24-09-2003 21:38									#121
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Thanks for verifying that Harry. The revised plan with the chop included sounds good to me.

	26-09-2003 20:34									#122
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quote: Originally posted by HarryH I checked over Roth's plan for Hope. We can get one forest chopped before the granary build. If we did two we would waste shields. Next turn we chop the shielded grassland. If it goes to Hope then we wait on the other grassland until the granary is completed. If the shielded grassland chop goes to Renewal then we plant and chop the other grassland tile.

Hey Harry, I had completely forgotten about the "switch to wonder" tactic for directing the location of a forest chop. This thread reminded me so if you want to take a look at it before the turn is played we should be able to get the shields where we want. Forest chop location thread

	26-09-2003 20:53									#123
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Does it really matter? Both cities could use the shields. If the chop on the shielded grassland goes to Renewal we still have enough time to plant and chop the other grassland tile for Hope.

Edit: I also posted some info in that thread.

Last edited by HarryH on 26-09-2003 at 21:06

	26-09-2003 21:26									#124
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Okay, as long as there is enough time. When I played the last turn it was 4 turns (I believe) to city growth with continuing to work the fish tile the whole time. I don't have the save in front of me or I'd try to work it out with all the worker movements so I'll just leave it to your expertise.

BTW, since it is almost the weekend are you going to post turn orders in case one of us plays the save? Once all the chopping is done it shouldn't be quite as necessary, but I'm not sure which tiles have already been chopped without going back through the past few pages of turn reports.

Oh, and like last week I will be around most of the weekend except for Saturday afternoon. If I come home and the save is in our hands but hasn't been played yet I can go ahead and play it with Harry's turn orders.

	26-09-2003 23:59									#125
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The growth will slow down by two turns when we switch to use the hill. The chopping will either be done this turn or in three turns depending on whether or not the shield chop goes to Hope.

It looks like the save will not arrive before I head out. I will post info when I get home tonight.

	27-09-2003 06:49									#126
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I am getting ready to head out for another weekend. Next weekend is free so I should be home for that one. My two week trip planned for October fell apart so I will be back to doing weekends after the one free weekend. After I get back on Monday I should have some time to get back to doing Civ stuff, maybe I will even have some time to tell you about the interesting stuff that happened last weekend and why I didn't get back on Monday as planned.

Info for next turn:

Two workers on shielded grassland should still be planting the forest. Move the three workers on the hill onto the shield tile, one to complete the forest and two to start chopping. Move the three workers on grassland SE of Hope to shield tile to chop the forest. This should complete the chop. Take note of which city gets the bonus.

Workers on gold hill should complete mine this turn. This will reduce the time for Resurrection to complete its harbor. Next turn they road the hill.

The worker in the forest next to Phoenix will continue to build a road.

When Memory's border expands make sure its citizen is moved to the whale tile. Move the laborer in Seabiscuit to the horse hill. No change to other cities yet.

	27-09-2003 15:35									#127
	Turn 270 played Tired of ads?

I played it per Harry's recommendations of course. The culture of Memory expanded and the whale tile is now being worked. Population growth in 4 turns. Seabiscuit is now working the horse tile (as it should be ). The shielded grassland tile near Hope and Renewal was forested and chopped with the shields going to Renewal. I assume next turn five workers will move SW one tile to plant the forest and then the others will begin the chop which will be finished the turn afterward.

We currently have 119 gold with 16 gpt. Printing Press in 23 turns. I checked a few of our harbor builds to see about rushing any (not that I was going to, I just wanted to see if there was that possibility yet), but they are all too expensive at this time.

Voxtavia
Status of Bob

Last edited by Rhothaerill on 27-09-2003 at 22:31

	27-09-2003 18:17									#128
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Rhoth.

I was just looking at the save, and one thing I notice is that if we switch one of the New Voice's labourers from a one shield grassland to the three shield hill tile now freed up by Seabiscuit, we can shave a turn off the marketplace construction at the cost of two food.

As of this turn, 22 shields were needed. New Voice was producing 6, so next turn will leave 16 remaining. The switch will boost production to 8, and get it done in two turns, at the cost of the food. Probably worth it.

And this will let Irony use the tile for a couple turns for growth as well. In fact - with the Irony consideration, we may want to review whether we leave like this for the next while.

Also - I have lost track of what we have forested and chopped around Hope as well. It grows in 3 turns, so we will need a mine on one of the plains tiles soon.

There - enough micro management for a bit. I have to admit - this resettlement has been a good education in how to wring the most from mediocre terrain.

	27-09-2003 22:23									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Beta Rhoth. I was just looking at the save, and one thing I notice is that if we switch one of the New Voice's labourers from a one shield grassland to the three shield hill tile now freed up by Seabiscuit, we can shave a turn off the marketplace construction at the cost of two food. As of this turn, 22 shields were needed. New Voice was producing 6, so next turn will leave 16 remaining. The switch will boost production to 8, and get it done in two turns, at the cost of the food. Probably worth it. And this will let Irony use the tile for a couple turns for growth as well. In fact - with the Irony consideration, we may want to review whether we leave like this for the next while. Also - I have lost track of what we have forested and chopped around Hope as well. It grows in 3 turns, so we will need a mine on one of the plains tiles soon. There - enough micro management for a bit. I have to admit - this resettlement has been a good education in how to wring the most from mediocre terrain.

