24-10-2003 03:44									#271
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I haven't seen OctX in the past few days. When he does get online i'll se what i can do.

	27-10-2003 22:25									#272
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Chat Summary

Last night we had a chat with a lot of the CFC people. I put three issues on the agenda: techs, alliances, and borders. Here's what we more or less "agreed" on:

Techs - I raised the idea of a gunpowder/theo trade (them doing gunpowder). It seemed acceptable to them. This idea was discussed with nye and the rest of the team a while before the chat.

Alliances - I again mentioned the idea of a more formal alliance, they of course were VERY happy with that idea. This would include obviously a NAP, a MPP, tech coordination, diplomatic coordination, etc. In other words stick together so the other continent won't get ahead of us.

Borders - The touchy subject. We agreed that in principle lands west of BoP will go to CFC while lands east of BoP will be ours. The issue of BoP is still in the air. CFC wants BoP so it can build ships inside the lake and send them outside. We want BoP for security concerns (though they have equal concerns). I'm thinking that perhaps a middle ground is some sort of agreement regarding these security concerns. Some ideas that were floated:

> Alternating ownership
> Demilitarized zone
> City/fortress scheme (one side gets the city, the other side gets to build a fort directly on the other side).
> First to get there keeps it


Chat is posted in the correspondance thread.
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...5&goto=lastpost

Last edited by Master Zen on 27-10-2003 at 22:41

	28-10-2003 14:42									#273
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What about the lands west of the northern chokepoint? Where will we establish the border in that area?

	28-10-2003 16:40									#274
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The idea is that all land East of both chokepoints at BOP and EQ would be ours, all land West of these two points CFC's, with the only bones of contention being EQ and BOP themselves. Discussion is certainly leaning towards offering EQ to CFC and they relinquish any claim on BOP, which we would control. We have also been discussing a fort for on a Mountain East of EQ.

Thus, we would have no land in the area East of EQ. Remember, we don't need the silks there with this partition, as silks exist south of Anarchy in GCA.

So far, no-one has paid much attention to the islands West of CFC's core. These would do us very little good except for the Iron, so I would favour offering unquestioned rights on these to CFC as well as an additional sweetener (they want land - it's right next to their core...), except perhaps allowing us the icy island soe we can have one more of the Irons.

	28-10-2003 17:12									#275
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Thus, we would have no land in the area East of EQ.

"West" you mean?

	28-10-2003 18:38									#276
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Erm, yes. It's all the same to me at 2:30 in the morning.

	07-11-2003 04:24									#277
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Had a short chat with Bootstoots from the CFC team:

They spent a bunch of their money investigating GCA cities in the west, including BoP (screenshot attached).

They and GCA are negotiating a NAP right now. However, Boots promised me that they would stall on the discussions until they were ready to attack.

I informed Boots that we would need them to investigate Catchopolis for us in a few turns and that we would finance the investigation.

	07-11-2003 04:41									#278
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One pike!!

	07-11-2003 06:00									#279
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Remember this?

quote: Apolyton - Fanatikou Technology/Gold trade Agreement In order to speed up preparations for our joint campaign against our common enemy, GCA, as well as ensure convergence in Apolyton and Fanatikou's technological position and world relations, our two teams hereby agree on the following trade agreement: Apolyton agrees to trade the following to Fanatikou: - The technologies of Republic and Engineering (as soon as aquired from GWT) Fanatikou agrees to trade the following to Apolyton: - 180g given immediately after receiving Apolyton's offer - 60g given 5 turns later - The technology of Monotheism once researched Furthermore: - Fanatikou shall by no means agree to any technology trade or gifting to GCA. - Fanatikou agrees to a 10 turn moratorium before agreeing on any type of trade with GWT - Apolyton agrees to ensure the survival of CFC by gifting a city should CFC find itself on the verge of defeat. - Apolyton agrees to share information regarding war buildup and preliminations. We await your prompt reply on this matter. May skill and luck reward you in your war efforts until the time both our nations may move forward together in victory. -Master Zen Deputy Foreign Affairs Minister of Apolyton

According to info posted in the communications thread by BF, CGN will have Mono in about 4 turns. From info I got from Octy NOW, CFC will have it in 12. CFC will give us Mono as part of a deal we have standing with them (above), a deal forwhich we have fulfilled every obligation except giving them Eng, which we will do this next turn.

