03-01-2003 07:17									#271
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civ is like any other strategy game or war game

whoever has the initiative has the advantage

GS already has the advantage of knowledge, we can't give them the advantage of initiative also

we must press on

if we move back, they will know we are on the ismus (which I do not think they do now), and press to get us locked up there

we cannot let it be known how important it is to us

we must portect the knowledge with our diplomacy and actions

this is a very important time, we need not to lose this game now

Jon Miller

	03-01-2003 07:29									#272
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doubling up our defense tips our hand

we will be showing we are scared and GS will wonder why, guess, and take advantage of us

we can not show our concern (like they might have done about the south)

Jon Miller

	03-01-2003 08:30									#273
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hmm, OK I won't double the defense. I could send the other warrior further south. Maybe follow GS around?

	03-01-2003 08:46									#274
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Jon - I think you misunderstood - I was proposing the second warrior come from The Voice - not one of our first two. It can be there soon enough to double up - and is not needed now for disorder control.

The fact that we have a warrior camped there is proof enough that we have claimed the isthmus. Two will just make sure we don't get pushed off if they get aggressive. It doesn't tip our hand any more or less.

They may not want to declare war this early - but I would just like to be sure.

On the rest of your points jon - I couldn't agree more. Keep the first two warriors headed south. Let's see what there is to see.

	03-01-2003 09:55									#275
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Diss - Did you play with the slider?

	03-01-2003 09:56									#276
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Diss - Did you play with the slider?

Now that's a pretty personal question ....

	03-01-2003 09:57									#277
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yeah, no change. Still 19 turns for research max. So I have it so we get + 4gold/turn

	04-01-2003 12:23									#278
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nothing too exciting this turn. Moved warrior #4 south- Rodney I believe his name is. Moved the worker south to begin more road working.

And I moved warriors #1,#2 south. Not much unocovered since they were on high ground already. But I do have a screen shot if anyone wants to see. I did uncover a fish resource near the wheat in the jungle area.

	04-01-2003 15:05									#279
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Diss - Mail me the screenshot please, I accidently deleted the previous one.

	04-01-2003 19:22									#280
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Yup screen shot please. And od you have one of the north end of the peninsula now that the second city is up. Not that there is that much more to see, but it would be gratifying. Thanks.

	04-01-2003 23:19									#281
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if we dont' get the turn by tonight, I'll send another tonight. no time now.

	05-01-2003 09:00									#282
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quote: Slider : Science - 20% Luxuries - 0% Money - 80% Treasury : 35 gold Income per Turn : +4 gold.

I noticed on our "thread of Everything," our current research effort is only set at 20%....At this rate, we will be lucky to finish Iron Working by Spring...

Why do we have our research set so low? Is it REALLY that necessary to be making 4 gold per turn at this stage of the game? We should be able to raise our research effort and shave-off some turns for our next advancement.

Am I making sense, or am I just out in left-field on this?

	05-01-2003 11:52									#283
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We play with the slider everytime something like city size changes. At this point, turn wise, there is no difference bettween 80% and 20% research. But on 80% money we get 4 gold, comparing to 1 on 20%.

	05-01-2003 12:54									#284
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yes there is no difference between 100% and 20%. 18 turns either way. 17 now.

	05-01-2003 18:16									#285
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2850BCE screenshots mailed to everyone.

	05-01-2003 22:45									#286
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Thanks Eli. Couple of points:

1. Great city site on the east coast where the warrior is right now - in between the fish and the wheat, with a few mountains around. Pump out a worker or two to hack down the jungle and this place has real growth potential.

2. I've been thinking of whether we want to bee-line for the South Estonia now. ie build the third city where I have just mentioned, instead of the chokepoint. A couple of units on the chokepoint should accomplish the same blocking move, and until we get a galley or two, the canal will not be required. Then again, with a road, it will take two extra turns to get south. And we will need to road the chokepoint, which will be a wasted improvement when a city does go in there.

It would apprear that the jungle is thinning out - so there may not be much of a natural barrier holding GS back from expanding north.

Thoughts?

3. I'm surprised about the scarcity of luxuries. Maybe on the next move.

4. Jon, Eli, or Diss - do you know if culturally-linked start was on or off. It may help us to understand, who, if anybody, are GS's neighbours to the south and west. It also might help us to understand how the civs are grouped on isolated continents, if indeed that is the case.

5. I asked a question earlier about making contact with another civ across a straight of water. Anybody have any ideas?

	05-01-2003 23:17									#287
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RE: Research effort: Ok, I understand. Thanks for the clarification.

RE: Third City location. I still say get the 3rd city placed at the choke point ASAP.

