05-12-2003 21:29									#181
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Oops - I just ran a simple experiment -- in 1380 move the (fortified) archer from ST out onto the road - press enter..... along comes Greek dip and asks for parley! and a greek cattie comes up to the walls of lago -- but no loss of cities!!! Ah well Stu

I probably wouldn't have moved the Archer out of the city in the normal course of events, had it been me (though there's no need to fortify it behind walls, is there?).

So the loss would have been unavoidable except for the Crusader who had no movement points left, and the movement points were expended by the previous player (hopefully, productively). Normally a 2-move unit in a city is the 'offensive defender' - if there are no roads around the city, it can move out to spot approaching units (and at peace, a diplo could be expelled). If there are roads, a 2 move unit can do a perimeter sweep of the city, and even attack with a good chance of being able to return home.

Oh well (to paraphrase Stu).

No offense was taken, SH. As I noted several posts ago, if someone retakes the city, it can be theirs, or it can be given back to me if the capturing party wants a richer prize. As for myself... when it's my turn again...

	05-12-2003 21:37									#182
	Hey, I found the playlist! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This was 3 pages back

10 turns each.

1. STYOM
2. Old n Slow
3. Sparrowhawk
4. Jrabbit
5. Ben Kenobi
6. SG [1]
7. sirsnuggles (missing)
8. Julius Brenzaida
9..

	06-12-2003 02:34									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man

I hope we all have a similar attitude towards the Greeks.

Hopefully in the next several players we can cut the Greeks down to size and then focus on our more distant enemies.

	06-12-2003 04:38									#184
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

(South Park Counselor Mackey voice)
Um, yeah, the Greeks are baad, very baad.

Yes, but....

The Greeks, not being rule limited as to number of cities, have been very prolific. An intelligence check shows they now have 19 cities!! So I suggest you plan well and in depth, and if you are to launch such an enterprise, reach a common agreement beforehand. No one can go a larking and have this one succeed. With these rules, it won't be the usual Romp and Stomp. After capturing your one city each, all the rest must be razed.

I think this can only be done with locust clouds of vet spies, especially trained in the use of poison.

Monk

	06-12-2003 16:40									#185
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No Monk - my (already determined) strategy is - capture city - sell improvement - evacuate city - allow Greeks to walk back - repeat...

Admitedly it can be hard to get the final raze, but I have no problem with a Greek 'Empire' of a dozen size 1 cities

Stu

	06-12-2003 20:20									#186
	This is Terrorism!! Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits No Monk - my (already determined) strategy is - capture city - sell improvement - evacuate city - allow Greeks to walk back - repeat... Admitedly it can be hard to get the final raze, but I have no problem with a Greek 'Empire' of a dozen size 1 cities Stu

Interesting. This could work. Now convince your fellows and you are in bidness.

You do realize that the Greeks will be screaming about the evil Warlordian Terrorists.

Monk

	06-12-2003 20:38									#187
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Hmmmm....

quote: Each player may only build one city and capture one city. The goal is conquest. In other words, all other AI cities must be razed - may can do this with Spy-poisoning or simply attacking the city until it is destroyed, or by capturing a size 1 city (destroying it, but still getting pillage).

(just noticed the typo )

One way to interpret the above would be to say that if you can only capture one city, the capture-and-abandon approach won't work.

But in light of all that's happened, and the resulting need to compromise a bit, capturing and abandoning is ok. Perhaps I should clarify the rule to say, "you may only found one city, and you may only hold one AI city?"

Of course, you'll need to let the Greeks recapture each city you try this on, before you can move on to the next one... and that could take a while...



No plan survives contact with the enemy

	08-12-2003 09:56									#188
	Activity ho! Got spare money?

Here's the zipped save -- 1620 AD (8 turns).

Got a few things done, including our first Greek-razing. We're at peace with the Greeks and in democracy, and next up gets us the Lady, which will help fulfill our ultimate Fundy destiny (damned Senate not big on sneak attacks...).

IIRC, we're one tech from engineers, 2 techs from spies, and just a couple from RR/Darwin.

