of our spear wall along the Monkey border (all except the 1 at SF1, I think) and gift you Silkfest accepted. We will also move 3 catapults in behind your forces at Cor3.
T101 - You accept Silkfest, and then capture our cats, declaring war on us and breaking our horse trade. You then march the bulk of your forces to Silkfest11 (invading Monkey territory). This is an unroaded tile - those workers of yours need to get a road in there in order to bring up the catapults. Send us peace accepted. We accept peace, and send you a RoP accepted. We upgrade our remaining chariots to horsemen. The HMS Frumpy and its sister ship (the Dumpy, I believe) set sail with 3 spears & 1 horse aboard. Finally, our scout in the south, who is sitting on a hill just next to the bit of Monkey road that is in "neutral" territory (just north of Monkey's core), will move onto and cut the road.
T102 - You attack and destroy Monkey's hill town southwest of Silkfest. Your workers begin roading SF11. Your catapults, meanwhile, sit inside Silkfest. We move our newly upgraded horse (4) plus any new horses produced (at least 1, possibly 2, maybe even 3 with some careful shortrushing) to Swindon12.
T103 - Your forces probably rest on the ruins of Monkey's hill town. We move as many horses as we've got, plus a spear, a regular archer, maybe a vet warrior or two and our 1 vet sword, to Mandril6 (via the road, which is why I'd like your cats to stay inside SF, so that the gold hill at SF4 is open for our units to move through).
T104 - We destroy Mandril. You being marching south again. Road at SF11 should be finished, your cats may join your main stack.
And so on. Our pillaging expedition will probably land at Primate Central69 on or about T106, maybe T107.
Tech: Hmm, not sure. 18 turns to Construction, 5 turns to Polytheism (we will start this turn). That leaves 13 turns of CoD going all tax (80-90%). I'm now leaning towards just waiting. Feudalism won't help us w/o iron. Monotheism... heh, we're not going to be building any cathedrals for a long while. Engineering would be nice, though. I think saving up and then having CoD go flat-out for Engineering starting on T117 might be the best way to go. We have 2 libraries up, and I can see about a third, depending on how the war goes.
The Settler:
Please send him to Ciao 4441 (coastal, hill, next to fish). Just so we are all on the same page, it is my understanding that you guys need Silkfest for now as a barracks town in the south, but that after the war is won, you will give it back and we will build you a new city (possibly near where Monkey's hill border town is now) in exchange.
-Arrian |
I'll formulate a reponse later tonight. The prices LL is asking will be included as discussion points.
As a note, I'm in favor of the purchases - we have the gold that we won't be spending any time soon. 
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05-02-2004 04:45
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