11-11-2003 23:34									#301
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Who is in charge of CFC is absolutely critical to our future relations and our long term plans. OctavianX has been the ideal leader, from our point of view, as he's available, approachable, reasonable, and we've taken a lot of time to cultivate a good friendship with him. There is trust build up between us that I believe we can build off of to make a healthy alliance with CFC.

Replace him with someone like Goonie and all bets are off.

Goonie has entitlement issues, and his obvious feeling that CFC has gotten the short end of the stick will motivate him to "equalize" things, by using Riders if possible. He also has been unable to listen to reason, doesn't seem to relate well or understand his peers, and seem to believe he represents the majority in his extremely uncalled for and unofficial PM to us.

I'll be straight forward, if Goonie (or someone like him) takes over CFC, we attack them before they attack us. It's not even a question in my mind. I do not believe that a long term alliance with Goonie is possible or profitable.

--Togas

	11-11-2003 23:39									#302
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One more note, I think our people handled Goonie VERY well in chat.

If would have been so easy to say to him, "Are you crazy? You're not even official, go away!" but that would have served only to motivate him to GET official and fight us even more for his absurd split idea.

Right now he probably thinks we're considering it. Good. We want him content and quiet. We want his ideas to die in silence and procrastination. We may want to hint to others on his team that we are slightly put-off by his approach and maybe ask some questions (in private chats with others on CFC) about who's official so they take care of him in-house.

But overall, good handling of what could have been a difficult situation.

--Togas

	12-11-2003 00:10									#303
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Just what we need, a war with CFC while we are trying to REX like bunnies...

E_T

	12-11-2003 01:11									#304
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quote: Originally posted by Togas But overall, good handling of what could have been a difficult situation. --Togas

oh trust me, the temptation was there....

	12-11-2003 03:27									#305
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Goonie has a twisted idea of how to conduct diplomacy, if he thinks that by using a combination of pleading and targeting our compassion and generosity, with over-emphasis self worthiness remarks (as in: "we've fought the evil GCA so hard") he will get anywhere...

CFC is probably going through some re-organization phase, with the election and Goonie's return. Like Togas mentioned, now would be a time to slow down (to a a crawl), or stop further progress in the negotiations with CFC- we can't seriously discuss things with them, not with two different offers sitting on the table and an unclear idea of the future leadership of CFC.

What we should do our best at preventing a diplomatic crisis as a result of their internal issues (in the prospect of a reasonable "UnGoonish" leadership emerging). Goonie wrecking havoc and all sorts of that stuff at the court of CFC is their business, but when he rushes out and disrupts their relations with Apolyton with his out of the way demeanor and contradictory proposal, it is up to us to express our discontent to CFC's FAM (=OctX, at the moment).
In other words: we deal with CFC in light of this new development, they hopefully get the idea and put Goonie back into line...

I also have to congratulate our representatives at the chat that handled a somewhat rough situation and once again earned my appreciation to their diplomatic abilities, well done!

Oh, and one more thing- was it just me, or did anyone else thought Goonie did a really poorly acted attempt to induce melodrama to his message, especially in the way he depicted our "Evil" enemy and CFC valiant stand against them? I found the whole thing pretty sleazy...

	12-11-2003 03:44									#306
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quote: Originally posted by zeit Oh, and one more thing- was it just me, or did anyone else thought Goonie did a really poorly acted attempt to induce melodrama to his message, especially in the way he depicted our "Evil" enemy and CFC valiant stand against them? I found the whole thing pretty sleazy...

Didn't CFC (and CDG) start the war in the first place? kinda hard to call the team you were trying to gangbang evil.

	12-11-2003 04:32									#307
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"Goonie wrecking havoc and all sorts of that stuff at the court of CFC is their business"-Zeit

Can you tell me more about that?

	12-11-2003 04:54									#308
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quote: [16:44] [E_T] What issue? [16:46] [Bootstoots] involving disclosure of conclusions from city investigations I believe...don't worry about it though

I'd like to know what bootstoots is referring to here. Did we forget to live up to an aspect of an agreement? Or perhaps just not do so up to their expectations?