Full log Monday AM Chicago time.

Attachment: co_1620a.zip
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

	08-12-2003 14:23									#189
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I assume you went on a stealing spree because being only two techs away from spies would mean that you have to have Industrialisation, but you haven't got RR yet.
Well done to the dips for choosing worthwhile techs to steal then.
Unless you got Ind. by capturing a Greek city though...

	08-12-2003 15:15									#190
	Got spare money?

Come on young Jedi - let's be up and at them!!

Stu

	08-12-2003 20:18									#191
	Lagomorphic Log 1620 AD Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

After a rousing round of "spin the bottle" in closed-door session, the Council in its wisdom selects -Jrabbit, governor of Lagomorphia, as its next leader. He calls in his advisors, learning that the republic, bound by ancient traditions, remains a small group of well-developed cities, at war with the nearby Greeks. Cease-fires with Egypt and China are holding, and an uneasy peace reigns elsewhere. Our power is Inadequate and our reputation Spotless.

It's 1540 AD, and the current tax plan is 60-30-10. Accountants note a net of +138 GP per turn, while scientists whine that their paltry allowance prevents discoveries rather than enabling them (17 turns).

Knowing he a can only capture one heathen city, -Jrabbit surveys the nearby wonders of the world. Hmm. KRC in Athens. Cope's and LH in Six's Torch. Great Library in Thebes. Oracle, Shakes, and Newton all in Memphis (and it's not a capital!!) Pyramids, Great Wall in Shanghai. Hmmmm...

We decide we want Chinese maps. They have 4 spears and demand/receive Invention. After gifts of Iron Working, gunpowder, and Bridge Building, they worshipfully agree to share maps. Located to the NE, on same continent as Egyptians and French.

Minor changes in build orders. Defenseless Pax STYOM starts Musketeer, Spare Oval switched from Sun Tzu to Market. (Note to Sparrowhawk -- IMHO, Leo's vs. Sun Tzu is an either/or. It makes no sense to build vet units, then "promote" them to non-vet on upgrade.)

Sliders moved to 10-80-10 (7 turns, +11 GP). Scientists rejoice.

1550
The Greeks must be stopped! Forces begin to gather in Lagomorphia.
Market rushed in Spare Oval.
Musket rushed in Pax STYOM.
We continue building camels elsewhere.

1560
Nearing our goal, faders slip to 30-60-10 (+49 GP).
Increments everywhere.
Forces gathering, targeting vacant Greek fortress.

1570
Scientists discover Democracy. Ellies promoted to crusaders.
Choices include Chemistry, Chivalry, Physics, Sanitation, Theology, and Theory of Gravity. Wh have Leo's and need effective infrastructure with our small number of cities, so chemistry (pre-explosives) is next.
dip finds Thessalonica, bribes Greek settler for 400 GP (NONE).

1580
Babylonians learn Chemistry.
Democracy established. Sliders to 10-60-30 (10 turns).
Troy (4) attacked. We lose two crucs but empty city, now size 3.
Find Halicarnassus (3).
Bribe Greek ellie, 193 GP. NONE unit.
Adjustments for troops away from home...

1590
Chinese leak news of their imminent completion of WoW.
Greeks discover Metallurgy.
With troops and workers properly distributed, WTP Day celebrated in Spare Oval, Git's Hole, KenobiKave, and Pax STYOM. Too bad only one can grow. Aqueducts would be nice, but...
We really need The Lady. Food camels are all pointed to Git's Hole.

1600
French develop democracy (+Egypt, from GL).
Magellan's Expedition established in Beijing.
Heodotus completes epic history, in which he viciously describes us a "puny."
Greeks thoughfully repopulate Troy so we can attack it.
TROY RAZED! We plunder 10 GP and learn Metallurgy.
Greeks parley, CF agreed. Senate insists on peace treaty.

1610
Chinese learn chemmistry, start on Adam Smith.
Greeks start on Sun Tzu.
Pax STYOM spice (d) delivered to distant city of Marseilles. 528 GP!!
Sliders to 10-70-20.

