22-10-2004 00:41									#121
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quote:

Illuminatus wrote on 21-10-2004 20:49:
Hmmm, yes indeed. Spartans also offered us Flexibility without embargo for a large sum of credits. Perhaps we should coordinate our efforts so that one of us can aquire the tech and trade it to the other. No pressure intented.



This sounds like the Gaians can't offer any technology in return for Doc:Flex? To the Spartans I mean?

But AFAIK both the Gaians and the Angels have more or less the same technologies, so why asking credits from the Gaians instead of technology?
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I responded with:
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You are correct IT. We have offered technologies to Spartans but they have seemed more interested in getting regular payments of cash from us in exchange for their techs every single time. All their offers include credits from our side.
To be frank, I believe Spartan strategy is to sell same technologies to both of us, getting techs from one faction and credits from other, and preventing us from coordination of research in any way. I would like to propose coordination of our negotiations with Spartans, in order to prevent this strategy and unneccesary wastage of our resources. We could also force them to abandon their embargo rules since they would be left without other options. Do the Angels seem interested in this tactic?

	22-10-2004 01:39									#122
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I think this tactic (trying to sell the same technologies to both of us) might be an afterthought of the double comlink sale initiated by the Gaians, Lord Illuminatus. We are aware of this situation.

In case the Gaians have no Tech Treaty as we have with the Spartans, there is no obligation whatsoever for the Gaians to tell the Spartans when you have received/researched Doctrine: Flexibility. The only thing the Spartans could notice is that suddenly this technology is in the possesion of the Gaians, and that can be both by tech exchange or own research.
But this scheme depends on whether or not there is such an agreement between the Gaians and the Spartans.
---------------
GeoModder

	22-10-2004 12:32									#123
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We don't have any agreement, do we? I suggest we don't sign one until such a time as Sparta decides to come up with something more of a normal trading relationship.

We should encourage the Angels where possible to refuse Sparta's requests for large EC sums, as even if we bought tech off the Angels and recompensed them a bit, Sparta still gets the cash. It is only through such a cooperative restriction or reluctance on trading with Sparta can we force them to pull their combat boots out of their own asses.

And Obs - can you out these PMs etc in QUOTES please? It really helps when you do that to show it's not you talking. A couple of times I suddenly realised halfway through it wasn't you talking, and I needed to reread everything to get the sense of it.

	24-10-2004 13:12									#124
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quote: Lord Illuminatus, For your information, at present our negotiations with the Spartans regarding Doctrine: Flexibility, have been stopped. This information so the Gaian Council would wish to use this knowledge for a better trade of their own. Sincerely, IT GeoModder

Not sure if they agreed to a trade, but we shall find out that soon anyway.

	29-10-2004 19:17									#125
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Sent to Angels:


Our most recent comunique with Spartans has been rather unsuccessful. I am not aware of any moves made by Angels recently, but Kassiopeia of Spartans has responded in a concerning way. Our insistence on reducing time embargo spans to five years or eliminating them completely, probably paired with your own disagreement with Spartans has led to this:

quote: (Kassiopeia) We will from now on prefer to deal with the Angels and the Gaians as a single entity (and increase prices accordingly), since any technologies traded to you will inevitably spread between the two of you under this principle of "free flow of information".

We can clearly see that Spartan, being a momentum faction, s are bent on isolating factions and preventing free flow of information - exchange between us and others first by attempting to impose embargos on trade for long periods of time, and after we declined to that, this. I am disturbed by their unwillingness to cooperate (they also mentioned they are going to refrain from trading anything for the time being) since Gaian Union and Data Angels have always managed to negotiate a reasonable and profitable deal for both sides, despite sometimes lengthly negotiations.
We have not responded yet to their message yet, and we will take your opinin into consideration if you wish so, but as far as it seems to me we are going to put up with their conditions for the time being.
Doctrine: Flexibility would be immensly useful to both of us, not mentioning we have agreed to help you in that beeline in recognition for your help in aquiring IA, and we will try to trade for it in future, even putting up with their demands, including increased prices. If we are forced to trade for it as a single entity, Gaian Union shall gladly pay its half.
We will probe a tech from Hive this turn (which will be played soon, as I have been informed) - there is a small chance it will be Doctrine: Flexibility - expect a second PM informing you of whatever that technology.

