29-12-2003 12:04									#241
	Turn 420ad played Get a bigger avatar today!

The turn was played in accordance with my moves, however there was one thing wrong. The forest chop allocated to Seabiscuit instead of Phoenix which caused the library to go down to 1 turn (with slight shield waste). Because of this I moved the WF to the coast tiles early for the extra food and gold. I will rework my future planning thread to accomodate this. New orders will be up soon.

In addition the new caravel was renamed V.C.S. Exploration (as in Vox Controli Ship Exploration). The other active galley was moved into Resurrection and upgraded.

We have 247 gold with +24 gpt and Printing Press in 8 turns.

When RP sent us the turn they included a note stating they were sorry about our former cities. That meant they finally renamed them. Regarding the war on Bob, RP is completely off the continent now with their last city either abandoned or razed. GS still has two cities left, but they will probably be lost soon.

Voxtavia
The War
North Estonia

	29-12-2003 12:12									#242
	Turn 430ad Orders Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

- Seabiscuit finishes library. Start marketplace. WF to remain on two coast tiles.

- Hope grows to size 3. WF to fish and two mined grassland.

- Settler moves 2-1-4 to new city site on desert.

- Workers #1-5 move 2 to unroaded forest tile.

- Worker #6 begins mining iron tile.

- Workers #8-10 road hill tile.

- Phoenix WF to unroaded forest and roaded mountain.

- V.C.S. Exploration ?

- New caravel renamed V.C.S. ? and moves ?

	29-12-2003 19:47									#243
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Rhoth.

Regarding ship movement, VCS Ex. should be heading to the NE to explore that strip of 6 sea tiles. Let us hope it is shallow water leading to another island, and not just an extension of the continental shelf. Did you move VCS Ex in that general direction this turn?

And the new caravel - how about VCS Discovery?

It should also head to the area. I notice that the Legos have a caravel coming back north. Maybe to explore that spot to the NW they had indicated did not contain much...???

	29-12-2003 22:26									#244
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I did not send him to the northeast unfortunately. I was going to send V.C.S. Exploration through Panama Vox and around the western cape to first try to uncover the black tiles between us and our old homeland (for eventual ocean trading) and then head north to where the Lego ship was. If you want to head NE instead that's fine.

V.C.S. Discovery sounds great for the next caravel.

	30-12-2003 04:30									#245
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

No - your plan is fine. One Caravel should be enough. And it may be a bust to the N.E. Let's go with your plan. discovery does the NE, and Exploration heads the other way.

	30-12-2003 04:47									#246
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Okay, I will work out a string of moves for both for the next few turns and add them in.

	03-01-2004 20:41									#247
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Playing the 430ad save now. Will post shortly.

	03-01-2004 21:38									#248
	Support Apolyton

430ad turn played as per Rhoth's instructions.

A couple of notes and minor exceptions.

Seabiscuit is 100 turns to a marketplace at 1spt.

The Phoenix WF does not have a roaded mountain tile to work - I presume you meant hill.

VW#7 is on the iron tile, not #6. He commenced mining.

The unnamed worker near Renewal was renamed VW#6, and I assumed you wanted him to road the mountain gold tile.

VCS Discovery - I loaded in the Pikeman in case we come across land. Discovery moved 6-8-8 on its way to see what is out there.

PLEASE NOTE - I suggest next turn we move Discovery first to see if there is land there. That may dictate what we do with our worker in the New Voice - or not. For now - he is just visiting town as per Rhoth's plan for city grwoth. Note that the New Voice both grows and completes barracks next turn.

VCS Exploration moved 1-1-2. It is set to move through Panama Vox to the west coast next turn.

We have 271 gold and +24 this turn.

Printing Press in 7. (It would be less than that if the damn scientists would quit partying. )

Some rush build costs:

Phoenix - harbour - 176
PV - harbour - 228
Irony - library - 124
Hope - library - I forgot to look.

My two observations are:

1. as per above - let's see if VCS Discovery discovers anything.

2. Irony grows in 5 turns. It would be nice to have the library done in the next turn so that when the city grows, it will have additional coastal tiles to work with.

That's it. The pic:

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...ad-Voxtavia.JPG

On to Lego.

	04-01-2004 02:06									#249
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Whoops, I was going to update the moves for the caravels etc. and totally forgot. Thanks for picking up the changes as I meant them Beta.

Regarding the worker in New Voice I would still like to get the city up to size 5 for 10spt. It will produce 3 turn horsemen with no waste.

Regarding Irony's library, I don't have a problem with rushing it next turn. My original thought was to have the WF go to the iron mountain to finish the library in 10 turns but either way is fine.