Ooh nice! Looks good to me. I agree that the food cost of completing the marketplace is worth it. Plus your plan provides us with no wasted shields in New Voice. I just took another look at the save to make sure none of those shields end up in waste and they don't (oh yeah, it's our capitol ). Irony's time to population growth is cut in half if we continue with this way, and it's harbor will have nine turns shaved off of it.

My only concern was that for the Hope granary plan to work we have to move a New Voice citizen off of the other mined hill tile. But we don't have to do that for two turns so we should be good to go to get the marketplace in and then switch the hill tile over to Hope for two turns. If my calculations are correct, after two turns of Hope's citizen on the fish tile, the forest chop that will happen two turns from now, and then two turns of mined hill the granary will be completed with no shield waste there either. BTW, that should allay your concerns over needing the mined grass right away at Hope since it will take roughly five turns to grow with the revised plan Harry cooked up from my plan. (two turns of fish tile, three turns of hill tile...provides no wasted shields other than city waste while building granary, and no wasted food either...and gives plenty of time to finish a mine).

The only problem is that New Voice would either have to work an unimproved hill for a few turns or we'd switch Irony back to it's coast tile for those turns. I'm of the opinion to let New Voice work an unimproved hill to get Irony's harbor quicker. Once it has it's harbor it can grow without the need for the grass tile near New Voice.

Yes it has been a good education. Kudos to Harry for all his legwork in setting up the forest chop strategy the entire time. I admit to not using it very much in my SP games, but then I've never had to relocate to a brand new land midway through the game before.

	27-09-2003 22:36									#130
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Rhoth - I agree that the granary should take precedence.

Understand about the mining of the grassland tile.

And yes - kudos to Harry!

btw - looking forward to the next demogame, I for one would like to keep Vox sort of intact. Maybe rename it Vox Populae and go for a builder/culture approach.

And maybe snag one or two more strat guys from GS.

	27-09-2003 22:42									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Beta btw - looking forward to the next demogame, I for one would like to keep Vox sort of intact. Maybe rename it Vox Populae and go for a builder/culture approach. And maybe snag one or two more strat guys from GS.

Cool idea Beta! Of course, the next demogame won't probably happen for a while...but at least we can get the ground work started for the next one.

	27-09-2003 22:44									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Beta Rhoth - I agree that the granary should take precedence. Understand about the mining of the grassland tile. And yes - kudos to Harry! btw - looking forward to the next demogame, I for one would like to keep Vox sort of intact. Maybe rename it Vox Populae and go for a builder/culture approach. And maybe snag one or two more strat guys from GS.

There is another one starting? Is there talk of a new one after Conquests comes out?

That would be interesting to keep Vox mostly intact if there is one. We're sort of spread out in the PTWDGII teams.

	30-09-2003 22:25									#133
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The save is still with GoW, but it still may come to us tonight. I will not be able to play it as it is my wife's birthday, and I haven't seen Harry around this week. So just in case that happens and Harry can't play it I'll give a few turn orders.

The stack of workers on the shielded grassland near Hope should all move SW (1 on the keypad). The first 5 will plant forest, while the rest (should be 3 I believe but I don't have the save in front of me) will begin chopping the forest. Don't move the Hope citizen off the fish tile quite yet. We will go with Beta's plan for New Voice by moving one of the citizens off of the grassland tile to the mined hill tile. Along with that, the citizen in Irony will work the grassland tile that New Voice opened up.

The three workers on the gold hill near Memory should road that tile.

The veteran immortal and our galleys should continue moving toward the Memory/Seabiscuit area.

I believe that should be about it, but again I don't have the save in front of me so I could be missing something. If something comes up, use your best judgment. Harry if you see this before the turn is played feel free to add anything.

	01-10-2003 02:12									#134
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OK - I'm here all this evening and tomorrow morning.

Happy B-day to Mrs Rhoth.

	01-10-2003 02:50									#135
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I am here. Been reading and watching the turn sent thread so I know the turn is coming. Have a few things to say but have not had the time to post. Got other things out of the way last night. Will have time for posting tonight.

	02-10-2003 01:45									#136
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I am still here

I thought I wasn't because I am banned for a long length of time

but apparently not here

:beer:

Jon Miller

	02-10-2003 02:37									#137
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Ok, What did you do this time Jon?

	02-10-2003 03:17									#138
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Yes - tell us Jon. Inquiring minds want to know.

	02-10-2003 04:00									#139
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Rhoth and Harry - note that GoW contacted me and would like a cost on investigating Pamplona for this turn.

	02-10-2003 08:10									#140
	Put an end to popups!

Just received the save. I'll go ahead and play it since no one else is around. Lego offered us Education-accepted.