-Regards, Lord Illuminatus

	06-11-2004 13:45									#126
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quote: My dear infotrader GeoModder, I have some strange news. As you probably know, we got Doc: Mobility and Gene Splicing in 2142 and agreed on a five year embargo for it. Now the Spartans have suddenly hailed us to notify us that the embargo lasts till 2148. , for no apparent reason. Unless they are trying to mess up our beeline towards Flexibility. Will the Angels finish research before that? If you won't finish research before that, I would prefer that we do not try to point them out basic math for the tech embargo. If you will finish research in 2147., we will point them out how long does five year embargo last and send you Mobility next turn. Also, if Angels have no preference for their following tech to research, we would like to offer you a beeline that will be very useful to both of us.

Sent to GeoModder.

	07-11-2004 00:12									#127
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quote: Hello again, Lord Illuminatus! All goes well I may hope? We do not worry for the embargo time increase of a year, our research is going rather slow. Our new Sinder, Mart, plans on sending an tech update next turn when we know for sure how our administrative changes will inflict this. Also, within the next Planetyear or two, I will start on a personal quest somewhere on Planet, so it might be better to forward future diplomatic posts to InfoTrader Mart, by address Anarchism Alley 7x5, Rock-Paper-Scissors, Planet. Sincerely, and Gaia's Speed IT GeoModder

	10-11-2004 00:33									#128
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quote: Well, our turn is nearing. Just reminding you that we'll send Mobility preaccepted next turn (2148) (due to Spartan claims about length of embargo). We got no response from Mart, on your plans for research after you get Flexibility. We would like to suggest a common beeline, however, estimates of your Flex completion year and rough estimate of your research rate are needed to validate if this is workable. It would either involve going for development of calculus or restriction lifting technologies.

Sent to Angels.

	11-11-2004 21:04									#129
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quote: I have replied Ambassador Ouro to his question. Shortly, an official diplomacy note will follow on our official channel on eventis. It is not a good turn of events to have open conflict between our three factions. The only party gaining anything from it will be Morgan Industries. Spartans have not performed any offensive action against us at this moment. IT Mart

quote: Indeed. Spartans were easy to cooperate with before, but it seems as if they tried to force their hand by bullying us - just to get their secret projects. We hope they return to normal. Also, I inform you that research on Social Psych is now complete, and our next most likely research will be Ecological Engineering, although there is still a debate. If you have an idea, you can feel free to suggest a beeline, but since we have Gene Splicing - the debate is whether to go for restriction lifting technologies then. If you feel in need of Gene Splicing we are open to negotiate trade. I am wondering if Angels are interested in beelining to Ethical Calculus with us? We could give you Social Psych and you would in return research and give us Ethical Calculus. CC and Democracy would be most useful for both of us, I believe. Mobility follows next turn. -Lord Ill

	12-11-2004 18:50									#130
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quote: To Gaian Union, Many thanks on the Doctrine: Mobility offer, it will allow us to quickly switch to Doctrine: Flexibility and further our standing agreement with you. Sparta has approached us, and withdrawn that same Fusion Power proposal, however they have also approached us with a more serious proposal that has not been withdrawn. In order for us to remain honest and open with the Gaians, our technology trade partners, we felt it was needed to let you know that Sparta has designs on the Command Nexus by offering us 3 technologies (Doctrine Mobility, Social Psych, Doctrine Flexibility) in exchange for completing Doctrine Loyality as soon as possible and forwarding this technology as we research it. It appears that Spartan Federation is not aware that you posses Doctrine Loyality. In case if you wish to complete Command Nexus, we will refuse the Spartan offer allowing them obtain Doctrine Loyality from us, as it is in current form. This refusal is necessary to protect our integrity, we believe. However, if you wish to complete Command Nexus and we refuse Spartans we would like to inform the Spartan Federation of the cause of our action informing them that you have doctrine Loyality and intend to build Command Nexus. We hope also that clarification of this issue will help to repair Gaian - Spartan relations, if both interested factions will choose to do so. Sincerely, IT FlameFlash IT Hercules IT Mart

Seems that Spartans are willing to give additional technologies to Angels (three even!). I see an opportunity here, what if we convince Angels to accept offer but redirect to Ethical Calculus in return for our files on Doctrine: Loyalty? We could direct our research towards Ethical Calculus and when we get Ethical Calculus form Angels we redirect towards Int: Int - CDF and Non-lethal methods included. I will ask Angels if they are willing to do this.