1620
Egypt learns Explosives.
Musketeer in Git's Hole kills barb legion. No king...

Eight turns done. Tax plan is currently 10-60-30, ntting +10 GP and 8 turns/tech. We will discover Chemistry next turn. Some notes...

1. Lagomorphia will regrow to size 8 during our peace with Greeks, provided the horseman fortified south is moved to the closer fortress. (Why he produces unhappiness when fortressed 2 spots further south is a mystery to me...)

2. We currently have 6 camels in Git's Hole. They are earmaked for SOL so we can go Fundy and start kicking some Greek arse. (2 more food camels en route or being built. Git's building camel to be used for trade.)

3. There's a dye caravan moving overland -- demanded in both Sparrowville and Sad King Julius.

4. There's a silver caravan in caravel (or just boarding, don't remember), intended for demanding Egyptian cities.

5. I recommend a strong fundy build phase. It takes a lot of troops to raze a city, and it's pretty hard to support in democracy.

6. We're in a good trading space right now, and that should fuel our future advances. I'd also like to see some aqueducts built, followed by 5 years of celebration. One nice fact -- as long as our empire is this small, celebrations are easy to maintain (during periods of relative peace).

7. Once we get Espionage, a commie period of vet spy building is proposed. But I'm getting ahead of myself...

This is shaping up to be a really fun game...

	08-12-2003 20:25									#192
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york I assume you went on a stealing spree because being only two techs away from spies would mean that you have to have Industrialisation, but you haven't got RR yet. Well done to the dips for choosing worthwhile techs to steal then. Unless you got Ind. by capturing a Greek city though...

Yeah, that was a load of crap. Sorry, but it was late and I was mixing Scorched with Lazy Summer...

In this game, I got chemistry, so explosives (engineers) could be next.
We need Physics and Steam Engine before RR is available.
I do think that, after the Lady, Darwin's should be next, followed by Hoover's.

	08-12-2003 20:30									#193
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Did you build a Palace, or did I miss that?

Looks like good turns otherwise.

	08-12-2003 20:38									#194
	Couple more notes... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It didn't make my log, but FYI a palace will be completed in Lagomorphia next turn.

Also, a quick note on the rules...

quote: Good natured mockery of each others' cities is highly encouraged.

Sorry I've been lax on this...

Outside Lagomorphia, all the other cities are badly laid out and poorly decorated. Most are poorly defended and vital resources are underutilized.

With so few cities, perfectionist infrastructure is a must. I took the liberty of mining Sparrowville's coal. The gold should be next. I also build some basic defenses in our back-door cities of Pax STYOM and KenobiKave.

I wanted aqueducts but thought camels should be first. I wanted to trade but we must have the Lady...

The hardest part of this game is, with so few cities, to get all needed items built.

	08-12-2003 20:44									#195
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: 1. Lagomorphia will regrow to size 8 during our peace with Greeks, provided the horseman fortified south is moved to the closer fortress. (Why he produces unhappiness when fortressed 2 spots further south is a mystery to me...)

Units in fortresses within 3 squares of a friendly city don't produce unhappiness. Farther away, they do.

	08-12-2003 21:18									#196
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Nice turns Bunnyman.

Must be hard to build white goods when so many palaces have to be constructive. While you are correct that aquaducts are needed everywhere, I wouldn't advise building more than one at a time and then only in cities that can add many more citizens quickly. When you get explosives it will be easier but, for now, there needs to be a great amount of land prep to support more population.

Nice job razing Troy!! I get the impression that this tactic will become easier after Fundy so that you won't have to worry about units away.

Delphi looks like a good candidate for someone's second city.

Monk

	08-12-2003 21:29									#197
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@ STYOM

Has there been a ruling on a capture/starve tactic??

With Stu's idea approved the envelope has been pushed a bit. Once the city has been recaptured it no longer counts against limit. A variation on that idea is to capture the city, loot its units and white goods, and starve it down to a settler. Since that city no longer exits, should not its former plaque holder be freed to go after another city??

