03-09-2003 08:15									#241
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither We need at least one friend. CFC is ideal for it. We are cooperating with them, to the limits of their abilities. By cooperating now we may show them that we can cooperate later.

We're not really cooperating, we're buying them off.

Like I said elsewhere, true alliances that truly cooperate are formed when both teams have a common goal and are working together towards it. Right now, the only thing that we and CFC have in common is our desire to keep as much Gold in each or pockets as possible.

Our "friendship" with them needs to go beyond the bargaining table. I suggest opening talks to coordinate our battle plans versus GCA.


Dominae

	03-09-2003 08:22									#242
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Ok, another little analogy to makes things a bit more clear on why we went for 240g:

For myself, I understood your explanation the first time.

If this really the way things are, and will be on the world stage, I have no problem with that. Let's just make sure we're not offering the lowest prices just because we're always afraid we'll get undercut!

In fact, if this is going to be way of it (techs going for 1/3 Beaker cost or less in Gold), I highly recommend we stop research entirely once we meet all the foreign civs. There is simply not point in wasting Commerce researching things that you're going to give away without profit. (We could, of course, enter into a tech alliance which would force us to research, but I'm just considering the current "fully free" market that we seem to be in right now.)


Dominae

	03-09-2003 08:32									#243
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae We're not really cooperating, we're buying them off. Like I said elsewhere, true alliances that truly cooperate are formed when both teams have a common goal and are working together towards it. Right now, the only thing that we and CFC have in common is our desire to keep as much Gold in each or pockets as possible. Our "friendship" with them needs to go beyond the bargaining table. I suggest opening talks to coordinate our battle plans versus GCA. Dominae

We're buying them off? Who is it that has been at war with GCA, having their asses handed to them on a regular basis for the last 30 or so turns?

Who is it that has refused to make peace with GCA when they could have for very easy terms so that it would be to Poly's benefit when Poly attacks?

Yet all this time, all CFC has ever heard from Poly was 'just a little while yet, and then we'll be ready.'

Well, CFC doesn't really believe us anymore. Why should they? All they see is a missile aimed at their heart in the shape of a GCA sword army heading for their iron, and still Poly has not moved.

Yes. We are being nice to CFC in this deal. They have earned our trust by going out of the way for us and putting their necks on the line to defeat a common enemy. As for us? We haven't been bothered to inform that common enemy that we are on the way yet. We have done almost nothing to earn that trust from CFC back.

Well, I beleive it is about high time we did earn that trust back, because I am confident of one thing. Without them helping us and us helping them, neither of us will stand a chance in Hades of winning this game.

This deal is a step along the road to that trust.

	03-09-2003 08:34									#244
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae For myself, I understood your explanation the first time. If this really the way things are, and will be on the world stage, I have no problem with that. Let's just make sure we're not offering the lowest prices just because we're always afraid we'll get undercut! In fact, if this is going to be way of it (techs going for 1/3 Beaker cost or less in Gold), I highly recommend we stop research entirely once we meet all the foreign civs. There is simply not point in wasting Commerce researching things that you're going to give away without profit. (We could, of course, enter into a tech alliance which would force us to research, but I'm just considering the current "fully free" market that we seem to be in right now.) Dominae

You can only get what the buyer can pay.

Blood does not come from stones.

	03-09-2003 08:47									#245
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Well, I beleive it is about high time we did earn that trust back, because I am confident of one thing. Without them helping us and us helping them, neither of us will stand a chance in Hades of winning this game. This deal is a step along the road to that trust.

Let's agree to disagree on the tech deal.

What's wrong with my proposal about trying other forms of "trust building" in addition to simple showering of gifts?


Dominae

	03-09-2003 08:50									#246
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You can only get what the buyer can pay. Blood does not come from stones.

I honestly have no idea how that is a response to what I discussed in my post.

I'm suggesting we let other civs do our research for us. Are they all in on this "let the other guy do research and sell it to us for dirt cheap" scam? If so, there's not going to be much research going on, unless we're the suckers who do it. If not, we stand to make great profits by buying techs at a fraction of what they cost.

It goes against everything Civ3 stands for, by hey, we're in this to win, right?


Dominae

	03-09-2003 08:56									#247
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once we get into tech trades with the other continent then we'll start acting as equals and seeking profit as much as we can.