	12-11-2004 19:49									#131
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I have a better plan - tell Angels, that Sparta has Eth Calc and tell them to change conditions of the deal such:

1. Soc Psych -> Eth Calc

And no D:Mob, so the deal (S : DA) sounds

EthCalc + Doc:Flex for Doc:Loy

I think Spartans will accept

The deal (G : DA) will then be:

Doc:Loy for EthCalc + Doc:Flex, so DA will effectively be our dealmakers ( )

If DA don't agree to this, add Soc Psych from our side to this deal!

so it's
Soc:Psy + Doc:Loy for EthCalc + Doc:Flex


AND do it FAST, so they have not much time to think and we do not lose this UNIQUE opportunity


About IntInt - you can read about it in Research goals thread - we will trade this project for EcolEng + something as we don't really need CDF

So we switch our research to EcolEng and make this AWESOME deal and later trade for IntInt with Spartans!

	12-11-2004 21:07									#132
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Keep in mind we're already trading D:Mob for the Angels' D:Flex. If the Spartans' deal with the Angels changes to no longer include D:Flex, presumably that trade would still go through.

	12-11-2004 21:33									#133
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin I have a better plan - tell Angels, that Sparta has Eth Calc and tell them to change conditions of the deal such:

They have research treaty with them, they know which techs they have.

quote: 1. Soc Psych -> Eth Calc And no D:Mob, so the deal (S : DA) sounds EthCalc + Doc:Flex for Doc:Loy I think Spartans will accept The deal (G : DA) will then be: Doc:Loy for EthCalc + Doc:Flex, so DA will effectively be our dealmakers ( ) If DA don't agree to this, add Soc Psych from our side to this deal! so it's Soc:Psy + Doc:Loy for EthCalc + Doc:Flex AND do it FAST, so they have not much time to think and we do not lose this UNIQUE opportunity

I am not sure, if this will work, but we can persuade Angels to abandon both Social Psych adn Doctrine: Mobility from the deal, since we can give them that. I also put emphasis on us researching the Int: Int, if Angels got Ethical Calculus they would get CDF and Int:Int since they would redeirect to IntInt. Also, we need Flex more than Calculus - we sea former ASAP to cut the land connection with Hive, not to mention subsequent foils. On the other hand we are still expanding, and won't be able to prepare ourselves for a pop boom - and as such CC and Democracy can wait a while (running Demo would even take away free mins in new bases). I say we say Angels to accept offer, but also ask if they can get SotHB too - we can offer to provide them with Soc:Psych and Doc:Mobility, so it would be SotHB and Doc:Flexibility in return for Doctrine: Loyalty. We would give them Soc: Psych, Doc: Mobility and Doc: Loyalty for Ethical Calculus (which they would research), Doctrine: Flexibility and SothB (which would probably require additional incentives to be transmitted to Angels).

	12-11-2004 22:01									#134
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quote: say we say Angels to accept offer, but also ask if they can get SotHB too - we can offer to provide them with Soc:Psych and Doc:Mobility, so it would be SotHB and Doc:Flexibility in return for Doctrine: Loyalty. We would give them Soc: Psych, Doc: Mobility and Doc: Loyalty for Ethical Calculus (which they would research), Doctrine: Flexibility and SothB (which would probably require additional incentives to be transmitted to Angels).

You can change the deal as you want, but remember - we dont want to research techs that Spartans have!

Spartans are desperate, so they will be willing to give angels Eth Calc + Doc Flex for Doc: Loy

What we request from Angels should be discussed, but the 2 techs we can get from Spartans shouldn't be researched by anyone!

AND we have no time to talk round and round (Spartan desperativeness looks like they're close to researching it for themselves, in 2-4 turns) - draft the proposal, so we can make a quick look and propose ASAP!


AND:
We must make all effort to make this happen (unchanged!):
Eth Calc + Doc Flex for Doc: Loy
(Data angels give D:L to Spartans and receive the forst 2 techs)


If we give to DA:

1.Soc Psych B1
2.Doc Mob E1
3.Doc Loy C2

Than we can receive:
1.Eth Calc E2
2.Doc: Flex E2
and possibly SofTHB (if we give also BioGen, not sure if they have it) or Int Int as their next research option!

	12-11-2004 22:36									#135
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I disagree. We must research Int: Int in order to gain CDF - remember choppers cannot attack bases, and as such, land assault of bases are more viable option than building a wast number of needles. Angels would redirect their research towards Eth:Cal. Besides, if Sparta agrees to trade Eth: Cal to Angels, they might be afraid they will complete CDF before them so I don't think it will work.

	12-11-2004 22:42									#136
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quote: disagree. We must research Int: Int in order to gain CDF - remember choppers cannot attack bases, and as such, land assault of bases are more viable option than building a wast number of needles. Angels would redirect their research towards Eth:Cal. Besides, if Sparta agrees to trade Eth: Cal to Angels, they might be afraid they will complete CDF before them so I don't think it will work.