Monk

	08-12-2003 23:49									#198
	Re: Lagomorphic Log 1620 AD Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit (Note to Sparrowhawk -- IMHO, Leo's vs. Sun Tzu is an either/or. It makes no sense to build vet units, then "promote" them to non-vet on upgrade.)

Interesting, I tend to feel the opposite...IMHO I think they work very well together, Leo's upgrades your units (vet's or not), and then Sun Tzu's makes them vets again after their first successful battle (making vets out of newly constructed units of course). I think this is a great combination, but it's interesting to see you take the opposite view. I would still like to see us get Sun Tzu's , but am interested in what the rest of the Peanut Gallery thinks about this issue.

What say you all?

	09-12-2003 00:07									#199
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I like the combo as well -- I think that each helps make a good wonder better.

Sun Tsu allows the "re-" vetting of troops after the upgrade. Leo's offers the chance to zoom into third gear (after a pedal to the clutch) from second.

	09-12-2003 00:16									#200
	It's a Cost -v- Benifit Thing Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

@ Sparrowhawk

Right now The Lady is more important than STWA. Then, Darwin with it's nudge toward Commie/Espionage will be more important. Then it's too close to obsolescence.

Much earlier in the game, I agree that STWA + Leo make a good combo, for the reasons you mention. If you are fighting all the time. STWA also gets vet sea units after combat which is very nice...again, if you are in combat situations.

Others may favor the War Academy more. That's what makes for SXN "fun."

Monk

	09-12-2003 00:43									#201
	Remove this text

Yeah, but those vets only happen if they survive that first battle.

FWIW, overall I like Sun Tzu's better. In fact, one of my fave early victory conditions is "race to STWA and crusaders." While I used to be very enamored of the Workshop, I find that building all the cheap troops needed to make Leo's worthwhile to be draining on my overall economy.

Since Sparrowhawk chose the Workshop and we only have a handful of cities, STWA seemed an extravagance. If we gain STWA but miss the Lady, we'd have to slog on to Communism (and later, Fundy) before we could build a mobile strike force. This would take us "off the path" to the good fighting techs.

blahblahblah...

	09-12-2003 12:23									#202
	Re: Re: Lagomorphic Log 1620 AD Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Sparrowhawk Interesting, I tend to feel the opposite...IMHO I think they work very well together, Leo's upgrades your units (vet's or not), and then Sun Tzu's makes them vets again after their first successful battle (making vets out of newly constructed units of course). I think this is a great combination, but it's interesting to see you take the opposite view. I would still like to see us get Sun Tzu's , but am interested in what the rest of the Peanut Gallery thinks about this issue. What say you all?

I also like them together. Once you've built Leo's, you're stuck with the upgrade to non-vet problem. Although often those new non-vet riflemen or dragoons started out as humble warriors or horsemen so you've still made a profit on the deal.

Sun Tzu's gives you a slight work around for the upgrade problem. There are often easy units to kill for a cheap vet status - settlers, barbarian leaders, catapults and so on. Even with dragoons (the unit that IMHO suffers most from the upgrade), you can often arrange things so that your non-vet units finish off the badly wounded defenders. And you get all the standard advantages of Sun Tzu - no need for barracks to obtain new vet units. If you have a lot of cities the saving on barracks is worth it on its own.

RJM at Sleeper's

	09-12-2003 22:46									#203
	Re: Hey, I found the playlist! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

10 turns each.

1. STYOM
2. Old n Slow
3. Sparrowhawk
4. Jrabbit
5. Ben Kenobi (skipped)
6. SG [1]
7. Julius Brenzaida


Since BK hasn't been heard from for a while, we'll skip him.

In the interests of keeping the game moving along, BK is skipped until he indicates he's back.

Stu is next.

Last edited by Six Thousand Year Old Man on 10-12-2003 at 22:00

	10-12-2003 01:25									#204
	Re: Re: Hey, I found the playlist! Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man 10 turns each. 1. STYOM 2. Old n Slow 3. Sparrowhawk 4. Jrabbit 5. Ben Kenobi (skipped) 6. SG [1] 7. Julius Brenzaida

Damn! coulda played 2 more turns...

