01-01-2003 15:04									#241
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crap, I think that they are probably the best team

Jon Miller

	01-01-2003 15:11									#242
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have one troop gaurd our gate

have another start follwoing their troop arround

have a third go in the direction they did not come from (There is more likely to be a nonpopped goody hut, while where they came from will have no goody huts

Jon Miller

	01-01-2003 18:46									#243
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quote: have one troop gaurd our gate have another start follwoing their troop arround have a third go in the direction they did not come from (There is more likely to be a nonpopped goody hut, while where they came from will have no goody huts

Agreed.

	01-01-2003 21:18									#244
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Agreed with one and three, most definitely.

But why the 2nd? To try and beat him to any goody huts he may come across, or to see if he leads us back to their civ?

I'm also thinking that when the settler pops and we don't need the fourt warrior to stave off disorder, maybe we should double up the guard on the chokepoint. JUst in case they get uppity early. Which is unlikely, but you never know.

	01-01-2003 21:29									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller crap, I think that they are probably the best team Jon Miller

Was thinking the same thing - Velocyrix, Theseus, Sir Ralph, Shiber, Meshelic, Arrian, and alva to name a few. Looks like the Apolytonian All-Star team. Hah - we'll show them.

But in saying that, Vel has written the most and some of the best strategy stuff on this site. His play style in deity has always involved early warfare. But how will their team style develop in a human vs human game.

Also, they know we are the Persians, and they know we will get immortals when we get iron workinging, and IF we can find iron and get it connected.

I would humbly suggest we be prepared for the possibility of an early rush by them. A city on the chokepoint, with spearmen.

The only drawback to the chokepoint city site is that an ooponent, if he was trying to force their way in, could sit on the hill just to the south.

I would also suggest we try to reach asap, any civ on the other side of GS. We may need allies, and we may need them soon.

AND - I would also suggest that as soon as we have a sufficient force of Immortals (and assuming we survive an early rush if there is one), we attack.

	01-01-2003 22:21									#246
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OK - here's what I'm thinking. And please tell me if you think this makes any sense. And sorry for the long posts - but hey, someone on this team has to do it.

So, in regular civ3, you could generally take two approaches - builder, or conqueror, with maybe different combinations of the two. The AI, in my opinion, only ever takes the builder route. Yes - it wages war every now and then, but not with the strategic purpose of taking over the world. Why? Because as we all know, the AI does not wage war very well. It relies on REXing, building, and trading.

In that style of game - culture building is key. First to protect your own cities, and second to try and take over their's via cultural takeover. And yes - with temples and cathedrals comes the happiness aspect.

Now, when facing human civs, everyone is going to be able to wage war reasonably well - at least better than the AI could. So - two possible outcomes -

1. with everyone knowing that, a sort of detente settles in and the game clearly becomes a building and culture race.

2. culture becomes insignificant, as civs wil resort to warfare long before they ever face the chance of losing territory to a culture flip. But that takes us back to 1. where your opponent is no longer some mindless AI who can't plan decent counter attacks, or cut off road approaches, and the like.

So - I suspect warfare, as usual, will be key - but will likely be restricted to two major situations - (i) alliances and (ii) the period when one civ has a technical and therefore military superiority over another.

I bring all this up, because I'm trying to deduce what GS will do in the early days. If they have come to similar conclusions about the technical superiority idea - well - that is the basis for me suggesting:

1. they may come at us early - before we have Immortals - knowing that....

2. when we do have Immortals, we may want to make the best of it. Will be a tough fight. On offence we will clearly be able to take out anything they will have to defend - (max of 2 on defence). But they will have chariots which will try and cut down the Immortals before they get a chance to attack. We will need spearmen to absorb the damage.

The other option is to REX like mad south of the chokepoint, claim as much of the territory as we can - and use the Immortals as our insurance for being able to settle in safely.

Anyways - that's what I was thinking. Reactions?