I'll get the orders up soon (hopefully completely right this time )

	05-01-2004 10:59									#250
	Remove this text

Please reference this thread for turn 440ad orders. They have been updated per the new city name and the change to rushing the library in Irony.

	07-01-2004 10:43									#251
	Turn 440ad Played Support Apolyton

The turn was played per my orders except for one thing. I moved V.C.S. Discovery 8-9-8 instead of 8-8-?. It discovered nothing.

Lego offered us banking-accepted, which I accepted.

On Bob, GS has abandoned both of their remaining cities. The war is definitely winding down. There is definitely a big yellow stain on that continent.

We have 175 gold with +25gpt and Printing Press in 6 turns. I checked what our gpt would be without the 10% luxury and it would have been +34gpt. I didn't realize it would take away that many gold. So now I am thinking that perhaps we should request our luxury from GoW for next turn instead of wait 15 turns. Then the lux slider can go back to 10% until we start getting several size 6 cities. Thoughts? If this is fine by everyone I will contact Master Zen before the beginning of Gow's turn. Also, take a look in the RP thread as Togas offered 10gpt for Printing Press. I suggest we take it.

Lego Offer
Voxtavia
Panama Vox
The War

	07-01-2004 17:48									#252
	Got spare money?

Yes! to the 10gpt.

And yes to lets get the luxury now.

And what a disappointment regarding VCS Discovery. I was sure there was going to be an island there.

	07-01-2004 22:32									#253
	Turn 450ad Orders Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Turn orders verified.

- Irony finishes library. Start marketplace.

- WF in Hope to fish, 1 mined grassland, and mined hill.

- Immortal in New City fortifies.

- Workers #1 and #2 road plains tile they are on.

- Workers #3-5 move 4-2 to hill south of Phoenix and mine. This must happen after #1 and #2 road the tile.

- V.C.S. Exploration move 4-7-7

- V.C.S. Discovery move 8-7-4 (to finish on a sea tile to avoid sinking)

- If Glory of War sends the wines to us, then move the luxury slider back to 0.

Last edited by Rhothaerill on 08-01-2004 at 07:49

	08-01-2004 02:57									#254
	Inflate your Upload Space

I just ran a calculation on our future democracy research. The tech point cost is 68, meaning we will need 1632 beakers to research this tech. In 5 turns when we ramp up to full speed research we will be making (I believe) in excess of 50 beakers per turn. I'm not positive of the exact number as we also have upkeep expenses. Right now our gpt is based on straight gold with only New Voice having a marketplace. But with most of the cities having libraries that number will go up under straight research.

At 50bpt it will take us 33 turns to research democracy. However many of our cities will be nearly maxed around turn 20 and a size 6 city with a library will produce roughly 20 beakers at 90% research (after corruption and 10% luxuries).

So what all this is leading to is that I believe we will be able to research democracy in about 20 to 25 turns at near full research capacity. Obviously this is all a very rough estimate, but it's something to think about. When we finish researching democracy we will obviously give it straight out to Lego, but if we can trade it around to a few other civs and get some of that gold back then we will be in good position. I suggest we not sell it cheaply (assuming no one else has researched it yet). It's tech point cost is nearly double what printing press costs.

	08-01-2004 07:44									#255
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

As of 440ad, assuming we would have the 10gpt from RP and the luxury to allow 0 on the lux slider then we could put 45 beakers into play at 50% research and still maintain a +4 gpt profit. That number should go up as Renewal and Resurrection will have their libraries by the time we ramp research up. Once our cities start really growing (in about 15 turns) then that number should hit 100 beakers with a gold profit.

Last edited by Rhothaerill on 08-01-2004 at 07:50

	08-01-2004 08:19									#256
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hi Rhoth - I was doing some rough calculations on this as well last week. My concern is that there are clearly stronger researching civs out there. If we are beaten to democracy - which would not be hard for anybody but RP, then its value clearly diminishes. Maybe what we need to do is as you have done - come up with a reasonably firm date we can produce it by - and do this reasonably soon - as in well before we finish PP. Then we make our pitch and cut the deals even before we start producing it. This will discourage any of the stronger civs from researching it if they are confident they have a deal for it, and we lock up the deals now.

I think we have reasonable credibility on the world stage, and our perceived neutrality during the Bobian conflict. What do you think? One advantage we have going for us is that democracy is not a mandatory tech for advancement, so others may be glad to get it without researching it. On the other hand, some may be restless to get to the advantages of democracy. And a second advantage is that, as far as I can figure out, know one can start on democracy until we finish democracy. (You see, it all comes down to those damn scientists partying their brains out in Pee Vee. )

	08-01-2004 08:34									#257
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Ok - just looked at the save.