	10-12-2003 13:21									#205
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OK, guys, I'm on it - hopefully post in five to six hours

Stu

	10-12-2003 21:17									#206
	-- Greeks Put an end to popups!

1620AD = Inadequate, Peace, Democracy - RAR Git has to pause and check his dictionary - yes they mean exactly what he feared only Warlordian blood can be shed this turn! - Ah well - "Uncooperative, Peace = Sneak Attack" is a well know axiom and revenge is fun! Having absolutely no compunction for his predecessor's reputation changes unsuitable construction orders in Lag to Colosseum, Palace starts in GH. Sliders to 5.3.2 for cash economy.

1630AD = Chemistry->Explosives (no brainer); Lag builds Colosseum; no sneak attack, yet;
1640AD = Lago horse gets air ticket home, Lag celebrates; Palace in Git's Hole; Greek catapult agrees to join our gang - non! Fail to goad Greeks - this is boring!
1650AD = Git's Hole gets Lady; Spare Oval gets Aqueduct; Revolution, demand Greek gold - get war, kill cannon, ellie, capture Delphi, 32g, nothing to sell, rename "Not Git's", evacuate; crank up luxuries to preserve celebrations;
1660AD = Greeks recapture Not Git's ; Democracy; Buy Not Git's for 150g get catie & cannon - good deal;
1670AD = not much
1680AD = Greek diplo sniffing around Git's Hole; Aqueduct in GH; Greeks declare war, kill greek ellie, kill greek cannon on mountain; Silver(d), Keno-Alex, 295g; more aqueducts;
1700AD = steal Theory of Gravity from Memphis (capital );
1710AD = Explosives->Conscription; Not Git's dies producing an Engineer; Greek bully cannon kills engineer in mountain fort;
1720AD = not much
1730AD = Chinese come knocking at the back door! Blow away a couple of Greek cannon.

have fun...

Attachment: co_a1730.zip
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

	10-12-2003 22:04									#207
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Seems like a good set of nasty turns... hopefully we can grow our core cities to a good size, turn Commie and then poison our enemies

************official ruling************

As Jrabbit didn't get a Palace built in his turns, he must build 2 Palaces next time around. One in Ben's capital, and one in Lagomorphia.

************/official ruling***********

Julius is next...

	10-12-2003 23:07									#208
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Seems like a good set of nasty turns... hopefully we can grow our core cities to a good size, turn Commie and then poison our enemies ************official ruling************ As Jrabbit didn't get a Palace built in his turns, he must build 2 Palaces next time around. One in Ben's capital, and one in Lagomorphia. ************/official ruling*********** Julius is next...

I bet you didn't look at the Lago save as he rushed a Palace on his last turn only to have it changed to a colossem by Stu before hitting enter.

I think you went off with half a c**k.

Monk

	10-12-2003 23:10									#209
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OK, first, I did build it. It was SG who reappropriated the shields.

But if you're serious about enforcing such dire consequences, I'll be taking the 2 turns I missed (thought we were at 8, but 10 is the current norm) as part of the deal...

...and you can't stop me you fascist pigdog.

	10-12-2003 23:30									#210
	The fascists strike back! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Hmmm...

quote: After all players have played a round of turns, the second round will require a change of capital for each player (to that player's city, of course ) during that player's turns.

Technically, the capital wasn't moved until your turn was over. It would have moved to Lago on Stu's first turn - which I was going to allow on a 1-off basis. But thanks to Stu, you now you have a shiny new Colosseum for the Lagomorphia Cubs to play in, instead.

(Of course, I should have said: "...the second and subsequent rounds will require a change of capital for each player...". But we'll overlook that , as the intention was that the Palaces would move for every player from the second round on. )

Gotta enforce those rules or we'll have anarchy!

And yes, go on and take the extra 2 turns next time around if you want.