I ask because if we provide them with what they expected, or maybe just apologize (if the info is too late to be useful now), we could sway any doubters in the CFC camp towards a strong alliance and further minimize the likes of Goonie.

	12-11-2003 05:12									#309
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An amateur attempt at the famous Truth-O-meter:

quote: Peoples of Apolyton, The people of Fanatikou would like to extend our deepest and most heartfelt gratitude towards Apolyton and its wonderous and ever tactful citizens. It is clear that our nations have acheived alot with each others aid, and we would like for this to continue in the future. Toghther and only through combined efforts were we able to eliminate the Alliance threat. We each were dependant on the other for this. If GCA had not been forced to fight a two front war, we would never have been able to vanquish them. With that said, we are coming to a critical time in our two nations history. So far, we have been good friends uniting against a common foe. Now however it looks as if this foe may not be here much longer. Fanatikou has spent more than 1000 years fighthing The Gamecatcher threat, and was figthing well before our gracious Apolytonian friends came to our rescue. Please consider us to be the British in WWII. The British fought from the beginning, and did their best to fight the nazis. The British however could not finish the war alone. Just as Fanatikou could not remove the Gamecathcer tyranny alone. The British needed help, as did we. Consider yourselfs the Americans. The Americans aided in the victory over the British, just as Apolyton aided Fanatikou to rid the world of the Alliance scum, that lay rotting on our continent. Fanatikou suffered greatly in this war, and if Fanatikou were to take BOP and draw the border there, she will have gained nothing after a 1000 year struggle. That is why we come to you today. We would like to propose to you a fair and equitable offer regarding future borders. Before I outline the proposal, I would like to reming the great citizens of Apolyton how much we have aided them. We provide very timely and informative screenies of GCA cities, we fought GCA alone for many years so that Apolyton could muster its forces, we make very important technological deals with Apolyton that greatly benefit both nations. The most important point however is that for the rest of the game, we are the only people you have to rely on. We have to be here for each other to defend our wonderous continent against invasion etc... That is why we need to have a fair border for the future. Apolyton has already gained lots of territory in this war, but Fanatikou unfortunately has gained none, so please consider this proposal from your hearts, and remember we are your best - and last - friends on this continent. The majority of the Fanatikesen people will be very sad if our glorious borders end at BOP. We have all fought for a long time, and would like to have at least a little souvenir of GCA mainland. What we propose is that Fanatikou gets BOP and that we draw a line straight east that gives Apolyton everything to the north including Catchopolis and gives Fanatikou the two small cities to the south. On another note. Regarding the rumours you heard about internal conflict. We always want to share our intelligence with you, the only problem the citizens had with Octavians actions are that he informed Apolyton of the information without seeking consent from the people as specified by the Fanatikesen constitution. Goonie

I'm sure GhengisFarb could do much better, but I had to try.

	12-11-2003 06:18									#310
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Good try though.

	12-11-2003 11:02									#311
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Didn't CFC (and CDG) start the war in the first place? kinda hard to call the team you were trying to gangbang evil.

No actually. The whole shiteroo started when Lucky vaporised a CFC city, with some arrogant attitude while doing it I might add.

It actually happened during a chat. GCA, CFC and we were there to discuss the impasse of the CFC city near the iron on the GCA side of the mountains just west of BoP.

The discussion was not making progress. In the end Lucky announced that the CFC city was a ruins and the save was being passed, have a nice day.

That very chat is where I knew that we would have no future of peace with GCA.

	12-11-2003 11:09									#312
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quote: Please consider us to be the British in WWII. The British fought from the beginning, and did their best to fight the nazis. The British however could not finish the war alone. Just as Fanatikou could not remove the Gamecathcer tyranny alone. The British needed help, as did we. Consider yourselfs the Americans. The Americans aided in the victory over the British, just as Apolyton aided Fanatikou to rid the world of the Alliance scum, that lay rotting on our continent. Fanatikou suffered greatly in this war, and if Fanatikou were to take BOP and draw the border there, she will have gained nothing after a 1000 year struggle. That is why we come to you today. We would like to propose to you a fair and equitable offer regarding future borders.