I suggest Discovery goes 8-7-4. Stretches the search a bit.

And Exploration 4-4-9???? We may want that quicj route across the ocean someday.

Now - I understand the plan for horsemen and knight upgrades. Can I make a pitch for a university in The New Voice. It would be done in 10 turns - and would boost culture - but much more importantly - research.

And - now thinking about the Library rush in Hope or the harbor rush in Phoenix....

Rhoth - I hope you don't think I am simply being contrary here; I am just looking at alternatives and trying to weigh some costs and benefits.

	08-01-2004 09:01									#258
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Beta Ok - just looked at the save. I suggest Discovery goes 8-7-4. Stretches the search a bit. And Exploration 4-4-9???? We may want that quicj route across the ocean someday. Now - I understand the plan for horsemen and knight upgrades. Can I make a pitch for a university in The New Voice. It would be done in 10 turns - and would boost culture - but much more importantly - research. And - now thinking about the Library rush in Hope or the harbor rush in Phoenix.... Rhoth - I hope you don't think I am simply being contrary here; I am just looking at alternatives and trying to weigh some costs and benefits.

Heh, look above for Discovery and Exploration. In looking at the save we will not be able to clear off the black ocean tiles without putting our ship at risk for sinking. I decided to send it north instead until we get Navigation.

And no Beta I don't have any problem with you suggesting modifications to my plans. This is a democracy game after all.

Regarding the University in New Voice, that will depend on what we want to accomplish in the future. Do we want to have a slightly better research option or do we want to start building our military? Either one is fine with me. I think we can count on Lego for defense (not that anyone would be attacking our rock anytime soon anyway ) if we want to continue with light military and go for the University. I still think the other cities should work on marketplaces after the libraries though because the maximum research we are able to do is 50% until we get some more gold and marketplaces going to make up for our upkeep expenses.

Regarding the harbor rush in Phoenix, I would like to keep that in as it is somewhat necessary for my plan. When it's ready to happen it should only cost about 40 gold but will give us the opportunity to get the city up to size 6 a bit quicker. I have actually been thinking about rushing the library in Hope, but it will be a bit more expensive. In 5 turns we will not have nearly as much gold surplus to play with so we have to spend it wisely.

	08-01-2004 09:06									#259
	Support Apolyton

Regarding researching democracy, I definitely agree that we should get some feelers out there for the other civs and see what is going on with their research engines. If we can persuade all of them not to research it and set up trade deals instead then it's a good thing.

	08-01-2004 17:56									#260
	Support Apolyton

For the ship moves - I think I planned it so they moved out into ocean tiles - but ended on sea tiles. That is safe. I am looking to expand by one or two tiles the shroud around Voxtavia - and well - see what we can see.

Yes - we should discuss the university vs military question.

And I see your point about the harbor in Phoenix. Let's stick with your plan.



Have a great day all!

	10-01-2004 13:26									#261
	Turn 450ad played Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The turn began first with GoW sending the wines and 43 gold accepted. Then Lego sent us chivalry. Nice start.

I played the turn mostly with my plans, though I incorporated Beta's change to V.C.S. Exploration as well as changing The New Voice to a university and Panama Vox to a library (which I was going to do later on per my future planning thread, but went ahead and did now so it did not get lost in the shuffle). I also switched the work force on the hills in Phoenix and Eternity. It will save us a few gold up front.

Lego has settled Port Hammer on the peninsula where they said they had a city going.

We have 243 gold with +33gpt and Printing Press in 5 turns.

GoW Offer
Lego Offer
Voxtavia

	10-01-2004 13:30									#262
	Turn 460 orders Get a bigger avatar today!

These orders have been verified

- Workers #1 and #2 move 4-2-1 to join with worker #6.

- Rename worker on hill to Worker #6. Worker #6 ends turn (to get into sync with #1 and 2). It wastes a worker turn, but does not hurt anything in the long run and it would probably mess us up otherwise.

- Workers #8-10 move 2-2-1.

- V.C.S. Exploration moves 4-8-9 (unless we see something when we move 4).

- V.C.S. Discovery moves 8-4-2 (unless we see something when we move 8).

Last edited by Rhothaerill on 10-01-2004 at 13:44

	10-01-2004 13:56									#263
	Got spare money?

Some interesting stuff.

If we decide to rush the library in Hope it will cost 92 gold next turn, 72 gold the turn after. Rushing the library in Panama Vox will cost 56 gold next turn decreasing by 4 every turn. Rushing the harbor in Phoenix will cost 48 gold on turn 9 when it is scheduled to be done.