So what do we do? We don't get Invention for 26 odd-more turns, so we will have no techs to trade with CGN.

Currently I believe if CGN approaches us with Mono we politely decline as we have nothing to trade them for it at this time, and we have a standing agreement with CFC for it. Whether we tell CGN of the CFC deal or not is debatable. It hardly matters much if we get Mono 8 turns later - we don't need Cathedrals, and we will be researching Invention for a while yet.

	10-11-2003 01:29									#280
	Farming out Workers to CFC, after the war Increase Your PM Length

As part of the upcoming increased co-operation with CFC after the war, there was a little bit of discussion (on our side) about sending our Industrious Workers into their lands and doing Tile Improvements for them.

If we do this, I think that 1 GPT per Native Worker (or maybe 1 GPT per 2 workers, Native or Slave) for every turn that they are on their side of the cultural border (or West of the Chokepoints), would be fair. I would support that and issue orders, given their list of things they want done.

MoI E_T

	10-11-2003 01:58									#281
	CFC is now at war with GCA Enter the AD-FREE zone

See this post in the FA correspondences thread about it.

E_T

	10-11-2003 02:06									#282
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E_T... you mean 1-2gpt EXTRA fee per worker, above the 1gpt upkeep we pay for them ourselves, right?

	10-11-2003 03:16									#283
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I mean that if we are thinking about possibly sending workers over to help them out (as worthy partners that they will be), that we should get SOME compensation for their work. They won't be doing anything for us AND we will still be paying for them.

E_T

	10-11-2003 03:21									#284
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Uh... can't they just build their own once the war is over? They do have that 2-turn growth thing known as Shen Ling that we don't and could rack up 5 new Workers from just there in 10 turns...

We have a lot more jungle to chop than they have tiles to road...

	10-11-2003 03:32									#285
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They have shown that they are inept when it comes to the power of the worker, why would it be any different after GCA is over? They will likely be REX'ing to fill up that space, so they won't have workers to spare.

E_T

	10-11-2003 03:40									#286
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It is good to build up our relations with CFC but I wouldn't be giving them to many workers. If we are going to win the game which I think we will we need to get this jungle cleared.

	10-11-2003 03:54									#287
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quote: Originally posted by E_T They have shown that they are inept when it comes to the power of the worker, why would it be any different after GCA is over? They will likely be REX'ing to fill up that space, so they won't have workers to spare. E_T

And?

What about our terrain and our tiles? We have more to do than they do.

	10-11-2003 04:11									#288
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Trip I am awair of this, but we have (and will have more) a lot of workers now and the jungle is coming down. I really doubt that they can afford more than 2 teams of 2, but if it allows us to get Income while we have them doing something to possibly help our wartorn partner to be fitting of our partnership, then we shoud look at it.

Also, if anything will help to keep them from being suspicious and distrustful of us, this is a good step in that direction.

E_T

	10-11-2003 05:51									#289
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I'm not big on loaning our workers to CFC. CFC and APO are not yet eternal allies. Our own land still needs improvements. When all improvements are done, then we can loan them some workers.

	10-11-2003 06:00									#290
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Listen, the reason that we are talking about this, is that we can say to them, Look we want to help, how about we send some of our workers over to you.... during the next series of talks.

They will likely refuse, but the gesture is possibly enough to get then to trust us more. THAT is what we want, so that we don't have to worry too much about a backstab! The longer that they think they can trust us, the later it will be before they will attempt something.

The worst time that they can attempt to hurt us, is when we are in the middle of moving our Palace AND still REXing like bunnies. It;s the Uncertanties that I was to reduce (can't fully eliminate them), but if it's enough to give us time, then they will not be any threat, no matter what they will do.

E_T

	10-11-2003 06:15									#291
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CFC can hurt us with Riders. Until we get Gunpowder, an effective defense against them at the choke points, we should not help them to increase their capacity to produce Riders. The likelyhood of CFC attacking us still exists once they get Chivalry. That chance will persist for a while. I'm all for making CFC believe in us, we will even be giving them good trade deals in order to faciltate moving up the tech tree faster.