And, like the Americans after WWII, we should explain to the British that no, they don't get the Suez Canal and they're just going to have to live with that.

	12-11-2003 13:16									#313
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Alright, finally gotten around to reading the famous Goonie chats. They are... amusing, to say the least.

I do not think there is much need to comment. While I was a vocal proponent of tight relations with and quite some generosity towards CFC, this is simply ridiculous to offending. Accepting their proposal is out of question, that's for sure.

Can't say anything what would not be said by posters before me.

	12-11-2003 21:03									#314
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The discussion was not making progress. In the end Lucky announced that the CFC city was a ruins and the save was being passed, have a nice day. That very chat is where I knew that we would have no future of peace with GCA.

Actually it was Goonie who went crazy in the end and blew all hopes of peace (that chat was when we nicked him "Goonie the loonie"). Lucky had an arrogant attitude from the start, we had almost reached a point of compromise and then Goonie got ticked and it all went to hell.

That WW2 example he put is also bull. This was not our war. We were not allied to CFC from the start and hence have no moral debt at overcompensating them since we did all we could to avoid the war in the first place.

	12-11-2003 22:15									#315
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Maybe I should reset and repost my poll about CFC and war....

::whistle::

Hehe!

In all seriousness, in light of this...uh..nutcase's agitating, I think our need to ensure, rather than assume, we are going to get BoP is getting a bit more important.

If we're going to be "in bed" with CFC, they're just going to have to accept that we're on top. When -I genuinely do not believe if - Goonie or someone likes him finally gets the Hawks to beat out the Doves over there, we want to be ready and able to handle the situation.

	12-11-2003 23:00									#316
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon When -I genuinely do not believe if - Goonie or someone likes him finally gets the Hawks to beat out the Doves over there, we want to be ready and able to handle the situation.

Reminds me of the Senate under Republic in Civ/Civ2

	12-11-2003 23:24									#317
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon If we're going to be "in bed" with CFC, they're just going to have to accept that we're on top.

that was disturbingly graphic...


btw, the election is between OctX, bootstoots, and some other guy who I don't recall. Bootstoots is very much like Octavian, we should have no problem if he becomes prez.

	13-11-2003 00:30									#318
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Gingerbreadman was the other....BTW, Oct said that the election was a three way tie at this point.

GO Oct!

	13-11-2003 02:24									#319
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Trying to catch up and just read the "goonie chats", hilarious!

	13-11-2003 02:45									#320
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Besides the results of the election, which will obviously influence our future relation with CFC, we should also consider the new shape of their "government". If voices like Goonie's (and others, probably) gain greater influence in their decisions in the aftermath of the election and the dawn of the post-GCA period, it will undoubtly work against our interests in having CFC a reliable and easy to work with trading partner (imagine the toils of negotatiating science deals and the like with Goonie, for example). We can't really say for sure Goonie's more likely to call for an attack against us, but working out a partnership between us has more chances to succeed if OctX keeps his office, maintains his influence...

Further development should be interesting- we need more info, though. One opening I see is boots' mention of discontent at CFC over the sharing of intel, we could use this to learn some more about the different voices in CFC (heck, they are a potential ally, we should delve into their internal politics when have a chance to...), so far we've been fed mostly from OctX, and this has to change if we want to see where the wind blows in the lands of our neighbors to be.

	13-11-2003 03:36									#321
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10 months of demo gaming did not brace me for by far the most sleazy and pathetic chat I have ever had in my entire history here:

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...102#post2481102

This guy Goonie is nuts.

1) He lied to us saying he was ambassador. He is not, according to OctX until turn 136.

2) I truly bit my lip trying to act in the most diplomatic and cordial way possible because I wanted him to make an ass out of himself without any external assistance. I have also e-mailed that log to OctX so he doesn't come up with any crap saying we were the crazy ones.

3) I honestly propose that we do not take crap from him again. I know I will not if he brings up another issue so rudely and offensively again. If that happens not only will I not hesitate in giving him a verbal b*tch slapping, but I suggest we kindly e-mail the CFC leadership asking for his removal as ambassador. Relationships with CFC have been great so far and this jackass seems hell bent in destroying it singlehandedly.

Nuff said.