The situation with CFC right now is different for the reasons that nye has made quite clear.

Another analogy now that I'm in the mood for them: do you know why people in San Diego and El Paso cross the border to Mexico to buy medicine? Because it's cheaper. Some old people even move here for that. Why is it cheaper? Because medicines, like techs, are a necessity. Since most Mexicans can't afford U.S. prices on medicine, the big pharmaceuticals drop prices over here or else they wouldn't get any profits since no-one could afford to buy them.

That's not too much different than what we're doing with CFC. Market economics works beautifuly in Civ3 too

(and now you all know where to go to get cheap Viagra )

	03-09-2003 09:19									#248
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Well, uhmmm... I had a hard time responding to this...

Like I said elsewhere, true alliances that truly cooperate are formed when both teams have a common goal and are working together towards it. Right now, the only thing that we and CFC have in common is our desire to keep as much Gold in each or pockets as possible.

Our "friendship" with them needs to go beyond the bargaining table. I suggest opening talks to coordinate our battle plans versus GCA.

because it's pretty close to ridiculous. No, strike that. It is ridiculous.

To begin with, we have had a shared goal with CFC for the past 20, 30, or more turns. The elimination of GCA. I'd say that goes a bit beyond 'desire to keep as much Gold in each or pockets as possible'.

Furthermore, some of us are waking up to the fact that life beyond GCA will be a 2 power other continent, with a jungle stunted us, and a war stunted CFC over here. We have made some overtures to CFC about what we might do once we get past GCA.

Tech cooperation, and joint raiding parties have been mentioned, among other things.

The bottom line is that this deal is good for us because we get gold that we need. It is not so great for CFC, because they get a govt they can't use, and they might, just might, get a tech they can use... so long as we can get Eng from GWT.

Is it a perfect deal? No. There are some things about it that are not ready yet...

We need to include the fact that we get Monotheism as part of it.

The bit about military plans needs to be cut. We are not quite there yet where I want Trip reporting to CFC about the army.

However, the basic fact remains that we need gold to assure victory against GCA. CFC has some of that gold. By cutting a beneficial deal with CFC now, we shore up an ally who is being sorely tested. My hope is that they will still be an ally when we show them some more concrete support. That is why I think this is a good deal on the whole, with some minor adjustments not dealing with gold.

	03-09-2003 09:26									#249
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither We are playing the hand we have been dealt, and that is... We are crawling and scratching our way out of a jungle. The fact we've made it this far in this shape relative to the rest of the world is somewhat of a surprise to me. We are definitely not going to ever, in a million years, win this game by ourselves. We need at least one friend. CFC is ideal for it. We are cooperating with them, to the limits of their abilities. By cooperating now we may show them that we can cooperate later. Or, do you and F-P have a plan for dealing with a continent with 2 civs larger than us, each of whose culture dwarfs us, and to do that by ourselves? IMO, cooperation for a very long time with CFC is our best hope to come out on top in this game. We need for them to see that as well.

Has anyone confirmed what the politics is on the other continent ?
There are two major players, but we dont know if they are in an alliance or just havent got around to beating on each other yet.
It is quite possible that we can align with Webring, and help them kill the other team.
We each have our own continent.

There are so many unknowns to lock in a long term alliance so soon.

I am not against the deal, just that we are being a little too quick to change our original goal of continent domination.

{edit} - Reply is not needed. Togas post below is fine.
Buying friendship is OK .. locking in a long term alliance before we know the global politics is my worry.
There just may be better partners out there.

	03-09-2003 09:29									#250
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There comes a point where you just have to agree to disagree. I trust that all of us in the FAM department have earned enough respect over the course of this game to end this pointless argument. You may disagree, but it's water under the bridge at this point, the sale has already been made.

Regarding CFC & friendship. My biggest concern right now is that we now have another player in the game. We will soon have more. When it was just CFC, Poly, and GCA we had the edge, we were the central power that both sides sought to side with or keep neutral. We were the master traders, deal makers, and planners. We now have the Germans to contend with. And soon CFC and even GCA (unless we kill them really fast, which doesn't seem likely) will have them as an additional "player" in this game.