	01-01-2003 23:55									#247
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound The other option is to REX like mad south of the chokepoint, claim as much of the territory as we can - and use the Immortals as our insurance for being able to settle in safely.

This is the option that I would prefer...but first we need a city at the chokepoint with at least two defending units....

	01-01-2003 23:57									#248
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I would agree with that!

	02-01-2003 00:30									#249
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound But why the 2nd? To try and beat him to any goody huts he may come across, or to see if he leads us back to their civ?

What's your thinking behind this? Eli? Jon?

	02-01-2003 00:37									#250
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well we only have 2 warriors exploring the southern continent right now. The third is locked up on the isthmus right now. Although he did mention using the fourth warrior we have on garrison right now.

I think he meant to use the second warrior to explore as well as the first. And not have him follow GS around.

I think the point is moot anyways. I'm afraid we may not find more than 1 goody hut left.

I moved the warrior who made contact to the east. The next person to play should move him SE or something to get on the mountain for a better view. Since we met GS from the south I was hoping there might be something to the east.

	02-01-2003 00:40									#251
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound What's your thinking behind this? Eli? Jon?

well for one thing, I like to have an eye on all enemies (I want to know what they are up to)

Jon Miller

	02-01-2003 00:56									#252
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But he has no settler attached. And he is not going further than the chokepoint. What would we gain?

I would rather use our first two warriors to push south and discover new territory. In particular, send Willy, who is farthest south, down the east coast - I am assuming that the GS warrior came up the west coast, so we would have a better chance of hitting unopened goody huts down the other side. They may have a second warrior coming up that way anyways, so the quicker Willy gets there, the better.

And oops - just read Dissident's post. looks like we are thinking along the same lines.

Last edited by Beta on 02-01-2003 at 03:22

	02-01-2003 03:20									#253
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Speaking of our early contact with GS, and what they might or might not do, check out this thread - the meat of it coming from Theseus and Velocyrix.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=58720

"Know thy enemy."

	02-01-2003 08:38									#254
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Turn played. 3000 BC

I renamed the third warrior Thadeus. He is now fortified in the forest on the chokepoint.

I have moved the other settler into position 3A to build a city next turn.

The first warrior moved east onto the mountain to survey the terrain. He has spotted another Gathering Storm warrior moving north. And no goody huts were spotted.

Unfortunately the fact there are 2 gathering storm warriors moving north does not lead me to believe we will find any more goody huts on this continent. This continent is just not that big.

Next turn we can build the city on 3A. I propose that the next city be on the chokepoint. And after that we will have to do a land grab on the southern part of the continent. We can use warriors as escorts.

	02-01-2003 10:17									#255
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Thanks for the screenshot Diss. Well - the two warrior thing certainly sucks - but not unexpected I guess. And I agree - it probably means no more goody huts - but we should continue to explore south. And fortify the guy on the chokepoint next turn.

And what about the idea of bringing the other warrior down to the chokepoint as well and doubling up?

Also suggest the chokepoint city's first build is walls.

	02-01-2003 12:09									#256
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the one warrior is already fortified on the chokepoint. I haven't messed with the city much. In fact we are going to have to mess with the tax slider again. I checked the tax slider last turn, but not this turn. Sorry.

In any case I think the reason we are keeping the warrior in the city is because it might riot at size 3. I still say we can go to size 4 without rioting, but I'm not completely sure.

	02-01-2003 14:18									#257
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can someone sim this?

it is important

Jon Miller
no access to civ 3 for 4 more days

	02-01-2003 16:50									#258
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On Regent difficulty level the two first citizens are content. So for size 3 we need a police unit.

	02-01-2003 20:18									#259
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Yes - but after having produced the settler, the city drops back to pop 1. By the time it is back up to 3 we will have produced a spearman, if that is our next build choice.

	02-01-2003 20:53									#260
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Diss or Eli - whoever plays the turn.

The City's name is Miller Town, unless jon wants another variation on his name.

The best tile for the first citizen would appear to be #8, the tile to the northwest - the plains square with the road on it.