Hey Illuminatus!

Are you shizophrenic or what?
WHAT ATTACK?

Who is going to ATTACK?

And wake up - WE CANT RESEARCH INTINT - ETH CALC IS NOT IN OUR LIST!!!

HOW DO YOU IMAGINE A LAND ASSAULT ON ISOLATED CONTINENT?

WE'D RATHER NEED MCC!!

quote: if Sparta agrees to trade Eth: Cal to Angels, they might be afraid they will complete CDF before them so I don't think it will work.

Who completes and who is afraid?

	12-11-2004 22:45									#137
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The CDF is definitely not worth delaying useful boreholes, IMO.

	12-11-2004 22:50									#138
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Read this and express your opinion:

quote: Greetings! This is Gaian Lord of The Progress calling.. I've not been officially authorised for diplomatical missions, but as a former AI diplomacy advisor and therefore not so inexpierenced in diplomacy I contact Data Angel officials. The reason of this seemingly unexpected move from me is our High Council's lack of activity in this case. Also as a Lord of progress I consider it very reasonable and even crucial to take part in negotiations regarding technology. But let's get closer to the case: quote: Doctrine Mobility, Social Psych, Doctrine Flexibility You might be well aware that Gaian Union (my comrades, Gaian scientists) has already acquired 2 of those 3 techs. As a scientist by heart I highly dislike situations when two scientists research the same without knowing each other's effort, because if they did the research with combined efforts, they'd achieve twice that much. So, it is not been officially approved, but the feeling at the Lordship of Progress is that we must show goodwill and friendship, and must help out our fellow Data Angel scientists. Therefore we make you know that we will be willing to disclose our data on both Dotrine Mobility (as a part of deal signed before) and Social Psych, so that you don't need to trade them from Spartans. But, as the saying goes, "nothing's for free", and we also want to make sure that we receive a fair amount of data in exchange. Therefore we ask you to propose Spartans a deal which sounds: Doctrine Flexibility and Ethical Calculus (Spartans) for Doctrine Loyalty (Data Angels) This is only a draft for a deal, but it could be very profitable to both of our factions. Data Angels will then disclose their newly acquired techs also to Gaian Union and do it immediately (or immediately after embargo has ended) and research Intellectual Integiry or Secrets Of Human Brain and disclose those data as soon as the research has came to an end. The results of such a deal would be: Spartans gain: Doctrine Loyalty Gaian Union gains: Ethical Calculus Dotrine Flexibility either Intellectual Integriy or Secrets Of The Human Brain Data Angels gain Doctrine Loyalty: EDIT! Ethical Calculus Dotrine Flexibility either Intellectual Integriy or Secrets Of The Human Brain Social Psych Dotrine Mobility You can clearly see that this deal is most profitable to Data Angels Lord of Progress binTravkin

AND: I'm sorry for the outburst of anger above, but I have repeated multiple times that from srategical viewpoint Gaian Union is in safety as soon as landbridge has been sunk.
Lord Illuminatus just seems to ignore that and promote miltary techs and projects more and more.

A few boreholes would give us more than a CDF!

	12-11-2004 23:17									#139
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Eth: Cal is not in options to research, hwoever after receiving Doc: Flex it is. BinTravkin, I understand, but think fo it from a longer perspective - in future we WILL face war, and it will involve ground war. 20 or 30 free PD would do us a favour, and Spartans armed with CN and CDF would have be PBusted or gassed. We will face them, sooner or later, as everyone else. From strategical point of view, a few cruisers carrying infantry and rovers (in a 30 years or so) we are vulnerable - also it will take a good deal of time to sink the landbrodge. If we assume we get flex next year, it would a year to produce it, several years to move north and then sink the landbridge.
Also, II is prereq for Planetary Economics and Cyberethics (which lead to Presentine Algorythms).
And the disorder is not schizophrenia but paranoia We can build another SP, let it be CDF.

	12-11-2004 23:20									#140
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BTW, nobody mentioned Yang is now obstinate towards Spartans. Hooray! Just a little more time till vendetta! He is obstinate towards Angels too - if their units meet soon they might find themselves in war against Yang.

	12-11-2004 23:24									#141
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Also, I found out that Angels have Gene Splicing (probably deal they had with Spartans they mentioned).