Add another nation, alliances change. People find new advantages, angles, avenues. Add a few more players and we have the potential for some serious trouble and wrench-throwing. Nations do not act logically, and they do not always pursue their best interests. The only thing you can predict is that they will surprise you.

CFC has a chance now to wander away from their needed bond to Poly to look for a new savior, a team to give them an edge over Poly, a way to gain power and respect. CFC's "loyalty" will diminish unless we change our tactics and our style and present to them a team that they can put some faith in. A team that presents itself as a good long-term ally. A team that offers them a partnership, an avenue to power, and a fair share in the spoils.

Ultimately, there is NO WAY these bungling idiots are getting half of GCA. At most, I'd be content with giving them the land west of the chokepoints, but that may not even be necessary. Unless CFC somehow becomes less of an obvious threat to our hedgemony, they WILL have to be destroyed in the future. But until that time we most certainly want them close to us to keep them from straying or to at least watch their moves a lot easier.

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

--Togas

	03-09-2003 10:18									#251
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BTW, the long-term situation with CFC deserves some attention as a separte topic, I have started a thread on it with some thoughs and would be glad if some of you could take a look:

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=96110

	04-09-2003 18:37									#252
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I have been catching up with so many threads my thoughts are in a whiel, so apologies if this is seen elsewhere in my recent posts.

Keeping CFC in the war helps us keep GCA's troops away from us for at least a short time. This means we gain the terrain advantage and can perhaps overrun the old CDG lands before they can get anyone back from CFC. Keeping CFC with us as a trading partner means we can jointly dictate trades with the other continent to our mutual benefit. Having CFC's forces working with us means our combined strenght is more than the "Average" vs GCA that Apolyton individually posts at the moment. Ensuring we coordinate research means we benefit more than if we were working at counter-objectives. Goodwill to CFC now may lead us to their votes in the future UN (admittedly unlikely).

These are all excellent reasons (well, maybe not so much the last one) why CFC should feel more like our friend. One way we can do this is by conceding a little to them in negotiations. If you feel that CFC with Republic threatens us, I invite you to look at the GNP figures that show CFC 4 times below us at present. A Republic would half that ratio, perhaps. And this is before our GA. I also ask you remember that CFC can't do sh*t with a Republic now due to what must be slightly concerning them more than a good peacetime government - the continuing invasion of GCA forces.
As to coordination troop movements a la SMAC, I think this will be an excellent idea, but not until we are making inroads into GCA and can afford such luxuries.

Some women I know have boyfriends that they complain about a lot. The reason they stay with these morons is that, for how poorly they are treated at times (I am not talking about anything as severe as abuse, just some stupidity and arrogance), they are sometimes treated very well indeed. For however much they may complain about us, let's have CFC remember how things could be a lot worse without us if we didn't give them that good lovin' every now and again.

	05-09-2003 04:23									#253
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That is an image I just didn't need, MrWIA!!

	05-09-2003 06:59									#254
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Amazing what a guy with verbal abilities can do with a girl in front of him...

	05-09-2003 09:47									#255
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Final version of the deal

quote: Apolyton - Fanatikou Technology/Gold trade Agreement In order to speed up preparations for our joint campaign against our common enemy, GCA, as well as ensure convergence in Apolyton and Fanatikou's technological position and world relations, our two teams hereby agree on the following trade agreement: Apolyton agrees to trade the following to Fanatikou: - The technologies of Republic and Engineering (as soon as aquired from GWT) Fanatikou agrees to trade the following to Apolyton: - 180g given immediately after receiving Apolyton's offer - 60g given 5 turns later - The technology of Monotheism once researched Furthermore: - Fanatikou shall by no means agree to any technology trade or gifting to GCA. - Fanatikou agrees to a 10 turn moratorium before agreeing on any type of trade with GWT - Apolyton agrees to ensure the survival of CFC by gifting a city should CFC find itself on the verge of defeat. - Apolyton agrees to share information regarding war buildup and preliminations. We await your prompt reply on this matter. May skill and luck reward you in your war efforts until the time both our nations may move forward together in victory. -Master Zen Deputy Foreign Affairs Minister of Apolyton

Well, contact with GWT is redundant now that they'll be heading in CFC's direction....

	05-09-2003 10:03									#256
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Apolyton agrees to ensure the survival of CFC by gifting a city should CFC find itself on the verge of defeat.