Thanks to Lego's generous tech distribution we have 3 techs that Gathering Storm, Roleplay, Glory of War and NeuDemogyptica all do not have: banking, music theory, and astronomy. This could be very advantageous to us in our democracy dealings as no one has banking and Roleplay won't get it until almost the same time we recieve democracy (I'm assuming they are going to be GS's vassal the same as we are Lego's).

If we desire more luxuries in the future, GS has two to trade us, Lego has one, and ND has one (though many more to come with them owning RP's old lands). Roleplay only has one incense (our old one) so they probably won't trade.

Thanks to our libraries we are first in literacy though last in population (that will change in about 15 turns). Most everything else we are fifth (ahead of Spain but behind the others).

We finally moved over the 200 mark in score.

	10-01-2004 19:25									#264
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Gotta like it. Wine and money - all in the same turn.

The moves all look great. And I do like the university build better than horsemen at this point in time.

on the ship moves. There has to be an island out there somewhere....

on our tech status. This is remarkable, when you think of it. Although, we do owe a huge debt to to Lego for it.

Speaking of Lego - they mentioned way back when that they had a lux they could give us when we needed it. Keep that in mind for the next pop growth.

Another observation - a library built this turn. Two more in the next three turns. A harbour in 3. Hope's Library and the University after that. Not bad at all for a civ which was essentially reduced to nothing at one point.

Hail to the One! (and Rhothaerill )

	13-01-2004 03:44									#265
	Inflate your Upload Space

I did a bit of rough calculation and I think I'm going to be against rushing the library in Hope. Rushing it this next turn only saves 6 turns in which we could get one and a half workers out sooner. This would give us roughly the equivalent of 3gpt extra for those six turns. Also we would have the library for an extra 3 turns at the beginning of our ramped-up research which would equate to about and extra 3gpt during those three turns. However if you count in the 92 gold we'd have spend plus the 6 gold in extra upkeep then we have an output of 98 gold which would give us a savings of 27 gold over the long run. Not too worth it to rush, so I think I'd like to keep it building normally and use our gold elsewhere.

Regarding Lego's luxury, our cities will all be good to pop 5 under current conditions. Right around turn 20 of my orders is when several of them will hit pop 6 and need either the luxury or 10% on the slider. So if Lego offers us the luxury on turn 19 that would be great!

	13-01-2004 10:25									#266
	Turn 460ad played Get a bigger avatar today!

The turn was played per my orders. Nothing was discovered on the caravel exploration. Lego offered us gunpowder, which all other civs have.

We have 276 gold with +33 gpt and Printing Press in 4 turns.

Lego Offer
Voxtavia

	13-01-2004 10:34									#267
	Turn 470ad Orders Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Orders have been verified

- Renewal completes library. Start marketplace.

- Hope grows to size 4. WF on fish, 2 mined grassland and mined hill.

- Workers #1, 2 and 6 move 2-2-2 to hill tile S of Panama Vox.

- Workers #3-5 move 1-2-2.

- Workers #8-10 move 4-8 to hill tile north of Eternity.

- V.C.S. Exploration moves 7-8-6.

- V.C.S. Discovery moves 4-1-2.

	13-01-2004 17:56									#268
	Re: Turn 460ad played Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill Nothing was discovered on the caravel exploration.

Well, damn.

	16-01-2004 11:54									#269
	Turn 470ad played Suffering from ads?

The turn began with Lego offering Dyes. All moves played per my orders, with the exception of switching the WF in Resurrection to one hill/one coast to pick up one extra commerce point. Nothing was discovered by our caravels.

We have 309 gold with +35 gpt and printing press in 3 turns.

Pressing concerns: What do we want from GoW for printing press. And should we take incense from RP for printing press. We don't really need it right now.

Lego Offer
Voxtavia

	16-01-2004 11:57									#270
	Turn 480ad orders Full PM-box? Change here!

These orders have been verified

- Irony grows to size 4 and culture radius increases. WF to 4 coast tiles.

- Resurrection finishes library. Start marketplace. WF to 2 coast tiles for 2fpt growth.

- Memory finishes harbor. Start marketplace. WF to whale and coast.

- Rush harbor in Phoenix to maintain the ability to grow to size 6 on turn 20 instead of turn 22.

- Workers #1, 2 and 6 road hill tile (do this before all other worker moves).

- Workers #3-5 move 2-1 to hill tile currently outside Panama Vox's border.

- Workers #8-10 road hill tile.

- Rename worker on gold mountain near Renewal to VW#11 and moves 3-3 to mountain tile south of Renewal.

- V.C.S. Exploration moves 7-8-9

- V.C.S. Discovery moves 4-1-2

Last edited by Rhothaerill on 17-01-2004 at 12:58