	12-11-2004 23:25									#142
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quote: Eth: Cal is not in options to research, hwoever after receiving Doc: Flex it is. BinTravkin, I understand, but think fo it from a longer perspective - in future we WILL face war, and it will involve ground war. 20 or 30 free PD would do us a favour, and Spartans armed with CN and CDF would have be PBusted or gassed. We will face them, sooner or later, as everyone else. From strategical point of view, a few cruisers carrying infantry and rovers (in a 30 years or so) we are vulnerable - also it will take a good deal of time to sink the landbrodge. If we assume we get flex next year, it would a year to produce it, several years to move north and then sink the landbridge. Also, II is prereq for Planetary Economics and Cyberethics (which lead to Presentine Algorythms). And the disorder is not schizophrenia but paranoia

Ok, youre paranoid!

1.I repeat:
A few boreholes would give us more than a CDF!

2.30 yrs?
Maybe someone can build army and fleet in 30 yrs, but transporting doesn't take 0 yrs!
It will be 50 yrs at least!

3.Landbridge will be sunk just in time - when Impact start flooding in.

4.

quote: we WILL face war, and it will involve ground war

AFAIR in my PBEMs where I was so far from enemies as we are, I have NEVER expierenced any serious land action - it's always either copters, PBs or Locusts or all together!

5.all those prereqs and techs are good if you have the means to build those SP and een research them. With your research speed we will be last to get those techs even we start right now, the best choice to boost both our research and production is BOREHOLES!
Are you afraid of them?
You're trying to be a pure Gaian?
pure Gaian = dead Gaian!

quote: We will face them, sooner or later, as everyone else.

If you ever knew how I doubt this!

EDIT:
Even Neural Amplifier would give us more - we could have units whose defense rating will only be dependant on lyfecycle and we can surely get high lifecycles for our worms!

	12-11-2004 23:51									#143
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Aghh, I quit. I just hope I won't be forced to tell you I TOLD YOU SO in six months.

	12-11-2004 23:53									#144
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quote: BTW, nobody mentioned Yang is now obstinate towards Spartans. Hooray! Just a little more time till vendetta! He is obstinate towards Angels too - if their units meet soon they might find themselves in war against Yang.

And what did I say?
Nobody listened to me..

	13-11-2004 00:00									#145
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In 30 years:

We should have Air Power.
We should have pop boomed.
The land bridge will be gone (not that the Spartans would use something so dangerous).
Cruiser transports will need to be escorted by AAA ships to stand a chance of not being shot down.


If we want to attack the Spartans, should they be thoroughly entrenched, we won't be able to use conventional warfare. No biggie, as that's not what we're good at. The other options are:

Native life - expensive, but they ignore perimeter defenses and force opponents to diversify into trance defenders
PBs - very expensive, and with nasty repercussions
Probe teams - expensive, but devastatingly effective, if done right.

Who says we need to come into face-to-face conflict with the Spartans ever? It's in our interests not to, and to make it undesirable for the Spartans to. Who cares if they overdefend?

	13-11-2004 00:01									#146
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I listened, but it takes contact for Yang to declare vendetta against them - Spartans may soon withdraw their rover after Yang hypotheticaly requests them to do so, or even disband it. If they manage to avoid his teritory and units, even with seething relations it will take time for Yang to declare war against them. At least Hive-Angel war would be good, since we would appear as protector allies to them (and we could charge them for sinking their land bridge too).

	15-11-2004 23:52									#147
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OK, I'm back... after reading this, I have this to say. I agree with Illum... binTravkin, we are going to face a ground war. We're dealing with Sparta, Hive, etc. Choppers are out. You said the two other tools were PBs and Locusts. Locusts, we would win at. PBs.... That is a long ways off, and it would bring everyone down on them. If someone was to attack us, they wouldn't want all of Planet on us, and they wouldn't want to attack our strong point. That leaves ground units, and lots of them. Probably rovers, to have a retreat, and a speed advatage on our worms.

	16-11-2004 03:10									#148
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The problem with sending rovers at us is that there's not a lot of time left before aircraft and choppers. Choppers can annihilate a force of rovers, mineral for mineral. By measuring population growth, it seems Sparta has been investing considerable resources in population growth. Since they have that industry penalty, I do not believe they could have a large military by now. They don't have a lot of time to build one if they hope to attack us.

	16-11-2004 08:15									#149
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Very good point. I was going on the assumption that we would be attacked... We may not even have to worry about an attack, as you say.

	16-11-2004 15:18									#150
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So is anyone keen on ground battling anymore?

By my measures Sparta has 2 techs left till D:AP
They have Gene Splicing and I don't think they wasted any time on acquiring HEC (from Uni)
If they don't have it, they will have it quite soon because methinks next tech in Yangs priority list IS HEC.