On a seperate note, even though CFC has said they will go for Chiv after Mono, I'm thinking that CGN might want it a littel quicker seeing as how GWT will be making a beeline for it as well. It may be better to have CFC go after Theology and let them trade that to us for Invention and for them to aquire Chiv through a trade to CGN or us after a no trade clause has ended for CGN.

	10-11-2003 09:03									#292
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Nuclear_Master> Octavian do you have the BoP investigation handy?
Octavion_X> Sorry, I'm not allowed to hand that information atm.
Octavion_X> I had to fight for the info I did pass on
Nuclear_Master> The old one?
Octavion_X> For 30 AD?
Nuclear_Master> Yes
Octavion_X> Like I said, sorry. About half of our team is still hesitant with our relations with Apolyton.


Some rather depressing news

	11-11-2003 00:37									#293
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Cheetah from CFC wants us to collaberate to come up with names for our continent, landmarks, seas, etc.

Now that we have sent CFC our map we can show them civman's world map with all of the names, though Cheetah was very adamant in saying that CFC was NOT China.

	11-11-2003 01:01									#294
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master Nuclear_Master> Octavian do you have the BoP investigation handy? Octavion_X> Sorry, I'm not allowed to hand that information atm. Octavion_X> I had to fight for the info I did pass on Nuclear_Master> The old one? Octavion_X> For 30 AD? Nuclear_Master> Yes Octavion_X> Like I said, sorry. About half of our team is still hesitant with our relations with Apolyton. Some rather depressing news

Just more proof that they DO intend to bash us in the head when they think they have the best possible chance....

	11-11-2003 02:36									#295
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quote: Cheetah from CFC wants us to collaberate to come up with names for our continent, landmarks, seas, etc. Now that we have sent CFC our map we can show them civman's world map with all of the names, though Cheetah was very adamant in saying that CFC was NOT China.

! BTW, did my map ever get sent to CGN?

	11-11-2003 02:38									#296
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Another somewhat distressing quote from that chat:

quote: [BigFree] Who declared war then? [Nuclear_Master] GCA [Octavian_X] No, it was us. [Octavian_X] Our offensive was ready, we had gathered intelligence, and were ready to strike.

Before they were claiming it was GCA who actually declared war.

Also, they knew we wanted an investigation of Catchopolis soon yet they didn't even consult us on the fact that they were going to invade. All of the sudden, "oh yeah, we invaded last turn, just thought we'd tell you before GCA did."

	11-11-2003 02:39									#297
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 ! BTW, did my map ever get sent to CGN?

No idea, but I did just give CFC (Cheetah) the link at their request.

	11-11-2003 02:53									#298
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I sent CFC our WM, in game, "accepted." I also sent along this small note trying to regain their confidence in APO.

quote: Grettings. We have sent you our World Map "accepted" as a sign of continuing goodwill towards the Nation of China. I wish you very good luck against GCA's forces. The claim on that land they now occupy was rightly yours and we are glad to see CFC reclaim it. We are hoping that you will send us your World Map as well. BigFree Consul of Apolyton

civman2000: If you want to send them your map, I have no problem with that.

	11-11-2003 13:55									#299
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quote: [16:20] [Bootstoots] btw, if Goonie's proposal doesn't go through, myself (and probably the majority of the team) would be satisfied with the original proposal, though it would be nice if we got BoP [16:33] [WhiteBandit] who is in charge of your FAM? Goonie? [16:33] [Bootstoots] Zarn is, Goonie doesn't hold any position right now as he just came out of "retirement" for a few months

This guy is a riot.

	11-11-2003 23:09									#300
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Gotta admit, they guy's got balls.

Comes out of retirement, gets pissed at what his team has been done in the meantime, and has the nerve to go out on his own to negotiate something different.

If we ever declare war on CFC all we need as an excuse is that Goonie is a loonie. Btw, notice in the chat the FAM's not-so-subtle attempts at swaying popular opinion in favor of OctavianX among CFCers. I think we're the only FAM in this game actively trying to influence other teams' internal politics!

As Arnelos put it, "I feel like the Chinese making campaign contributions to Clinton".