	02-10-2003 08:49									#141
	Turn 280 played Get a bigger avatar today!

As I mentioned above the turn began with Lego offering us Education accepted. I clicked accept and went on. As soon as I finish with this note I'm going to PM a thank you to Vondrack as well as inform him of our 22 turn projection for Printing Press. If they can get us banking by then, we can immediately start on Democracy.

Worker actions: Worker finishes road to Phoenix. 3 workers roaded gold hill tile near Memory. 5 workers plant forest NE of Hope. 3 workers mine grassland SE of Hope. The 5 workers on the forest can chop it next turn, setting us up very nicely for the granary in Hope. I had originally planned to have the remaining 3 workers start the chop, but decided not to get into messing with worker actions next turn (just in case ). Once the forest is chopped that should be all of the possible tiles north of the New Voice.

Citizen Planning: Citizen in the New Voice switched to mined hill tile. Marketplace will be complete in two turns. Citizen in Irony switched from coast to mined grassland with corresponding bump in food and shields. I checked through each build queue and none of the harbors can be rushed yet. Only the library in Phoenix can be rushed, but I don't think that's worth it since we have many tiles down there to chop still. Better to save the gold for harbors. We currently have 137 gold, 18gpt, and Printing Press in 22 turns.

Miscellaneous: The war on Bob doesn't look too much different than last turn. If Hot_Enamel was correct in his PM to me then RP is taking the offensive. That's good since we want a nice long bloody-for-all-sides war. Also, Lego has built the town of Invoice on the chokepoint south of Panama Vox.


Lego's offer
Voxtavia
Panama Vox
The Bobian War

	02-10-2003 17:20									#142
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Re: Hopes Granary

Rhoth - yes - looks good. There are 20 shields to go. 18 after this turn. 8 after we chop the forest. One more turn with two shields takes it to six and then two turns at 3 shields and we are done. That means three turns from next turn.

Any thoughts on changing Resurrection to a library (4 turns)?

And was I just imagining this - but does building an aqueduct in a city allow you to irrigate adjacent tiles. I cannot find anything in the civilpeoadia on this, so I presume it was just wishful thinking on my part.

Also - I think Lego mentioned astronomy as well. It would be useful so we could start hunting for some islands to settle. There are usually a couple out there.

	02-10-2003 18:51									#143
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Roth,

Good job with the turn. I checked for it in the evening a couple of times. It must have been before the turn arrived, then I took a break to watch Enterprise and didn't come back.

Re rushing: Our next project to rush is the harbor in Memory so we can take more advantage of the whale tile.

Re Bob war: Things are changing. Note that in the last few turns GS has given RP the rest of their cities back. There used to be an RP city controlled by GoW on the coast south of the existing RP cities. Now there is a razed city spot there. I suspect GoW and ND are getting pushed back by GS and RP.

	02-10-2003 19:01									#144
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Resurrection will be limited to size 2 without a harbor. I was thinking harbor first, then library. When we get to doing serious research we can give the gold hill to Memory for the library benefit.

An aqueduct does not allow you to irrigate adjacent tiles. If the city tile has access to water then you can irrigate the other side of the city. No water, no irrigation.

Lego has astronomy. I don't think they have banking or are researching it. I believe they are heading up the lower path, either to complete all the other required techs or to get Military Tradition.

	02-10-2003 19:08									#145
	Got spare money?

There is one more tile to chop in the north. It is the mined tile next to Renewal. That was the turn Beta played and he started mining it before we planted the forest. After those five workers chop the forest next to Hope they should move to that tile next to Renewal to plant and chop there.

	02-10-2003 23:28									#146
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quote: Originally posted by HarryH Resurrection will be limited to size 2 without a harbor. I was thinking harbor first, then library. When we get to doing serious research we can give the gold hill to Memory for the library benefit.

Agreed, harbors should be the first thing for the rest of the cities in the north as they will not be able to grow without them...especially Memory since it only has hill and mountain tiles near it. Since a few libraries won't speed up our research while we're doing the one scientist research option the harbors are definitely better.

	03-10-2003 01:10									#147
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BTW, per Beta's email the other day we're also sending the savegame to Sharpe and lmtoops of Lego. My email wasn't going through to lmtoops so I PMed him. I didn't know this before but apparently his screen name and email address start with a small 'L' not a capitol 'I'. I posted this just in case anyone else didn't know that.

	03-10-2003 21:10									#148
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

harbors are nice

as to what I did? I got real drunk and posted (and I am considered a troublemaker which also added into it)

just wondering how long I will be out for

Jon Miller

	03-10-2003 21:15									#149
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Well, a least you still have access to this forum...I guess that's one of the perks of being a Moderator for this forum.

Didn't Ming, MtG, Mark, Dan, or who ever send you an email letting you know of your ban (and how long it will last)?

	05-10-2003 08:36									#150
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I and Ming have had several PMs

it is until such a time as I admit that I am a troublemaker and he is certain that I will not continue to be a problem

Jon miller