Could you explain precisely what this clause entails? Thanks.


Dominae

	05-09-2003 10:29									#257
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Octavian was worried that that GCA was going to wipe them out completely so he wanted to see if we'd be willing to gift them a city to ensure their survival should all of their other cities fall.

	05-09-2003 10:36									#258
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Why, so we can smear them later? So they can finish a tech they're researching? It's not as though we'd give them a great town to stage some amazing comeback from. Do they just want to outlast Firaxis and Grenny?

	05-09-2003 10:40									#259
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They might cling to the hope we'd eventually give them their old land back...

har har har

	05-09-2003 10:51									#260
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Or not harr harr harr.

Unless we want to be alone facing two larger civs than us. Maybe we could side with one of them over the other, maybe we couldn't. Maybe the two of them would decide to slaughter the rest of the world, and then deal with each other...

We don't know what is going to happen in 50 or 100 or 150 turns. Offering CFC the life line of avoiding extinction to keep them in the fight now makes a lot of sense. Keeping them in the game as research partners later might make a heck of a lot of sense.

	05-09-2003 11:32									#261
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3 or even 4 cores is better than 2. I have the feeling that CFC would jump on board with us full throttle to help Poly win if things keep going the way they are.

	05-09-2003 11:40									#262
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree 3 or even 4 cores is better than 2. I have the feeling that CFC would jump on board with us full throttle to help Poly win if things keep going the way they are.

And like Togas has been trying to drum into us, a little bit of honey extended now might help us greatly in the long run if we can assuage CFC's fears that we are setting them up for extinction soon after GCA (which of course could still happen ).

	13-09-2003 06:11									#263
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Our NAP with CFC is nearly over! My notes indicate that it ends after turn 117 and I'm digging around to find the official copy to verify.

CFC will sign another NAP, however, we may want to take this time to create a more formal alliance with CFC in lieu of our pending war.

Please post your thoughts and suggestions on this idea.

--Togas

	13-09-2003 06:52									#264
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While we tackle the other neighbours, we will clearly want to be on good terms with these ones. And - as was discussed in the earlier trade deal with CFC, I think there is merit to being generous.

As to the length of time - well...Trip - any idea how long we figure it will be before the Joneses are gone, and we will be facing a decision on CFC? Even then - hostility is not the necessary outcome. So maybe a longer NAP would fit both their needs and ours.

	16-09-2003 11:19									#265
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I had a brief chat with OctX and MasterZen in the IDSGFAMTALKs channel about the options ... extend NAP or sign a more forumal alliance.

OctX indicated his interest in a more formal alliance but ultimately stated that his team prefered that we just extend the old NAP.

We informally agreed to extend the old NAP. He indicated he would put up the formal poll (which would take 3-4 days) and then send us the same NAP as last time, just with different dates.

--Togas

	19-09-2003 19:23									#266
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Extend NAP sounds best - we have enough to concern ourselves with. Once the war is properly underway we will be in a better position to figure out what stance to take with CFC.

	23-10-2003 03:12									#267
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*BIG bump*

Octavian X is sitting in our chat room wishing to discuss future border arangements after peace. I told him that with Togas' computer problems, it's probably best he contacted MZ.

Regarding negotiations with CFC, however, I think we need to have a discussion on how to approach this...

	23-10-2003 03:53									#268
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What chatroom?

	23-10-2003 04:09									#269
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#ISDGFAMTALKS

It's our official "All teams Embassy" channel. There's not password set on it, any team can come on by.

	23-10-2003 23:20									#270
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We need to be careful with this next step.

We're on the verge of roping CFC into a long term alliance. They've been freely cooperating with us, have lowered their guard, and the relationship seems to be moving along nicely. They could push it by asking for too much in this next negotiation, and if they do we need to handle it with kidgloves, not get insulted or angry or threatening. We need to either politely stall on such requests, grant them tentatively (with conditions, such as "you will need to conquer those cities yourself"), or come up with a rational reason for denying the request that they can understand and not FEEL angry about.

CFC has been very helpful in our war against GCA. It is my opinion that we should keep them around to help us in the future. My opinion will change if CFC becomes agressive or jealous of us, which would make them dangerous. We need to try to keep that from happening.

--Togas