-MZ

	13-11-2003 03:58									#322
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Agreed. Just read through the whole chat, and I don't think any future dealing with Goonie will be possible. If that is the way he intends to handle diplomatic affairs, there is no hope for a relation with CFC. I would request we be appointed a new ambassador in the meantime. And heaven forbid if Goonie actually gets a position higher in the CFC government, then we know they truly are adopting an anti-Apolyton stance.

	13-11-2003 04:00									#323
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Absolutely agreed.

We SHOULD NOT deal with Goonie any longer. He is not the official representative of his team and therefore does not speak for his team, and until someone in the CFC leadership confirms that he is official, we should very politely refrain from negotiating with him or dealing with his issues.

SHOULD he be given some sort of official position, we need to petition the leadership of CFC to remove him, as we refuse to negotiate or deal with HIM ... anyone else on their team is fine, but he has lied to us, attempted to mislead us, and bullied us in an unprofessional and rude fashion.

Public opinion about CFC is going to plummet and the people on are team are going to (rightfully) call for war on CFC if this crap continues.

--Togas

	13-11-2003 04:08									#324
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My two (greatly devalued) cents:

Ask to conduct negotiations with their Foreign Minister directly. Ignore anything he sends in the meantime. Tell CFC that we don't recognize Goonie as the ambassador, and tell Goonie to try this ambassador thing once he hits puberty. (And yes, I'm suggesting that we should use those exact words to Goonie. As best as I can tell, he has done nothing to merit otherwise.)

	13-11-2003 04:16									#325
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Wow, I'm pissed that I'm sitting here at school and get to miss this whole fiasco. As soon as I get home (and with Togas's permission), I will draft a letter to Octavian and CFC telling them that for better or for worse, we will not deal with Goonie. If CFC wants to continue dealing with us, we respectfully request that Goonie is removed/prohibited from dealing with us further.

I would even go so far as to actually banning Goonie from our chat room, but that is just me...

	13-11-2003 04:23									#326
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I hate Goonie's attitude just as much as anyone else, but I don't think we should outright insult him. Instead, we should remain diplomatic and just not talk to him; inform CFC that we do not recognise him as their ambassador and note that we feel discussions and negotiations could be conducted more smoothly with someone else.

	13-11-2003 04:29									#327
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short continued chat with OctX and Goonie present where I dealt with the issue:

quote: Togas> OctX, I've just finished talking to MZ and the others about this situation. Togas> As FAM of Apolyton, I've asked my people not to deal with or negotiate with Goonie until such a time that an official from CFC lets us know, officially, that he has been appointed to speak to us and that he represents CFC. Togas> furthermore, I STRONGLY advise that he not be given any ambassadorial position to Apolyton. Today's very angry discussion has really set back CFC/Apolyton relations and I fear that further arguments like this will seriously damage our relations MZ[Cooking]> everything was going fine until now, this shouldn't have happened Togas> I'm sure Goonie has very strong opinions and wants to advocate them for his team, but I really feel that his argument with MZ today was in handled poorly. MZ[Cooking]> this was not a way to diplomatically push for things. Not by threatening and being rude MZ[Cooking]> we will of course discuss and vote on any proposal you guys send our way, but there's no incentive when someone comes here with that attitude Togas> Anyhow, I am by no means trying to tell you or CFC what to do. I am just advising based on what I have read and the reaction it has caused within my team's forum. Goonie> " CFC overall hates" I never said that. I stated that most people were disappointed at it Octavian_X> Goonie, let's at least agree to disagree for the moment. I'll post an official poll on the subject shortly. Goonie> I have already agreed to that Goonie> But I am the ambassador as per election results Octavian_X> Not yet. Goonie> And I hope Apolyton understands this. Octavian_X> Turn 136 is when term 4 begins. Togas> Apolyton will wait until CFC settles this issue. Please let me know when it has been officially resolved. Goonie> wait Goonie> listen Goonie> I was not angry. I understand the need for our two nations to work toghther Goonie> I was simply trying my best to push a proposal Togas> And Goonie, for both of our sakes, I hope that you will give up your claim to be our ambassador. Goonie> now that is over, I wish to move on to the alliance matter Goonie> Wow boy. Why? E_T> let's hear what he has to say, I'm kind of curious Goonie> Listen. Over chats it is hard to hear voices Goonie> I may have sounded angry, but I was not. Goonie> I was simply pushing for a deal. Goonie> now that is dead I want to move on. Goonie> I was not trying to be rude, and to be honest I am hurt you took it that way. Togas> we are both hurt. Togas> please, deal with this situation internally at CFC. Togas> and return to us after it is handled. Goonie> There is nothing to deal wiht at Fanatikou. What alarms me is the way you perceived my actions Goonie> I was not trying to be rude E_T> Goonie, let me try to put into terms that you can understand Goonie> but unfortunately I must be going * Goonie has quit IRC (Quit: )

