31-08-2003 13:45									#121
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I'm going to return to this quote-

quote: Clinical trials suggest that between 60% and 70% of those given the active drug gain benefit. However, between 40% and 50% of those given placebo report a substantial improvement. This indicates that the clinical effect due to the pharmacological properties of these drugs is at best marginal.

So 60-70% of those given the drugs gain benefit. Millions of people, in other words.

Of those reporting benefits from placebos, were the positive results as effective or as long-lasting as those derived from the active drug? We'll never know, will we?

Of those not deriving benefit from the active drug? Mental health is a complex issue and it may take time to find a solution. Still, it looks like millions are benefitting to me.

Still- I'm clearly not the medical expert that so many Apolytoners appear to be on this subject. I only have my personal experience and my wife's professional experience to draw on, after all.

	31-08-2003 14:03									#122
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quote: So 60-70% of those given the drugs gain benefit. Millions of people, in other words.

As many as 83% of those would also gain from being given a sugar pill and told it was an anti-depressant.

	31-08-2003 14:24									#123
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I think placebo comes mainly from the fact that patients really aren't as sick as they think they are. The mind is generating a sickness because the patient is convinced of being sick, and placebo fights agst such mentality.

Drugs for mental illness i think is waaay too overprescribed. What's to prevent me to going to a doctor and telling him I cant stand being depressed even though Im just fine? Doc cant prove me wrong. He can check for some of my physiological symptoms, but mental illness relies heavily on the individual's judgement of whether they are ok or not. You can be severely depressed and think its normal, or you might just be experiencing frequent small depression cause your life sucks and think you need to take pills.

And like Oerdin said.. Just because society says its abnormal shouldnt mean you should kill what you are and be drugged up. That is just terrible thing to do to conform.

Last edited by Zero on 31-08-2003 at 14:34

	31-08-2003 14:49									#124
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In principal, yes, its a terrible thing to drug yourself up to conform. However, I think you need to bear in mind that not everyone on these drugs takes them simply because they are feeling a bit down and disillusioned with the world. True depression is a serious mental illness and needs medical treatment, the same as any physical injury. In some cases it cannot be solved just by 'pulling yourself together' or talking it through. If it is being caused by a chemical imbalance then medication is the only way to treat it.

	31-08-2003 14:51									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's As many as 83% of those would also gain from being given a sugar pill and told it was an anti-depressant.

I'll repeat my point, as you're being slow today.

Would that gain be as profound, or as long-lasting?

That's the basic shortfall of all placebo comparisons.

	31-08-2003 15:05									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Verres In principal, yes, its a terrible thing to drug yourself up to conform. However, I think you need to bear in mind that not everyone on these drugs takes them simply because they are feeling a bit down and disillusioned with the world. True depression is a serious mental illness and needs medical treatment, the same as any physical injury. In some cases it cannot be solved just by 'pulling yourself together' or talking it through. If it is being caused by a chemical imbalance then medication is the only way to treat it.

yeah in some cases. I said it was overprescribed, but I didnt say there is no such thing as mental illness like bodd is implying.

	31-08-2003 15:05									#127
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The placebo I was on doesn't seem to be working anymore.
I think I need a stronger one.

	31-08-2003 15:09									#128
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Laz, no I'd imagine the placebos aren't long-lasting or "profound" for those taking it. And neither, obviously, are the real anti-depressants if they have such little affect.

A less than 20% success rate for a drug hardly implies that we need to dish out more of them.

	31-08-2003 19:23									#129
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I've heard that Viagra can make you happy for short bursts of time. That, and turn your field of vision blue.

	31-08-2003 22:14									#130
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Yeah, same with ecstasy..let's raise income tax so everyone can have some of that as well.

	31-08-2003 22:53									#131
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I hate to say it, but the world would probably be a much happier place if everyone was on ecstacy. I mean, so what if everyone had no idea what they were doing half the time and died horrible deaths; they'd be 'happy' right?????

I'd far rather take ecstacy, believe me. How terrible that my illness is directly responsible for higher taxes, poverty, benefit fraud and all the other financial problems you poor people have.

	31-08-2003 23:08									#132
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Try snorting Pixie Stix - it's better than mainlining a placebo.

	31-08-2003 23:53									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's And neither, obviously, are the real anti-depressants if they have such little affect.

Link?

quote: A less than 20% success rate for a drug hardly implies that we need to dish out more of them.

Yet your own source suggests that 60-70% benefit from taking it....

	31-08-2003 23:55									#134
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Verres I hate to say it, but the world would probably be a much happier place if everyone was on ecstacy. I mean, so what if everyone had no idea what they were doing half the time and died horrible deaths; they'd be 'happy' right????? I'd far rather take ecstacy, believe me. How terrible that my illness is directly responsible for higher taxes, poverty, benefit fraud and all the other financial problems you poor people have.

*sigh*

You know people get permanently depressed from using X right?

	31-08-2003 23:59									#135
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yeah, but not from MDMA.

	01-09-2003 00:03									#136
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funny

	01-09-2003 00:04									#137
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looks aren't everything.

	01-09-2003 00:06									#138
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they should be

	01-09-2003 00:06									#139
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a regular at Poly and CG took X at a private party while I was in the UK

I was shocked

	01-09-2003 00:08									#140
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Why?

	01-09-2003 00:12									#141
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It's demonised in this country, I've grown up with the awareness that 100% artificial drugs are dangerous, it has never left my mind.

same with injections. I can smoke pot and I think I could even snort some stuff, but I could never swallow xtc or shoot h...

	01-09-2003 00:15									#142
	Remove this text

me either. Roll it up, light it up, inhale, exhale.

	01-09-2003 00:17									#143
	Put an end to popups!

yah

	01-09-2003 00:20									#144
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pass the duchy 'pon the lef hand side

<\\\\\\>*~~~

	01-09-2003 00:20									#145
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nein

	01-09-2003 00:32									#146
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: *sigh*You know people get permanently depressed from using X right?

Yes, strangely enough I am familiar with that fact. My post was actually ever so slightly sarcastic, i had not realised i had posted in a forum full of such literal and rhetorically stunted individuals.

	01-09-2003 00:33									#147
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Poppycock!

	01-09-2003 00:34									#148
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behave, n00b

	01-09-2003 00:37									#149
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hell no.

	01-09-2003 00:38									#150
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oh yes. if you're interested in apprenticeship, here's my card.

visit me in my manor next week between 8 and 18.