We are going to need another worker soon. Some of these tiles should be getting improved.

	02-01-2003 21:22									#261
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quote: Yes - but after having produced the settler, the city drops back to pop 1. By the time it is back up to 3 we will have produced a spearman, if that is our next build choice.

Which raises a question...
What are we building now in The Voice?

	02-01-2003 21:41									#262
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My suggestion was spearman. The other choices would be barracks or temple. It would be nice to see what the build times for these would be realtive to pop grwoth.

I would suggest the priority is to produce another settler asap. And that is why I suggested spearman - he could keep order in The Voice when it hits pop 3 and until the next settler is produced.

Or we can leave the warrior there and concentrate on temple/barracks and then settler.

I just don't trust GS not to use their two settlers to try and smack through the chokepoint early.

aha! And maybe that is why it would be a good thing to shadow the first GS warrior.

Nope - I say we double up warriors on the chokepoint - and produce a spearman next. Then start building on a settler. If the two GS warriors have wandered away by then - we can swap one of the chokepoint warriors for the spearman, who will become that city's garrison.

	02-01-2003 22:37									#263
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound Nope - I say we double up warriors on the chokepoint - and produce a spearman next. Then start building on a settler. If the two GS warriors have wandered away by then - we can swap one of the chokepoint warriors for the spearman, who will become that city's garrison.

I totally concur with Beta on this.

	02-01-2003 23:07									#264
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OK I think that is the general consensus. The next turn whoever plays the turn, we'll come up with a build times list for you all.

	03-01-2003 02:00									#265
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OK turn played. I have a screen shot if anyone wants it. A little bit more land opened up in the south. And still 2 GS warriors in our sights.

I built Miller town. I hope that was the correct name. It seems to be a fine berg. It is now utilizing the game square next to The Voice. This is easily the best square. We don't have a road on it, but oh well.

The voice is now utilizing the game square with the road on it. The other major option we can use is the cows. I have build/growth times for both coming up.

The tax slider is still at 20% science. Tweaking did not change our reseach rate at all. So we have the best tax rate available. Iron Working in 19 turns. +4 gold per turn now.

The voice: working game square w/ road. Currently building spearman. Growth in 8 turns. Other build times as follows: spearman 6, temple 19, barracks 13, worker 3, settler 9, walls 6, pyramids 133

If the voice were to work the cows square growth woudl be in 5 turns. build times: settler 14, worker 4, spearman9, temple 29, barracks 19, walls 9, pryamids 199

Millter town working the unroaded game square currently building spearman. Growth in 10 turns. Build times: spearman 7, settler 10, worker 4, barracks 14, temple 20, walls 7, pyramids 134

	03-01-2003 02:58									#266
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I say leave The Voice as is. Build spearman then another settler.

Now for Miller Town .. spearman, then let's see??

	03-01-2003 04:23									#267
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I'm all for completing the spearman in both towns, then having both start settlers if they can grow to 3 in time. Or we can have Miller town build a worker to connect the luxery, build a road on the game, and start trying to get some irrigation up to the cows (everything else can be mined pretty much)

	03-01-2003 04:45									#268
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Yah - I was thinking about how to get a worker squeezed into the queues. As you have pointed out, we definitely could use one.


That and a one tile expansion bridge .....

	03-01-2003 05:12									#269
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One other thought. It might be useful to park a warrior on the western most tip of our landmass - up on the peninsula. I'm thinking - but I'm not sure here - that if and when another civ hits the end of the landmass we can see - we will be able to make contact. Is that do-able? I've never encountered this kind of situation in any game I have played.

We could use one of the chokepoint warriors when the spearmen are ready.

Then again - maybe some civ has alreadty come and gone from there and it would be a waste of an early warrior. And perhaps you can't make contact across sea/coastal squares without galleys. I'm not sure.

	03-01-2003 07:11									#270
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we don't want to be pressed into defense

only one troop on the ismus for now

if we double up our defense, than GS will have the exploration advantage

Jon Miller