	13-11-2003 05:03									#328
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One thing that has come out, from OctX is that Goonie IS to be our Ambassidor by means of a resent Election in their Forum. And the really had thing is that his term (currently) will last for 45 turns!!!!

I would destroy CFC myself (send militant workers... ) if I had to deal with this child for that long of a time frame.

E_T

	13-11-2003 06:07									#329
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On behalf of those members who want to war with CFC, I want to keep Goonie as our ambassador.

Secondly, I wish to petition the consuls to allow Panag back into our team, and allow him to take over CFC ambassadorship.

Goonie vs Panag

Either we will war, or both teams will end up gifting all cities to GCA.

	13-11-2003 06:16									#330
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Agreed. I'm not a member of the FAM here, though I sometimes wish I was - I simply lack the available "Chat room" time for such a function. If I were (which I'm not, nor am I trying to shoe in) this is how I would send a letter to them.

Again, I am not trying to horn in on anyone. This is just the best way I can express my feelings on this without resorting to some pretty harsh remarks on Goonie.



Respected and honorable colleagues of Fanatikou:

Our two nations have worked together in a spirit of cooperation which, at the present time and probably for the entirety of the ISDG, will be unrivalled. First and foremost, we congratulate and thank you for your excellent judgement, and look forward to continued mutually beneficial relations in the future. Clearly, our history of such relations so far has made us both the mighty nations that we are today.

However, our nation is now gravely concerned about the future of our mutually beneficial relationship. A recently announced elected official in your empire has met with members of our own highly respected foreign relations team with disastrous results. While it may be true that the meeting in question was marred by misunderstandings, the damage that Ambassador-in-waiting Goonie did to his own standing - and the standing of our two nations! - in his initial address with us was very substantial. While we feel the damage to the relations between our nations is certainly repairable - no one would be so foolish as to cast aside all we have gained for one incident - we are also relatively certain that the damage Goonie has done to his own reputation with Apolyton is NOT repairable.

We are gravely concerned that the mutually beneficial relationship we now share with most respected Fanatikou would be seriously threatened - if not destroyed altogether - due to future misunderstandings with Ambassador-in-waiting Goonie. Unfortunately, because of the significant self-inflicted damage to Ambassador Goonie's reputation (which the entire Apolyton team is aware of, rendering a reappointment of our own staff fruitless - the outcry against this Ambassador is considerable) we are relatively certain that future misunderstandings in dealings with Ambassador Goonie would occur, and occur frequently.

If we may be so frank, we have higher respect for the elected officials - and the will of the people of Fanatikou - than this representative, since we would never refer to your President as a "pet of Apolyton" as he has done.

Consequently, at this time we are unable to conduct negotiations in the presence of, or through, Ambassador-in-waiting Goonie. We do not envision this situation changing in the future. We recognize the considerable inconvenience this may cause and apologize, but we feel the future of our two great nations is more important than one man, and we cannot allow any one man to stand in the way of our excellent, mutually beneficial relationship. We look forward to such a time when the situation at hand may be addressed, and we can continue our excellent, mutually beneficial relationship into the forseeable future and beyond.

Regards,
XXXXXX of Apolyton


Anyhow, that's how I'd put it to them. I dunno, maybe Ming slapped down Goonie really hard a long time ago or something, but that guy has it out for us. Making him our ambassador is like making a Ku Klux Klan representative the Ambassador to the NAACP.