Edit: Typo

Last edited by Wittlich on 05-01-2003 at 23:24

	05-01-2003 23:20									#288
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I agree with Witt

as longa s we build settlers as soon as possible, we should have no problem getting another city down below the choke point

Jon Miller

	05-01-2003 23:26									#289
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I agree with Jon and Wittlich.

	05-01-2003 23:45									#290
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yep, if we can I say we build settlers in both cities when they are complete with their jobs. This could give us 2 settler close to each other.

	05-01-2003 23:49									#291
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And after we've settled the choke-point, we have a FIRM claim on it. Until we actually have a city located there, our claim is just words...

	06-01-2003 01:58									#292
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'K. Me too on the city site (and I suggest we break from convention and call it Chokepoint City)

Any thoughts on 4 or 5? Particularly the culturally linked start one.

	07-01-2003 22:54									#293
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Thought we should discuss what the worker does next, as the road to the chokepoint will be finished shortly. Some options are:

1. Move below the chokepoint and start building a road to the fourth city site. (would need to be accompanied by a spearman in case GS gets antsy)

2. City improvements - a mine on the grassland road squares to the west of Miller Town come to mind. (I'm at work without a screen shot handy, so I'm doing this from memory)

3. Connect the luxury.

Could use a second worker shortly - but I feel that settlers should still have priority.

Others options? Thoughts?

	07-01-2003 23:28									#294
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I think we should not build a new worker until we are within 20 turns of a new government (or until a city needs it)

as such the two I see is connect luxury and build road to new city sites

maybe connect luxury first(and perhaps spend a turn to link up with Lux)

Jon Miller

	08-01-2003 00:15									#295
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Yes, I agree that the next project for our worker should be connecting that luxury to our network.

	08-01-2003 04:17									#296
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Jon

We won't be able to link up with Lux until we have a harbor. We can make contact over the straight (which needs a name by the way) and therefore trade techs. But we could not establish a trade linkage. Not sure what you had in mind.

And I would strongly debate the issue of another worker for city improvements. The 10 shield cost and build time is more than rewarded with the extra shield from mined grassland squares, and the extra commerce from roads. And we will probably hit our GA while still in despotism, which means if a tile is not producing at least one commerce and one shield, we will lose the GA 'boost' bonus.

I appreciate that in the very early stages when pop size is up and down due to settler builds, that there is the possibility of some tile improvements going to waste until the pop is back up to use that tile, but we can be selective and timely about the improvements.

I've never played a game without producing some number of workers, usually a minimum of one per city.

Against the AI you are guaranteed of eventually capturing workers - and over time - lots. I don't think that is going to be the case here. Workers will be better protected from the front and/or threatened cities. And in desperation, I suspect a civ will kill/disband workers before they let them change hands. I would.

So, I don't follow your logic here, but as I've said, I've never tried a game without producing them.

	08-01-2003 05:20									#297
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I like to have 2 workers early on. 1 for building roads to city sites. The other for improving select tile. Sometimes I'll have 2 improving select tiles depending on how many I have to do. Eventually I like to have many settlers around. We are industrious so we won't need as many workers.

In any case I would like to get a worker in after we get our next 2 settlers out.

	09-01-2003 02:40									#298
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So, where are we at with the current move? Did we double-up the warriors at the choke-point? Did we decline the tech trade offer? Or did we place a counter-proposal? Did we move, or do we have a spearman on the hill by our capital for the impending contact?

Sorry about all of the questions, I'm just anxious as to what is going on.

	09-01-2003 04:11									#299
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OK, I can get a screen shot if you wish. I just wanted to hurry and get the turn off. I had to sit on it because of a scheduled game. I wasn't sure if Eli played it.

Eli had moved the one warrior south of the chokpoint. He is now 1 square south of the choke point on a hill and also is 1 square north of a GS warrior.

The worker moved onto the chokepoint to build a hill. Our first two warriors moved south to open up new land. Our spearman will move west to make first contact with Lux in one turn.

No change on the tax slider. It doesn't do anything for us to improve our research rate. Still 14 turns to Iron work.

	09-01-2003 05:52									#300
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I presume you mean 'to build a road.' But not sure why. When a city goes there in a few turns, it will essentailly build a road. Unless the intent is to continue a road south, which I won't disagree with, but there is no need to road the future city site. It is a waste of time. If we are continuing the road south, have him move onto the hill next turn and road it. It will be linked up when the city goes in.

And actually, I thought the agreement was to double up on the chokepoint - although this works well as is - and have the worker come back to connect the luxury. I actually think the road south makes more sense. It will be race to get the cities into southern Estonia, so I opt for the raod. Just don't waste time roading the future city site. And the hill which the warrior is on is the next tile to be roaded.

Maybe this is the intent, in which case, please ignore the above.